Sine Wave inverter fitting

[Hymerbell]

I had a sine wave 1000w inverter fitted to my MH a while back and am about to have one fitted to my new (to me) MH. Think I’ll have a 1500w one this time as I have 2 100aH leisure batteries now instead of one...don’t know if that makes sense. At the time I was told that if I was on hookup I should unplug the lead on the ECB or was it if I WAS on hookup up if I was using the inverter. Can’t remember why, something about fridge would be being powered by two means inverter AND hookup.

Sorry to be so vague but just can’t remember. Question is can’t I just have an inverter fitted that when I use it it uses that and when I am on hookup it uses that. Why do I ever have to unplug the lead on the ECB.

 

[Reallyretired]

You certainly dont want anything powered by both mains and inverter as apart from anything else they will be out of phase with each other. I just have a simple changeover switch, though others have more complicated automatic arrangements.

 

[autorouter]

Not sure what the ECB is exactly but does it contain a mains charger that charges the leisure batteries? If it does then powering it by the the inverter means the battery charger is powered by the inverter which is powered from the batteries. Switching off the battery charger would work instead of unplugging it.

That's in addition to the problem Reallyretired says about connecting the mains and inverter at the same time. Most inverters are 'off-line', and are not synchronised to the mains so can't be connected at the same time.

Some 'grid-tied' inverters are designed to be connected to the mains at the same time. Victron Multiplus charger/inverters for example.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Grid tie inverters are for house systems where you feed excess power into the grid and get paid for it. Never heard of one in a van ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Below is a link to what I did in my Hymer.
If you are going to use the inverter to anything like its capacity and you want your batteries to last I would fit another couple of batteries. At full chat allowing for inverter efficiency, you will be drawing around 150 amps. You don't want to be drawing more than 30-40 amps out of each battery.

Lenny's Modding the new Gin Palace

What temperature do you set the controller to switch on the fans Lenny? On the last van I found set to 35 deg worked well fans came on when ambient was 25deg, so I will start there and see how in goes. I think I set the hysteresis to 2 deg the standard setting of 5 is a bit wide. Sorry @Lenny...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

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[eddie]

I had a sine wave 1000w inverter fitted to my MH a while back and am about to have one fitted to my new (to me) MH. Think I’ll have a 1500w one this time as I have 2 100aH leisure batteries now instead of one...don’t know if that makes sense. At the time I was told that if I was on hookup I should unplug the lead on the ECB or was it if I WAS on hookup up if I was using the inverter. Can’t remember why, something about fridge would be being powered by two means inverter AND hookup.

Sorry to be so vague but just can’t remember. Question is can’t I just have an inverter fitted that when I use it it uses that and when I am on hookup it uses that. Why do I ever have to unplug the lead on the ECB.

You shouldn’t have to unplug anything, if it is installed correctly.

 

[Hymerbell]

You shouldn’t have to unplug anything, if it is installed correctly.

I think it was installed correctly by Solar Solutions in Wimborne...they are very reputable. It had a switch on it so I could turn it off and on. Perhaps it was just someone telling me to take the lead out of the ECB in case I switched it on and then went on hookup as well....something like that. Perhaps it didn’t get installed with an automatic switch if that’s possible. I was just wanting to see if this time it could be installed so that if I did go somewhere and hooked up that the Inverter would automatically be switched off....getting forgetful in my old age...

 

[Lenny HB]

I was just wanting to see if this time it could be installed so that if I did go somewhere and hooked up that the Inverter would automatically be switched off....getting forgetful in my old age...

If you look at my wiring when on 12v the output from the inverter is connected to all the 240v sockets but not to the fridge or Elektroblock. When I plug into EHU the relay changes over and the sockets are connected to the incoming mains (via the consumer unit).

 

[eddie]

I think it was installed correctly by Solar Solutions in Wimborne...they are very reputable. It had a switch on it so I could turn it off and on. Perhaps it was just someone telling me to take the lead out of the ECB in case I switched it on and then went on hookup as well....something like that. Perhaps it didn’t get installed with an automatic switch if that’s possible. I was just wanting to see if this time it could be installed so that if I did go somewhere and hooked up that the Inverter would automatically be switched off....getting forgetful in my old age...

Properly installed, the inverter should be able to be on, and the van plugged into hook up, no need to unplug anything or worry about forgetting anything.

If you have an inverter/charger fitted, as I have on my own camper, it will monitor the mains, and should you try to use “more” than the hook up can give you, it will “top up” the available power

I am not suggesting that you need this, just making the point that the correct equipment properly installed, is designed and intended to work side by side so no need to unplug anything

 

[Hymerbell]

Below is a link to what I did in my Hymer.
If you are going to use the inverter to anything like its capacity and you want your batteries to last I would fit another couple of batteries. At full chat allowing for inverter efficiency, you will be drawing around 150 amps. You don't want to be drawing more than 30-40 amps out of each battery.

Lenny's Modding the new Gin Palace

What temperature do you set the controller to switch on the fans Lenny? On the last van I found set to 35 deg worked well fans came on when ambient was 25deg, so I will start there and see how in goes. I think I set the hysteresis to 2 deg the standard setting of 5 is a bit wide. Sorry @Lenny...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Ooh err ! Does that mean a 1000w will be drawing 100 amps so should be OK with two 100ah batteries. Someone also told me that when fitting new batteries you need to fit them all at the same time otherwise the current or whatever it is will be pulled from the old battery first and therefore not be good or something along those lines...That’s why I didn’t fir a new 100ah battery in my previous Hymer as I was waiting for the single existing one to go dead and then fit two new ones. I have had another read of Watts What in Funster mag but had to go and have another lie down.

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[John Barrett]

I fitted a Stirling 1200W SW inverter in my Starline and for simplicity I wired it to two independent extra sockets . Never a changeover problem!
John

 

[Hymerbell]

Properly installed, the inverter should be able to be on, and the van plugged into hook up, no need to unplug anything or worry about forgetting anything.

If you have an inverter/charger fitted, as I have on my own camper, it will monitor the mains, and should you try to use “more” than the hook up can give you, it will “top up” the available power

I am not suggesting that you need this, just making the point that the correct equipment properly installed, is designed and intended to work side by side so no need to unplug anything

Ah right...sounds like I may need a trip to Taunton...I could try to install it myself but my last Hymer went up in flames...don’t want the same to happen to my new one ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Ooh err ! Does that mean a 1000w will be drawing 100 amps so should be OK with two 100ah batteries. Someone also told me that when fitting new batteries you need to fit them all at the same time otherwise the current or whatever it is will be pulled from the old battery first and therefore not be good or something along those lines...That’s why I didn’t fir a new 100ah battery in my previous Hymer as I was waiting for the single existing one to go dead and then fit two new ones. I have had another read of Watts What in Funster mag but had to go and have another lie down.

As long as the batteries are only about a year old it should be OK adding more batteries.
a 1000 watt on two batteries is pushing it if you use it at full capacity. It will work but if you use it a lot it will shorten the life of the batteries.

 

[autorouter]

Grid tie inverters are for house systems where you feed excess power into the grid and get paid for it. Never heard of one in a van ?

Grid-tie inverters are synchronised to the mains power grid and can generate power that is compatible with it. In a house they can feed excess power into the grid, as you say. But that's not their only application. Victron Multiplus inverter/chargers are used in vehicles to boost low-power mains connections from hookup or generator, and are normally configured so as not to feed back power into the grid.

I'm not saying it's usual to do this, just that it's not impossible to have an inverter and mains working at the same time.

 

[John Barrett]

I forgot to add that I installed the inverter solely to run the Nespresso machine! About five minutes was enough in the mornings...

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[Hymerbell]

I forgot to add that I installed the inverter solely to run the Nespresso machine! About five minutes was enough in the mornings...

Similar situation to me.....looks like mine is being installed solely to run my better half’s hairdryer ?

 

[autorouter]

Ooh err ! Does that mean a 1000w will be drawing 100 amps so should be OK with two 100ah batteries.

Make sure you don't confuse battery charge capacity (in amp-hours) with battery current (in amps). A 100Ah battery will supply 5 amps for 20 hours, so that's 20 x 5 = 100 amp-hours. The maximum current (amps) depends on the battery design. A 100Ah starter battery can happily supply 200 amps or more for a minute or so, to run the starter motor. A 100Ah gel leisure battery is best limited 20 amps of current to prolong its life. Other battery types (including dual-purpose lead-acid types) are somewhere in between.

 

[Hymerbell]

Make sure you don't confuse battery charge capacity (in amp-hours) with battery current (in amps). A 100Ah battery will supply 5 amps for 20 hours, so that's 20 x 5 = 100 amp-hours. The maximum current (amps) depends on the battery design. A 100Ah starter battery can happily supply 200 amps or more for a minute or so, to run the starter motor. A 100Ah gel leisure battery is best limited 20 amps of current to prolong its life. Other battery types (including dual-purpose lead-acid types) are somewhere in between.

As long as the batteries are only about a year old it should be OK adding more batteries.
a 1000 watt on two batteries is pushing it if you use it at full capacity. It will work but if you use it a lot it will shorten the life of the batteries.

I‘ve no idea how old the batteries are, they look quite new. Also they are Banner batteries which I remember someone saying on another thread are rubbish. I assume they aren’t expensive Gel batteries

 

[DBK]

I‘ve no idea how old the batteries are, they look quite new. Also they are Banner batteries which I remember someone saying on another thread are rubbish. I assume they aren’t expensive Gel batteries

View attachment 388026

Those are AGM or Absorbent Glass Mat batteries. AGM have their detractors but others seem to get along with them.

 

[Lenny HB]

Yep as John says those are AGM, Banner AGM's are real bad news, I had them on my last van they lasted 18 months.
The charger in your van is not suitable for AGM's that will shorten their life anyway.
I would replace them with either Gel's of decent flooded batteries. If you use the van off grid i.e. don't use EHU much I would get shot of them ASAP.

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[Hymerbell]

Yep as John says those are AGM, Banner AGM's are real bad news, I had them on my last van they lasted 18 months.
The charger in your van is not suitable for AGM's that will shorten their life anyway.
I would replace them with either Gel's of decent flooded batteries. If you use the van off grid i.e. don't use EHU much I would get shot of them ASAP.

Oh great....I was looking for some bad news as I haven’t had any for a week or so. Any recommendation ? Aren’t Gel batteries really expensive ?

 

[DBK]

Oh great....I was looking for some bad news as I haven’t had any for a week or so. Any recommendation ? Aren’t Gel batteries really expensive ?

If you've got them and they are working then I don't think you need to change them just for the sake of it. The ones you've got at around £180 each or thereabouts.

 

[autorouter]

Running Bull Banner are starter batteries, and are designed to withstand sudden bursts of high current. Gel batteries are not. Gel batteries are not suitable for use with high-power inverter, unless you use several in parallel - five or six for example. You may be better with flooded lead-acid 'dual-purpose' types.

The best solution is Lithium (LiFePO4) batteries, which can easily supply high currents, and are smaller and lighter. Unfortunately they are expensive and require careful charging that your existing chargers may not be able to provide.

 

[John Barrett]

For years now I have used Varta leisure batteries. Not expensive: 90 Ah for £90 and
will take anything you throw at them!
Lithium? My MH is not a moon lander...

 

[Lenny HB]

Oh great....I was looking for some bad news as I haven’t had any for a week or so. Any recommendation ? Aren’t Gel batteries really expensive ?

80a/h Gels are around £165 at the moment, I have 3 80a/h Gels in my van with a 1000 watt inverter max I take out of them is about 70 amps which is fine, around 800 watts. Certainly don't want to take more than 30 amps out of each.
A good cheap flooded battery is the Varta LDF a 90a/h is a good one, about £90. Not recommended to run flooded below 50% DOD which will give you 45 a/h of use where as a gel can ve taken down to 80% DOD and still have a long life so an 80a/h Gel will give 64a/h of useful power.

Sonnenschein 78a/h Gels are a few quid cheaper than Exide, Sonenschine make the Exide Gels.

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[Raul]

Grid-tie inverters are synchronised to the mains power grid and can generate power that is compatible with it. In a house they can feed excess power into the grid, as you say. But that's not their only application. Victron Multiplus inverter/chargers are used in vehicles to boost low-power mains connections from hookup or generator, and are normally configured so as not to feed back power into the grid.

I'm not saying it's usual to do this, just that it's not impossible to have an inverter and mains working at the same time.

Don’t confuse grid tie inverters with the like of multiplus inverter chargers.
Grid tie are designed to feed the power to the grid from PV. And are certified with the relevant anti islanding when the grid is down. No battery. Multiplus does not do that, it’s a battery inverter that turns on regardless of grid available, so no islanding, no grid tie. You can call Hibrid grid tie , the multiplus ll and multi grid, but you still need the islanding device, and a grid tie inverter for AC coupling. Or solar chargers, but is double conversion.
What multiplus does, it detects AC in(grid, generator), if available, sincronises to it, and passes thru the power. Without inverting anymore. Power control, lets you set how much power you allow in pass thru. If that’s max and you use more then “ power assist “ kicks in if is set to, and helps by inverting the extra requirement. It does not feed into the grid from battery. Let alone from PV.
l

 

[Hymerbell]

Hmm...more to this than I thought. I’m starting to wonder if I actually NEED an inverter apart from the missus hair dryer. My iPad charges on 12v along with my phone, power tools are lithium battery, I could even get a 12v charger for my MacBook....don’t drink coffee so don’t have coffee maker. What else would I use an inverter for? The only thing I can think of is my 2 hot plate little portable....and I seem to remember someone saying that anything that heats up requires a LOT of power and not suitable for a 1000w inverter.

I put one in my last Hymer for charging of my E-bike But now I have a garage thinking of getting a motor scooter Although it would be useful to charge my e-bike as well....but then again is a 1000w inverter suitable for charging a 500w e-bike battery.

it seems to me that unless you go for a 3000w inverter and goodness knows how many batteries inverters are not much use. I’ve installed GasLo so everything (apart from she who will be obeyed’s hairdryer ?) can be done on gas or 12v.

 

[Lenny HB]

If you do keep the AGM's for now be prepared for their sudden failure. Both mine failed at the same time while I was in Greece. Their capacity dropped to 10a/h on one & 11a/h on the other. I nursed them home by cutting back on my usage not using the TV etc., & with my solar kept me going a few weeks until I got home.

 

[John Barrett]

Hmm...more to this than I thought. I’m starting to wonder if I actually NEED an inverter apart from the missus hair dryer. My iPad charges on 12v along with my phone, power tools are lithium battery, I could even get a 12v charger for my MacBook....don’t drink coffee so don’t have coffee maker. What else would I use an inverter for? The only thing I can think of is my 2 hot plate little portable....and I seem to remember someone saying that anything that heats up requires a LOT of power and not suitable for a 1000w inverter.

I put one in my last Hymer for charging of my E-bike But now I have a garage thinking of getting a motor scooter Although it would be useful to charge my e-bike as well....but then again is a 1000w inverter suitable for charging a 500w e-bike battery.

it seems to me that unless you go for a 3000w inverter and goodness knows how many batteries inverters are not much use. I’ve installed GasLo so everything (apart from she who will be obeyed’s hairdryer ?) can be done on gas or 12v.

Agreed!Mine was an expensive white elephant. We went back to the Italian hob top p ercolator!

 

[Lenny HB]

Hmm...more to this than I thought. I’m starting to wonder if I actually NEED an inverter apart from the missus hair dryer. My iPad charges on 12v along with my phone, power tools are lithium battery, I could even get a 12v charger for my MacBook....don’t drink coffee so don’t have coffee maker. What else would I use an inverter for? The only thing I can think of is my 2 hot plate little portable....and I seem to remember someone saying that anything that heats up requires a LOT of power and not suitable for a 1000w inverter.

I put one in my last Hymer for charging of my E-bike But now I have a garage thinking of getting a motor scooter Although it would be useful to charge my e-bike as well....but then again is a 1000w inverter suitable for charging a 500w e-bike battery.

it seems to me that unless you go for a 3000w inverter and goodness knows how many batteries inverters are not much use. I’ve installed GasLo so everything (apart from she who will be obeyed’s hairdryer ?) can be done on gas or 12v.

We only use ours for charging the e-bikes or once when my 12v laptop charger died.
Get the boss a Babyliss gas hair styler only £20 -£25 they use little butane cartridges.

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