RCD/MCB advice please? (1 Viewer)

[Hammie]

My MoHo is a 2004 Arto (Hymer N&B) last year Habcheck passed it no problem. This year I had the Habcheck done by Greenfields in Bracknell. He told me that my van had failed as it didn’t have an RCD fitted. It had tripped on my only tour this year (overloaded it) but he says it has an MCB and I needed an RCD? £200 to fit and they would squeeze me in. I asked is it an new EU reg. as we are leaving EU in two weeks? Don’t they apply grandfather rights to this sort of thing as I don’t see thousands of Mohos being banned until RCD fitted? They turned up two hours before the appointment and he seemed annoyed the customer wasn’t waiting. He commented that Habcheck are franchised and don’t have the necessary certificates for electric and gas. Battery rest voltage says RCD test 740MS. He told me that the campsite posts have RCD so do I need this fitted, or was I being led up the garden path? Can I get one that plugs into my power cable similar to domestic ones?

 

[pappajohn]

Scratching for work in my opinion.
And £200 for a £50 RCD..... Rip off, they take minutes to fit.
In the UK the hookup posts invariably have an RCD or RCBO fitted so that protects you.
I'd tell them to take a hike and go elsewhere in future.

 

[pappajohn]

Battery rest voltage says RCD test 740MS

No idea what this means????

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[Lenny HB]

There is no law requiring one but advisable to fit for your own safety.
Our first Hymer didn't have one that was 2008, but there was enough space in the consumer unit box to fit one, which I did.

You will probably find your box has enough space, just need to remove a couple of blanks and fit. It is just wired between the input and the exsisting MCB. A 25 amp 30ma trip RCD is less than £20.

As John says they are taking the pee shouldn't be more than ½ hour labour if there is space in the box.

 

[gus-lopez]

Can I get one that plugs into my power cable similar to domestic ones?

yes you can but best to have one in the actual van.Additionally if you have an inverter it is always advised to have one on the outlet from that as well.

 

[cmcardle75]

My MoHo is a 2004 Arto (Hymer N&B) last year Habcheck passed it no problem. This year I had the Habcheck done by Greenfields in Bracknell. He told me that my van had failed as it didn’t have an RCD fitted. It had tripped on my only tour this year (overloaded it) but he says it has an MCB and I needed an RCD? £200 to fit and they would squeeze me in. I asked is it an new EU reg. as we are leaving EU in two weeks? Don’t they apply grandfather rights to this sort of thing as I don’t see thousands of Mohos being banned until RCD fitted? They turned up two hours before the appointment and he seemed annoyed the customer wasn’t waiting. He commented that Habcheck are franchised and don’t have the necessary certificates for electric and gas. Battery rest voltage says RCD test 740MS. He told me that the campsite posts have RCD so do I need this fitted, or was I being led up the garden path? Can I get one that plugs into my power cable similar to domestic ones?

Normally you just swap out the DP isolator switch for an RCD. Alternatively, swap all the MCBs for RCBOs, although that could be more expensive if there are several. However, I've never heard of a "fail" for not being up to modern spec. It is normally just recorded as such. However, if it was mine, I'd still swap it. RCD/RCBO protection is very effective. But then it would cost me £20 as I'd be happy to do it myself, rather than pay someone £200.

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[Lenny HB]

Normally you just swap out the DP isolator switch for an RCD. Alternatively, swap all the MCBs for RCBOs, although that could be more expensive if there are several. However, I've never heard of a "fail" for not being up to modern spec. It is normally just recorded as such. However, if it was mine, I'd still swap it. RCD/RCBO protection is very effective. But then it would cost me £20 as I'd be happy to do it myself, rather than pay someone £200.

It won't have an isolator switch just a Double Pole MCB.

 

[cmcardle75]

It won't have an isolator switch just a Double Pole MCB.

If it was, that would be easily replaced by a DP RCBO. Just check the pinout is compatible.

 

[TheBig1]

£200 is taking the piss. Any local electrician could do it much cheaper

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[busby]

Habitation so called service has no fail or pass,,it's not a test it's a report..They are trying to rip you off..I have never had an habitation check on a caravan or motorhome ever and have been doing it on and off since the early 70s..BUSBY.

 

[RandallC]

Hi, How about a photo of your distribution board and panel (covers open so we can see the mcbs etc)

As previous £200 is unreasonable.

DIN rail mounted cheap end of the market, circa £20. British General 80A 100mA DP Type AC RCD | RCDs & RCCBs | Screwfix.com

Any competent electrician will fit it. (It's the law)

 

[cmcardle75]

Hi, How about a photo of your distribution board and panel (covers open so we can see the mcbs etc)

As previous £200 is unreasonable.

DIN rail mounted cheap end of the market, circa £20. British General 80A 100mA DP Type AC RCD | RCDs & RCCBs | Screwfix.com

Any competent electrician will fit it. (It's the law)

Although I do wonder if it includes upgrading to metal consumer unit. Not read the "new" regs sufficiently to know if this is required for motorcaravan installations to bring up to modern standard.

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[RandallC]

Although I do wonder if it includes upgrading to metal consumer unit. Not read the "new" regs sufficiently to know if this is required for motorcaravan installations to bring up to modern standard.

No longer up on the IEE Wiring Regulations as whilst used as guidance don't necessarily apply to the power generation industry. So knowledge in IIE Regs limited limited, more relevant was/is the The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Guidance on Regulations (hse.gov.uk).
However am aware that recent changes have made working on electrical systems very similar to the competency requirements for working on gas systems.

Hence my suggestion to seek advice from a competent electrician.

 

[stevewagner]

No idea what this means????

That's the test tripping time.

 

[stevewagner]

Electrical regulations are not statute unlike gas which is, therefore it is not illegal to not have an RCD. Also the regulations are not retrospective so you are not required to update your consumer unit. If you do decide to have one fitted I would advise an RCCBO as if you fit an RCD and it is rated the same as the suppliers one there will be no discrimination between the two.

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[RustyRuss]

As an electrician for the past 30+ years, a study of BS7671 18th edition Electrical installation regulations shows that all electrical hook ups are required to be provided with a 30 milliamp 40 millisecond RCD to protect the user of the electricity supply. As someone above said, you can not make a domestic/house wiring system require an RCD retrospectively if the wiring that is installed was carried out before such a requirement was in force. The same is true for your MoHo. However, although it is not specifically stated as far as I know, EHU’s are likely to be used by the General, invariably stupid, Public, so BS7671 requires that you protect the public. Given that the Electrical hook up MUST have an RCD it may be overkill to install a further RCD at the front end of the mains (240volt) electrical system in your MoHo, they may not “discriminate” very well, the RCD in the MoHo may be more sensitive than the one for the EHU, or vice versa, ultimately you may find that they both trip, so you have to reset both. Personally I don’t see this as a hardship.... It is worth noting that RCD’s are installed to protect the people/animals that are likely to come into contact with live components of the 240v electrical system and prevent them from getting a lethal electric shock, whereas MCB’s are designed to protect the wiring, to prevent the wiring from transmitting too much current, making the wiring too hot and possibly melting or catching fire.

In conclusion, I would fit one for peace of mind, but I would only do so if there was room in the consumer unit/fuse board to do so. A competent domestic spark should be able to supply and fit one for around £60, there is a caveat now though, it must be of the same make and model as the rest of the components in the original consumer unit!

I am willing to stand corrected by any other electricians, perhaps more specifically experienced with MoHo’s!!

Cheers!

Russ

 

[stevewagner]

As an electrician for the past 30+ years, a study of BS7671 18th edition Electrical installation regulations shows that all electrical hook ups are required to be provided with a 30 milliamp 40 millisecond RCD to protect the user of the electricity supply. As someone above said, you can not make a domestic/house wiring system require an RCD retrospectively if the wiring that is installed was carried out before such a requirement was in force. The same is true for your MoHo. However, although it is not specifically stated as far as I know, EHU’s are likely to be used by the General, invariably stupid, Public, so BS7671 requires that you protect the public. Given that the Electrical hook up MUST have an RCD it may be overkill to install a further RCD at the front end of the mains (240volt) electrical system in your MoHo, they may not “discriminate” very well, the RCD in the MoHo may be more sensitive than the one for the EHU, or vice versa, ultimately you may find that they both trip, so you have to reset both. Personally I don’t see this as a hardship.... It is worth noting that RCD’s are installed to protect the people/animals that are likely to come into contact with live components of the 240v electrical system and prevent them from getting a lethal electric shock, whereas MCB’s are designed to protect the wiring, to prevent the wiring from transmitting too much current, making the wiring too hot and possibly melting or catching fire.

In conclusion, I would fit one for peace of mind, but I would only do so if there was room in the consumer unit/fuse board to do so. A competent domestic spark should be able to supply and fit one for around £60, there is a caveat now though, it must be of the same make and model as the rest of the components in the original consumer unit!

I am willing to stand corrected by any other electricians, perhaps more specifically experienced with MoHo’s!!

Cheers!

Russ

I agree with what you have said but tripping both RCD's can be an issue as very often the suppliers RCD is in a locked enclosure. Sod's law dictates that it will trip when the site office is closed, possibly leaving you with no power for the night.

 

[Wikky]

We have a 30mA RCD fitted to our 2011 Rapido as an OEM fit.

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[RandallC]

As an electrician for the past 30+ years, a study of BS7671 18th edition Electrical installation regulations shows that all electrical hook ups are required to be provided with a 30 milliamp 40 millisecond RCD to protect the user of the electricity supply. As someone above said, you can not make a domestic/house wiring system require an RCD retrospectively if the wiring that is installed was carried out before such a requirement was in force. The same is true for your MoHo. However, although it is not specifically stated as far as I know, EHU’s are likely to be used by the General, invariably stupid, Public, so BS7671 requires that you protect the public. Given that the Electrical hook up MUST have an RCD it may be overkill to install a further RCD at the front end of the mains (240volt) electrical system in your MoHo, they may not “discriminate” very well, the RCD in the MoHo may be more sensitive than the one for the EHU, or vice versa, ultimately you may find that they both trip, so you have to reset both. Personally I don’t see this as a hardship.... It is worth noting that RCD’s are installed to protect the people/animals that are likely to come into contact with live components of the 240v electrical system and prevent them from getting a lethal electric shock, whereas MCB’s are designed to protect the wiring, to prevent the wiring from transmitting too much current, making the wiring too hot and possibly melting or catching fire.

In conclusion, I would fit one for peace of mind, but I would only do so if there was room in the consumer unit/fuse board to do so. A competent domestic spark should be able to supply and fit one for around £60, there is a caveat now though, it must be of the same make and model as the rest of the components in the original consumer unit!

I am willing to stand corrected by any other electricians, perhaps more specifically experienced with MoHo’s!!

Cheers!

Russ

Agreed.

However folks should REMEMBER RCD's DO NOT PROTECT against a live to neutral fault (MCB's do that) so if you manage to put your fingers on the live and neutral at the same time (having cut the hedge trimmer cable in two) then there is no earth fault sensitive protection.

Agree no requirement for retrospective compliance. The HSE however have a view based on IIE Regs & https://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/hsr25.pdf.

Very brave or fool hardy person who flouts these, would also assume if found out, a get out for your insurance company.

 

[RustyRuss]

Steve, Wikky, Randall, thanks for your input, difficult to get it all down “on paper” and not turn it into a big Techy discourse that will probably make the majority of Funsters stop reading after paragraph 1 or 2. I think we have all contributed to the understanding of the issues, and therefore the solutions that present themselves, to the OP!!

Cheers! Happy New Year!

Russ.

 

[RustyRuss]

I’m sure I speak for Steve, Wikky and RandallC when we thank you SteveLynn for any and all praise going!! LOL!!

Cheers!

Russ

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[stevewagner]

Invoice in the post

 

[Hammie]

Thank you so much for your responses. I will post a picture and I will have to read all the posts again perhaps a couple of times in order to digest it. Just need to get rid of the hangover first

 

[berni109]

If u dont understand it leave it alone and get someone to do a professional job for u. Whoever is trying to charge u £200 is attempting to RIP u off as already posted above.

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[pappajohn]

As for retrospective installation, I've worked in old properties with the old Wylex rewirable fuses and red and black wiring.
Usually when a new owner requires a rewire but if the wiring is safe and undamaged, unlikely as the old insulation rots and flakes off exposing bare wire, it's acceptable but not recommended to leave as is.

 

[Hammie]

If u dont understand it leave it alone and get someone to do a professional job for u. Whoever is trying to charge u £200 is attempting to RIP u off as already posted above.

i wouldn’t touch electrics other than perhaps a swap of a socket in the van to include usb plugs. I do however like to learn from those in the know as it makes me less likely to get ripped off by the unscrupulous which is very much appreciated.

 

[pappajohn]

Although I do wonder if it includes upgrading to metal consumer unit. Not read the "new" regs sufficiently to know if this is required for motorcaravan installations to bring up to modern standard.

Electrical regs are not retrospect.
Imagine 50 million homes all wanting one tomorrow so they comply.

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