RE-FILLABLE GAS BOTTLE "UPDATE". (1 Viewer)

[Theonlysue]

This was my 5 year old gas hose. Picked up in habitation check.

 

[Steve]

A very good reason to have a regular check.

 

[vwalan]

Hi there,couldn't resist putting in my 5 pennworth,but I think a lot of this problem has been sparked off by people turning up at lpg filling sites e.g. with CALOR and OTHER branded NON-refillable bottles and filled them with adaptors which were obtained on e-bay,i know of quite a few people who have purchased these adaptors and now our local Morrisons where I have never previously had problems using to fill my Alugas system which has an external filler point mounted on the lower skirt of my Hymer,will no longer allow the use of the LPG pump by motorcaravans,I even know of one person,a caravanner,who used this method to fill his "see-thru" light-
weight cylinder and used to "guess" what might be about 80% by looking at the "see thru" area near the upper-half of the bottle,it is these sort of practices that are causing problems for the rest of motorcaravanners/car -avanners that have gone to the expense of having a proper refillable bot -tle system fitted with an external filler point,I could be wrong but I remain to be convinced otherwise.

its been possible to fill bottles as far back as the 1970,s that i know of . it did go on before .
it could be that the later influx of refillable bottles is now what garages are seeing in great numbers that is changing things . i first got shown how to fill bottles while working on a caravan site and we had run out of ready filled bottles .
it definately isnt a new idea to fill exchange bottles .
there was quite a lot of lpg cars etc running around in the 70,s . i had my first lpg car in 77 it seemed like a good idea . strangely it died off a few years later and many of the garages or fill up places disappeared.
but have fun . smile . summer is just around the corner.

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[barsteward]

Am I right in assuming then that it's not illegal to sell and advertise a product as safe to use when IMHO it clearly is not safe nor legal to fill in the manor described.?



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"We have 2 types of bottles here the standard shown in the first 2 pictures and the premium in the last one ( £40 extra and can be use on a car or boat in motion as extra safety system son the outlet)


These bottles have a double safety valve like in the automotive industry on their fill point allowing you to take just this bottle to a autogas filling station and have it filled to the safe 80% limit with out the worry or dangers involved in trying to refill a standard calor bottle which is not allowed."




GetGas is one of the UK's largest suppliers of leisure gas products with massive stocks for net day delivery if you cant see what you want here but you can on our web shop email us info@getgas.co.uk and we can add it as a listing



The bottles can be filled or part filled with the built-in cut off valve for safety and contents gauge giving an indication of how much if left in the bottle.


These are great for places where you cant get the truck top a gas site as with boats and burger vans


can be used abroad with adapters



If un sure please call us on 0117 9537000

 

[Minxy]

Am I right in assuming then that it's not illegal to sell and advertise a product as safe to use when IMHO it clearly is not safe nor legal to fill in the manor described.?

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That's not the ones that cause concern, its the ones that you can buy off Ebay etc to fit to non-refillable bottles, eg Calor, that are the problem.

The ones you've linked to still have a proper nozzle attachment fitted by the manufacturer and/or seller, a 80% cut off, and are meant to be user refillable.

 

[Minxy]

just had a Gaslow system fitted, they used a rubber refil hose

Nothing wrong with that but obviously you need to check them periodically to ensure there's no damage or deterioration as per Sue's photo.

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[scotjimland]

from the HSE
http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm


Introduction
1. HSE has received reports of members of the public using purpose made adaptors to fill portable LPG cylinders at refuelling stations dispensing LPG for automotive use, commonly referred to as ‘Autogas’.

2. The filling of portable LPG cylinders is a potentially highly hazardous activity, the 'safe' filling of portable LPG cylinders requires a number critical safety measures. Automotive LPG filling stations incorporate safety measures to make filling vehicles 'safe', they do not include all of the specific measures for filling portable LPG cylinders.

3. UKLPG Industry Information Sheet No.28 ‘FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES’ explains the reasons why transportable cylinders should not be filled at stations designed for filling vehicles. The guidance is freely available from the UKLPG website Broken Link Removed.




http://www.uklpg.org/about-uklpg/

User Information Sheet 26




August 2011
Replaces UKLPG Information Sheet 24 – June 2007
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES

It is the advice from UKLPG that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at self service autogas refuelling sites.

Containers which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or
similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be
permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:

 are not removed for refilling; and
 are secured in a suitable enclosure; and
 are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
 are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.

UK Health and Safety Regulations, made under the Health and Safety at Work Act,
including the:
 Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations
 Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment
Regulations
 Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations
 Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations
 Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order
impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites
are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the
site, including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and
they may be considered, in law, to be the filler.

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at
self fill autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations, as they have neither.
Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.
This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement Liaison
Group meeting of 7 th July 2005, which states “PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition
notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas
cylinders”.
Should a site decide to fill user owned, portable LPG cylinders they need to provide
trained personnel to carry out the filling.

To ensure safe and satisfactory operations they must consider:
 legal implications under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act and supporting
legislation, notably the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations,
the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure
Equipment Regulations and the Dangerous Substances and Explosive

Atmospheres Regulations;
 their planning and local authority consents;
 their position with regard to weights and measures and consumer legislation;
 their Insurance position both with regard to on site activities and responsibilities
and subsequent use of the cylinder by the customer.
Their operating procedures should ensure that:
 any cylinder to be filled is confirmed to be π marked;
(Note: this is a requirement in the UK to show compliance with the Transportable
Pressure Equipment Directive.)
 the staff only fill customer owned cylinders which they are competent to fill and
for which instructions for filling are available;
(Note: Most cylinders in service in the UK are owned by LPG companies and can
only be filled by them.)
 smoking and naked lights are prohibited;
 any cylinder to be filled and the member of staff filling it are protected from
vehicle movement on the site;
 suitable personal protective equipment is worn by the staff carrying out the filling;
 there is a method of ensuring there is no static build up;
 before any fill the condition of the cylinder is checked against a written procedure
to confirm the cylinder is safe to fill and that the cylinder is “in test”;
(Note: Customer owned composite cylinders have to be re-qualified every 5
years, steel cylinders have to be re-qualified every 10 years.)
 ensure that the cylinder is held upright during the filling process;
 the cylinder can be confirmed not to be overfilled and there is a procedure on
making safe in the event of an overfill;
 the cylinder valve is checked on completion of filling and there is a procedure on
making can be safe in the event of the valve not sealing.
Note: A customer must not be allowed to leave site with an overfilled
or leaking cylinder

 

[John & Joan]

I am registered with Calor Gas and can get LPG at 5% VAT from their depots that sell autogas. Not all Calor depots are owned by Calor Gas UK. Some are independent franchised outlets. I have however found that local forecourts are retailing LPG cheaper that Calor Depots even with the VAT at 5%. Shell is in partnership with Calor and the garage prices are lower than Calor is retailing it at.

I contacted
HM Revenue & Customs
Mineral Oil Reliefs Centre
Dobson House
Regent Centre
Gosforth
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE3 3PF

19th March 2012

I use “Autogas” LPG as my gas supply for domestic heating and cooking in my Motorhome. I have an 85 litre bulk tank on board my motorhome instead of using bottled gas. I use about 1000 litres of Autogas per year for my domestic gas supply. The vehicle is powered by diesel fuel.

I note on your website that there is provision to claim a rebate by householders for the duty on biodiesel as a fuel for domestic heating. I am unaware if there is such a scheme for using LPG when supplied through an “Autogas” outlet. Is it possible for me to reclaim duty paid in the same manner for “Autogas” used for domestic purposes?

Website quote:
Can I use biodiesel for heating?

The use of biodiesel as a heating fuel is not a chargeable use and therefore no duty is due. Although there is provision in law for this fuel to be supplied without a duty charge being applied, the reclaim scheme described above can also be used to reclaim any duty that is charged by suppliers.

This system has been put in place because it is recognised that it can be difficult for householders to obtain biodiesel for non-road use that has not already been charged with Excise Duty. This will be an administrative decision for the supplier, who may not supply sufficient quantities of domestic heating biodiesel to differentiate between road and non-road customers. End Website quote

HMRC replied
HMRC reply 190412 page 1.pdf

HMRC reply 190412 page 2.pdf

So It is possible to get the VAT reduced at point of sale but as the Road Fuel Duty is charged at the point of delivery to the supplier and there is no workable arrangement, for LPG, to get a refund of this the supplier is not going to give it at the point of sale.

 

[JockandRita]

@John & Joan.

Your reply from HMRC was certainly more comprehensive than mine. Basically, they told me that if I wasn't happy to pay the road fuel duty rate for Autogas, then I should seek to source my gas for domestic use, from somewhere other than a filling station forecourt.

A Flogas supplier just off the A50 near Stoke On Trent, advised me that gas for domestic use (5% VAT) should be dispensed from a separate pump to that for road fuel use (20% VAT) He suggested that Countrywide Farmers were acting illegally, by dispensing from an Autogas pump, but only charging 5% VAT.
Personally, I think he's got that wrong.

Cheers,

Jock.

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[MitchandJenny]

Containers which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:-

 are not removed for refilling; and
 are secured in a suitable enclosure; and
 are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
 are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.

That seems pretty clear to me.. My fill point is fixed in the skirt..
(I wonder if it being mounted on the door is the same ??)
What a bloody minefield this lot is !!!!
Roll on Spain trip...

 

[canopus]

If you are referring to Countrywide Farmers, then sadly no.
Their nearest depot is Solihull, and they are concentrated mainly in the West and South West.

There is a farm at North Scarle, whose Autogas price can be very competitive. They are not far off the A46 between Newark and Lincoln.

HTH,

Jock.

The farm you mention is at South Scarle Jock. It should only be approached from Collingham as other roads into the village are very narrow.

Church Farm, Main St, Newark, Nottinghamshire NG23 7JH

 

[JockandRita]

The farm you mention is at South Scarle Jock. It should only be approached from Collingham as other roads into the village are very narrow.

Church Farm, Main St, Newark, Nottinghamshire NG23 7JH

Oops. Thanks for pointing that out Ken.

It's not one I've used myself, but know of plenty others in the MCC who have.

Cheers,

Jock.

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