Replacement tap also leaks!?!

[Guigsy]

When I got the van a couple of years ago, the tap in the bathroom dripped. When I investigated, I found out that the taps are all microswitched. The pump runs through an accumulator that holds roughly 1 litre of water when it's fully charged. The tap, if for about an hour, would leak out the contents of the accumulator before it stopped. The tap for the kitchen sink and the shower are fine.

The drip got worse, so I replaced the tap with a like-for-like last year. This involved pulling the vanity unit apart to extract the tap. Not fun! But it was fixed.

Just before we left for our extended trip to Spain in February, the tap started to leak again. I decided we'd have to live with it. Two weeks in, the tap was leaking like it was left on. So every time a tap was switched on, we'd lose a litre of water down the bathroom sink, plus whatever it leaked while the other taps were on. It meant we were filling our grey tank in less than 2 days.

I've returned to Blightly for a couple of weeks before we go again. I've just spent most of yesterday replacing the tap with a new one of a different model. Hole spacing was different, so this caused additional pain! The replacement tap ALSO drips! What is going on?

The pump is a Shurflow rated to 30psi. The new taps are rated to 3 bar, which is about 43psi. What am I doing wrong?!?!?

 

[tonyidle]

Nothing on the face of it. Try turning the pressure down. Turn it down until the flow rate is affected then turn it up a tiny amount. There's no point in the pressure being set any higher than is needed to maintain maximum flow rate. If you can measure it most seem to be set around 15psi or less.

 

[Guigsy]

Nothing on the face of it. Try turning the pressure down. Turn it down until the flow rate is affected then turn it up a tiny amount. There's no point in the pressure being set any higher than is needed to maintain maximum flow rate. If you can measure it most seem to be set around 15psi or less.

I've done a bit of surfing. It appears there's an adjustment allen bolt on top of the pump? I tighten that down and it should shut off at a lower pressure? Thanks.

 

[hilldweller]

The pump is a Shurflow rated to 30psi. What am I doing wrong?!?!?

Sounds like the wrong pump to me. Or wrong taps.

We have microswitched taps in our Burstner but this was with a submerged pump and no accumulator. Tap off - no pressure.

Our Swift has a Sureflow type pump and accumulator and no microswitches because the pump self regulates, constant pressure.

 

[tonyidle]

I've done a bit of surfing. It appears there's an adjustment allen bolt on top of the pump? I tighten that down and it should shut off at a lower pressure? Thanks.

Loosen to reduce pressure.

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[tonyidle]

Sounds like the wrong pump to me. Or wrong taps.

We have microswitched taps in our Burstner but this was with a submerged pump and no accumulator. Tap off - no pressure.

Our Swift has a Sureflow type pump and accumulator and no microswitches because the pump self regulates, constant pressure.

Yes - I missed the microswitched part. The pump shouldn't run once the tap is closed so no pressure build-up other than what builds up in the accumulator whilst the tap is running. Incidentally it doesn't matter what sort of pump is in use - both types will operate as pressure or microswitch types. What is odd about the OPs system is having (or wiring) both a pressure switch and tap switches. It doesn't really matter though - it'll work fine.

 

[Guigsy]

I guess this means the pump runs at max pressure whenever there is demand?

 

[pappajohn]

I think the tap isn't designed for a constant pressure.... IE: from the accumulator.
Being a microswitch tap it will turn off the pump when the tap is closed relieving any pressure but in this case the accumulator is maintaining pressure and forcing water past the sealing washer.
Try bypassing the accumulator, or easier... release the air from it, to see if that helps.
If it does that's your problem.

 

[Guigsy]

I think the tap isn't designed for a constant pressure.... IE: from the accumulator.
Being a microswitch tap it will turn off the pump when the tap is closed relieving any pressure but in this case the accumulator is maintaining pressure.
Try bypassing the accumulator, or easier... release the air from it, to see if that helps.
If it does that's your problem.

The tap does only leak until it's expelled all the water in the accumulator. The tap should be able to hold some pressure though shouldn't it?

Instead of bypassing the accumulator, could I release it's pressure from the air valve? Would that do (almost) the same thing?

 

[rb62]

Does the offending tap leak after you've used any of the other taps?

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[Guigsy]

Does the offending tap leak after you've used any of the other taps?

Yes. While other taps are on and then afterwards until the pressure on the accumulator has been relieved. So even if I don't use the tap, I'm still losing water.

 

[hilldweller]

The tap should be able to hold some pressure though shouldn't it?

In our old Burstner they did, because once any tap is opened the pump kicks in and there is pressure to all taps, BUT, one tap is open so I expect a reasonably low pressure on the closed taps.

Look up Whale Pump, I think that's the neat submersible pump we had. You could convert very easily.

Is that photo you are showing the pump pressure that is not connected. One end is the motor and the other the pressure switch.

 

[tonyidle]

The taps are all the same whether for a pressure system or a tap switch system. Your pump will also be OK with any type of tap. The accumulator is irrelevant. It smooths out flow on a pressure system if a tap is partially closed causing the pump to cycle rapidly on/off under control of the pressure switch.

The pump max pressure is only achieved if its outlet is blocked (by a tap for instance) whilst it is still running. Otherwise, if there's no outlet restriction, it runs at zero pressure but at maximum flow rate.

Your system is a microswitch system - the pressure switch is doing nothing (correctly).

So, if the pump stops as soon as a tap is turned off, there is no excess pressure and there should be no leaking taps. As your new tap leaks one can only assume it too is faulty.

 

[pappajohn]

The pump max pressure is only achieved if its outlet is blocked (by a tap for instance) whilst it is still running. Otherwise, if there's no outlet restriction, it runs at zero pressure but at maximum flow rate.

But if there is a flow resistance, too long pipe run, too many 90° bends, too small bore pipe or tap for the pumps design flow rate there will be pressure.... There has to be.
If the pump delivers 10 ltr/m open flow but the pipe system only allows 8 ltr/m through, the pump still tries to push 10 ltr through.
The extra pressure is then stored in the accumulator which should be close to the pump.

 

[pappajohn]

Instead of bypassing the accumulator, could I release it's pressure from the air valve?

Yes, without the air pressure the chamber will fill with water completely... Then it may pressurise.
Best to expell air, turn on tap for a few seconds, turn off, and check for leaks
Bypassing it is a better option so it's iliminated altogether

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[bigtwin]

If it’s not the tap that’s faulty, could it be the Motorhome?

Sorry!



Ian

 

[tonyidle]

But if there is a flow resistance, too long pipe run, too many 90° bends, too small bore pipe or tap for the pumps design flow rate there will be pressure.... There has to be.
If the pump delivers 10 ltr/m open flow but the pipe system only allows 8 ltr/m through, the pump still tries to push 10 ltr through.
The extra pressure is then stored in the accumulator which should be close to the pump.

That's true but any tap will withstand it. I don't understand why the accumulator is being discussed - it's irrelevant to the operation of the tap. If the tap was in use on a pressure system it would be subject to a continuous 10+psi whenever it was turned off. If the accumulator is depressurised it's neither use nor ornament whereas at the moment it's doing the job it was meant to do - albeit of rather less importance than if in use on a pressure system.

 

[pappajohn]

The accumulator must fit in the equation somewhere as the op has stated the tap only leaks until the presumed accumulator pressure has expired then the leak stops.
By bypassing the accumulator that will either confirm its that at fault or illiminate it as the problem.
The pipe restriction pressure will be a lot less than the accumulators stored pressure so it's unlikely that's the cause.

 

[pappajohn]

@Guigsy an easy way to check is get the tap leaking then immediately release the accumulators air pressure and see if the leak stops immediately or continues

 

[Guigsy]

@Guigsy an easy way to check is get the tap leaking then immediately release the accumulators air pressure and see if the leak stops immediately or continues

I can stop the leak of the bathroom taps by opening the kitchen taps just enough it lets water out, but doesn't activate the pump. This releases the pressure and stops after 1-2 cups of water... the same as what would have leaked from the closed bathroom tap. It's definitely the accumulator that's keeping static pressure after the pump has stopped with a small volume of water (which is what they are designed to do!) and overwhelming the closed tap. I just don't get why I'm on my third bathroom sink tap in 2 years when the shower and kitchen taps (of admittedly different designs) are fine?

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[pappajohn]

Definately a strange one.
May be worth powering up the pump with all taps closed for a few seconds to see what the tap does at full pressure.
Bridge the two microswitch wires at the tap.
If they're on connectors, Disconnect and touch together while watching the closed tap.
If there are no connectors I use a sharp knife/Stanley blade at 90° to the wires (laid parallel to each other) to cut through the insulation and make a contact.

I bet it leaks like a sieve!
Microswitch taps don't NEED a positive seal as when the tap closes the pump stops instantly so no pressure in the pipes to push water out. (except you have an accumulator)
In reality they shouldn't need a seal at all.
Just like a hose pipe....turn off the tap (same as stopping the pump) the water stops

 

[Guigsy]

If the accumulator isn't pressurised, powering the pump circuit does nothing and doesn't cause the tap to leak. It's only when any tap has been turned on far enough so the microswitch activates the pump that the bathroom tap will leak. Once the tap has been switched off again (microswitch off) the pump stops. The bathroom tap drips until the accumulator is depressurised. If you only turn the tap on for a second, the accumulator builds less pressure, so the leak stops sooner. When I was in Spain on the previous taps when they were really bad, I'd wash my hands by turning the tap on for only a couple of seconds and then just rinsing off with with the stream that continued for a while after.

The bathroom taps just can't stop the pressure, but the shower and kitchen are fine! So what do I do? Remove the accumulator? Replace with the same make as the other taps that seem to be fine?

 

[tonyidle]

The accumulator must fit in the equation somewhere as the op has stated the tap only leaks until the presumed accumulator pressure has expired then the leak stops.
By bypassing the accumulator that will either confirm its that at fault or illiminate it as the problem.
The pipe restriction pressure will be a lot less than the accumulators stored pressure so it's unlikely that's the cause.

If the accumulator can't accumulate there'll be no pressure to push water out of the closed tap so all you prove is that the tap doesn't leak when water isn't trying to get out. I'm not sure that that helps the diagnosis. There will be a minor accumulator effect from the pipework expanding so some water will still leak. But it will stop more quickly if the accumulator is doing little or nothing. How does any of that sort out a leaking tap?

 

[pappajohn]

I think I would change the tap to the same make as the kitchen tap.
The problem certainly appears to be that particular make and type of tap can't cope with ANY pressure after the pump stops and the accumulator is producing some pressure.

Thinking about it, just removing the accumulator won't make much difference as without it. when you open another tap and the pump starts water may still leak from the washroom tap but stop instantly when you close the other tap and the pump stops.

Having all none leaking taps would also give you the option of converting the system to a pressurised system if you wanted to and do away with the microswitchs.

 

[TinaLes]

Is it a Reich Tap by any chance?, I am really struggling to get our shower mixer to stop leaking. I have a new cartridge on order which despite paying £9.80 for Royal Mail tracked next day delivery has been misdirected to the wrong sorting office
My problem is that the black plastic locking ring that holds the cartridge in place was installed cross threaded, therefore getting it off proved very difficult and now its buggered completely.
The new replacement cartridge will arrive eventually, but it does not come with a new plastic locking ring, which I have now found out are not sold separately So I have spent the day on the phone, and going to specialist tap stores, and they cannot find a back nut anything like the Reich one size wise.
I resigned myself to having to buy a complete new shower mixer valve, but then the party started when I saw how impossible it would be to get to the back of the existing one to replace it.
I now having striped down the tap, seen the O ring seals, and the fact that the whole tap mixer body is chromed plastic consider them to be overpriced rubbish, not designed to be accessed or repaired, just simply replaced.
If I were to be successful in removing the whole mixer assembly I would prefer not to fit the same type again, I would want one with a brass cartridge securing lock-nut for a start, not a one time useless plastic one that can obviously be cross threaded even by the manufacturers.
Thats our planned honeymoon in the Highlands on ice, and I still dont know for how long.
PS: the van is a Carthago and still under warranty, so the dealers will have to sort it, but you all know how long you can wait for parts, hence me trying to fix myself, and get away on our hols
A very upset & disappointed.
Les

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[pappajohn]

If the accumulator can't accumulate there'll be no pressure to push water out of the closed tap so all you prove is that the tap doesn't leak when water isn't trying to get out. I'm not sure that that helps the diagnosis. There will be a minor accumulator effect from the pipework expanding so some water will still leak. But it will stop more quickly if the accumulator is doing little or nothing. How does any of that sort out a leaking tap?

That's my point. The accumulator IS causing the problem by pressurising the system but the tap isn't capable of containing the pressure.
By removing the accumulator it simply confirms it.

Anyway, my last post (above) gives the answer.

 

[tonyidle]

That's my point. The accumulator IS causing the problem by pressurising the system but the tap isn't capable of containing the pressure.
By removing the accumulator it simply confirms it.

Anyway, my last post (above) gives the answer.

I don't disagree that it will prove that the tap isn't capable of containing the pressure. The point I am trying to make is that it should be able to do so. So we prove that the tap leaks - something we know already.

 

[Guigsy]

Is it a Reich Tap by any chance?

Yes. The quality of the plastic moulding is pretty terrible. It took me ages to get the nuts on the bottom because the threads are so poor.

The older taps that I went through two sets of were Comet. I'm not sure what the shower and kitchen taps are.

I did think about just changing it to a pressure based/non-microswitched system... but I thought of an issue. There's actually a 4th 'tap', the Thetford loo. Will that work?

 

[rb62]

If you changed to a pressure based system the toilet should still work,when you push the button the solenoid opens,releasing pressure and pump kicks in....but you would still have a leaky tap which means the pump would keep kicking in!..which is why we always turn our pump off when leaving the van!
I would still be concerned about having what appears to be excess pressure in the system,which to my mind can only be coming from the pump. I take that if you open bathroom tap,close it,turn off the pump,or 12v if you don't have an pump switch and open one of the other taps you get the litre of water out proving that it is the bathroom tap that can't cope.

 

[rb62]

Just read it all through again and seen you've tried the open other taps bit!
Doesn't seem to be much info on accumulators in micro switched systems,just pressurised but it must still peform the same functions, to even out the flow and apparantly 'provide a cupfull of water when the pump is turned off'.......
something you know about already

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