Retro fitting seatbelts - HELP! (1 Viewer)

[JoyMcC]

We're about to buy a vintage motorhome for us and for our family to use. One of our concerns is travelling safely with the children. The van we're looking at has seat belts in the driver's and passenger seat, but none in the back.

The youngest child is 4 and we can fit her seat in the front, but we still have to accommodate the 8 year old. Apart from the legal issues, we obviously want them to be safe.

Can we retro-fit seat belts in the back? Has anyone done this or if not, how do you get over the problem. We'd appreciate your advice. Thanks in anticipation!

 

[Mickey1]

Mickey.

 

[Mack100]

Hello and welcome.

Have a look here re retro fitting to campervans, whatever they may be!
https://www.campervanlife.com/vehicles/seat-belt-regulations/

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[ambulancekidd]

Children must be in forward facing seats with type approved belts.

 

[JoyMcC]

Thank you ... I have been trying to make sense of the regulations. It isn't easy!

 

[hilldweller]

We'd appreciate your advice. Thanks in anticipation!

It's been discussed many times in here, just do a search on seat belts.

I don't recall a single success story.

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[CWH]

Must echo @hilldweller 's post.
So many reasons NOT to do it.

 

[Boringfrog]

 

[Boringfrog]

https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/motorhome-seat-belts-time-belt-10291/

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[olley]

I fitted lapbelts to my rearward facing dinette seats in the RV. I made a steel frame that was bolted to the floor, the seat belts were bolted to this. I don't claim it meets any standard but my own.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Thank you ... I have been trying to make sense of the regulations. It isn't easy!

Yes it is:

Forget about it, you can't do it.

 

[Boringfrog]

I fitted lapbelts to my rearward facing dinette seats in the RV. I made a steel frame that was bolted to the floor, the seat belts were bolted to this. I don't claim it meets any standard but my own.

Wouldn't have my kids in side facing seats with lap belts.

If I had any, that is...

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[peterc10]

The dynamic loads the belt fixing have to take are enormous in a head on collision. The horizontal loading on the top fixing point is very large and that produces large bending moments and shear forces. The fixing points on our motorhome (and the previous ones) for passengers seat belts involved steel box sections with bracing and all bolted into the vehicle chassis member under the floor. I am sure that if a fixing into a wooden floor was sufficient they would have used it!

Is it worth getting it wrong when your kids will be using them?

 

[olley]

Wouldn't have my kids in side facing seats with lap belts.

If I had any, that is...

Strangely enough the RV has factory fitted belts on one forward facing dinette seat, and three on the side sofa.

 

[Reallyretired]

I fitted a belt to a rear facing dinette seat years ago. At the time no motorhomes had seat belts in the rear so I reckoned it was an improvement on nothing. Don't think it would be legal now.
Actually then cars didn't either unless you fitted them yourself, which I did in several cars.

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[TheBig1]

the simple answer is dont do it and buy something with seatbelts from the factory. The substantial steel structure required will take most of your legal payload. and that is ignoring the legal implications involved that go far deeper than the casual enquirer can imagine

 

[Riverbankannie]

My advice echos all above, you have to buy something with seat belts for 4 already in place from the manufacturer.
This is probably not what you want to hear but I wish you well in your search for a suitable vehicle.

 

[Geo]

The answer is yes many many times, the pic demonstrates just how little metal /security is required to make a safe functional seat belt mount
Family saloon car prepped for racing, yes we did fit 5 point harnesses but just take a good look at the factory fitted and approved rear seat belt mounting points
Yes your eyes dont deceive you it those tin plates spot welded to the inner arches. I have spent half my life welding up corroded mounts from small family cars to gurt big 4X4s
the vast majority relied on a small reinforcing plate about 3" square and 1/8th thick behind standard car steel skins. with a nut welded to the back and believe me when I say the force required to pull one out of the floor would have you cut in two long before the mount gave way
so all this talk about No you Cant, steel girders. over weight vehicles bolted thro chassis, makes me smile to say the least
look again at the car pic and also at the FAI approved harness mounts, used in all forms of motor sport, welded to floor skins -----Girders !! what Girders dont make I larf

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[peterc10]

View attachment 152911 View attachment 152912 The answer is yes many many times, the pic demonstrates just how little metal /security is required to make a safe functional seat belt mount
Family saloon car prepped for racing, yes we did fit 5 point harnesses but just take a good look at the factory fitted and approved rear seat belt mounting points
Yes your eyes dont deceive you it those tin plates spot welded to the inner arches. I have spent half my life welding up corroded mounts from small family cars to gurt big 4X4s
the vast majority relied on a small reinforcing plate about 3" square and 1/8th thick behind standard car steel skins. with a nut welded to the back and believe me when I say the force required to pull one out of the floor would have you cut in two long before the mount gave way
so all this talk about No you Cant, steel girders. over weight vehicles bolted thro chassis, makes me smile to say the least
look again at the car pic and also at the FAI approved harness mounts, used in all forms of motor sport, welded to floor skins -----Girders !! what Girders dont make I larf

But, as with nearly all cars made in the last 40 years or so, the whole skin of the car is structural all the way up to the roof. That is not that case with a motorhome. Nothing above the chassis is designed to take anything like the loads those fixing points can take. All you have is very light (almost balsa) plywood and aluminium and thin ply sandwich board. So you have to transfer those loads to somewhere they can be taken, i.e. the chassis.

Do you really believe that all of the motorhome converters would go to the expense and extra weight of the box steel sections braced and bolted to the chassis if, as you say, they are not needed? Because that is what Adria (last motorhome) and Hymer (present motorhome) actually do.

 

[gus-lopez]

Yes it is:

Forget about it, you can't do it.

If it is an older one that has no seat belt requirement then you can do what you want. All it need is the fixing plates taken through floor & attached to the chassis.Even better if you can use seats that have the upper belt fixing mounted on them.

 

[olley]

And here we have the different between those that do, and those that teach.

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[Geo]

But, as with nearly all cars made in the last 40 years or so, the whole skin of the car is structural all the way up to the roof. That is not that case with a motorhome. Nothing above the chassis is designed to take anything like the loads those fixing points can take. All you have is very light (almost balsa) plywood and aluminium and thin ply sandwich board. So you have to transfer those loads to somewhere they can be taken, i.e. the chassis.

Do you really believe that all of the motorhome converters would go to the expense and extra weight of the box steel sections braced and bolted to the chassis if, as you say, they are not needed? Because that is what Adria (last motorhome) and Hymer (present motorhome) actually do.

Yes I do. I see it often from those that know no better, and I suspect its these manufacturers that have contributed to the myth. that a replica of the forth bridge is the only safe mounting.
I have seen and repaired all types in cars and Mo Ho alike, maybe you should pass your comments on to a few more constructors like Frankia who have used "Q rail" see pic, more suited to furniture vans, than for use as seat belt mounts, wood screwed into 40mm x 40mm softwood timber inside your balsa like construction--- Steel Box---What Steel Box
Instead of forming blanket opinions, look up the science behind seat belt and mounting design
if belt and mount worked how the average untrained person thinks they do it would apply a force in excess of 12 tons to your chest in @50kph 31mph dead stop crash, double for a head on.
Fortunately for you and me they dont, there is a natural force reducing element built in to the whole system that reduces this to about 1.4 ton
general consensus seems to me that to be safe we need to construct 12 ton mounts to restrain 1.4 ton loads!!! No the fiddly bits of tin plate are enough simples
Geo

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Yes I do. I see it often from those that know no better, and I suspect its these manufacturers that have contributed to the myth. that a replica of the forth bridge is the only safe mounting.
I have seen and repaired all types in cars and Mo Ho alike, maybe you should pass your comments on to a few more constructors like Frankia who have used "Q rail" see pic, more suited to furniture vans, than for use as seat belt mounts, wood screwed into 40mm x 40mm softwood timber inside your balsa like construction--- Steel Box---What Steel Box
Instead of forming blanket opinions, look up the science behind seat belt and mounting design
if belt and mount worked how the average untrained person thinks they do it would apply a force in excess of 12 tons to your chest in @50kph 31mph dead stop crash, double for a head on.
Fortunately for you and me they dont, there is a natural force reducing element built in to the whole system that reduces this to about 1.4 ton
general consensus seems to me that to be safe we need to construct 12 ton mounts to restrain 1.4 ton loads!!! No the fiddly bits of tin plate are enough simples
Geo

View attachment 153015

Very well put @Geo
Most rear seatbelt installations on new vans do use steel mounting frames yet the occupants sit on a plywood box!
The seatbelt will meet a standard but unlike car crash testing there is absolutely nothing to prevent the occupants 'submarining' under the belt.
Providing the MH is older than I believe 2009 (when the rules changes to all carried passengers need a forward facing seatbelt) retro fitting is not against the law. The insurance company may ask for an engineers report if declared as a modification although with my old van that had side belts (not fitted by me and generally more dangerous than no belt) I just insured it for 4 occupants without a problem.

 

[peterc10]

Its good to know we have some real experts here. They really ought to go and work for motorhome manufacturers and they could save them a fortune.

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[andy63]

I moved a bench seat which incorporates seat belts into the back and that involved mounting an inertia reel belt into the side of the van... I've declared additional seating to the insurance Co and it's nevery been an issue at mot time but have to say that in this day and age I don't think you would get approval from an insurance company if you declared that you did the work without spending a lot of money getting it certificated by a engineering company..
The best and most economical method would be to install a purpose built seat imo. ..
Andy.

 

[JoyMcC]

Thank you to everyone for the comments. Our research & these comments have at least helped us narrow down the choice of vehicles. Two we were looking at had sideways-on seats, so they are now out of the running. We've decided to speak to our trusted garage and take their advice.

Sadly, we're not in a position to buy a more modern van with seat belts already fitted. If it's a no from the garage, I fear we will be abandoning our plans, for now, anyway.

 

[EX51SSS]

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[SpeedyDux]

Very well put @Geo
Most rear seatbelt installations on new vans do use steel mounting frames yet the occupants sit on a plywood box!
The seatbelt will meet a standard but unlike car crash testing there is absolutely nothing to prevent the occupants 'submarining' under the belt.
Providing the MH is older than I believe 2009 (when the rules changes to all carried passengers need a forward facing seatbelt) retro fitting is not against the law. The insurance company may ask for an engineers report if declared as a modification although with my old van that had side belts (not fitted by me and generally more dangerous than no belt) I just insured it for 4 occupants without a problem.

Bailey are I think the only UK MoHo manufacturer that carried out whole vehicle crash tests, in about 2012, as reported at the time in various magazines. The test results revealed the seat base and cushion "submarining" issue, among others, and this resulted in major design changes before the big launch of their first MoHo range. I have not heard of other UK manufacturers having carried out similar crash tests, but I might be wrong. Hymer also did similar tests on one of its biggest A Class models. My van has a TUV certified rear seat of steel construction, with 3 point seatbelts and headrests, so that is a lot more reassuring than most especially the seats installed by the smaller "artisan" converters.

Apart from seatbelt mountings, and the problem of stopping the seat base from sliding away or collapsing, there are other crash safety issues that really should be addressed if the industry were to take the safety issue seriously and not just rely on exemptions. I can think of at least 2 for starters:

1. Suitable safety headrests for rear passengers.

2. Secure fixings for potential missiles that might decapitate or severely injure those in front in a head-on crash

(Wall mounted TV? Microwave oven? Fire extinguisher? Table left in situ while travelling? Take a good look at what is in your MoHo, and how securely it is mounted /stored; and importantly, fixed to what type of structure. I am no engineer, but self-tapping screws into wallboard, and heavy kit in lightweight lockers at head height doesn't seem terribly safe to me.)

 

[peterc10]

Bailey are I think the only UK MoHo manufacturer that carried out whole vehicle crash tests, in about 2012, as reported at the time in various magazines. The test results revealed the seat base and cushion "submarining" issue, among others, and this resulted in major design changes before the big launch of their first MoHo range. I have not heard of other UK manufacturers having carried out similar crash tests, but I might be wrong. Hymer also did similar tests on one of its biggest A Class models. My van has a TUV certified rear seat of steel construction, with 3 point seatbelts and headrests, so that is a lot more reassuring than most especially the seats installed by the smaller "artisan" converters.

Apart from seatbelt mountings, and the problem of stopping the seat base from sliding away or collapsing, there are other crash safety issues that really should be addressed if the industry were to take the safety issue seriously and not just rely on exemptions. I can think of at least 2 for starters:

1. Suitable safety headrests for rear passengers.

2. Secure fixings for potential missiles that might decapitate or severely injure those in front in a head-on crash

(Wall mounted TV? Microwave oven? Fire extinguisher? Table left in situ while travelling? Take a good look at what is in your MoHo, and how securely it is mounted /stored; and importantly, fixed to what type of structure. I am no engineer, but self-tapping screws into wallboard, and heavy kit in lightweight lockers at head height doesn't seem terribly safe to me.)

Some good points made. The seat base for the seat with seat belts in my Hymer is the only one that is screwed down, but I am not sure if that is to deal with the submarining issue. And it is also the only one with headrests. From memory the Adria was the same.

 

[Geo]

I moved a bench seat which incorporates seat belts into the back and that involved mounting an inertia reel belt into the side of the van... I've declared additional seating to the insurance Co and it's nevery been an issue at mot time but have to say that in this day and age I don't think you would get approval from an insurance company if you declared that you did the work without spending a lot of money getting it certificated by a engineering company..
The best and most economical method would be to install a purpose built seat imo. ..
Andy.

!00% correct Andy providing the seat mount are welded/double bolted and triple U bolt fixed to the back Axle