Question about insurance towing a toad on an a-frame (1 Viewer)

[sallylillian]

So you are driving down a road which is locally known to be 30 mph. There are signs to that effect but the first sign is positioned incorrectly. A prosecution fails because the signage is incorrect. Therefore you were not breaking the law. There is no law against towing a car in this country, providing you have the correct licence, so you cannot break a law, so how can it be tested in court? What would be the charge you are thinking of Mel?
In any event the thread is about insurance and I agree with the principle of having both vehicles with the same company to avoid hassle, trailer, A-frame however the 2 are linked.

 

[Charlie]

I actually don't have a problem with a-frames! I never have had!!!! In fact when we used to have a 1966 Bond Minicar (3-wheeler) we actually used to tow it on a pre-runner of an a-frame - basically a large towing bar that attached to the front wheel mounting/structure! For you to say I'm against them therefore is totally and utterly WRONG!

What I do NOT like, and is the point I was (yet again) trying to make, is that they have NOT been shown to be LEGAL ... people use them and no-one appears to have ever been prosecuted for doing so, but that does NOT make them legal! So the ONLY thing that I am pointing out really is that implying that it IS DEFINITELY LEGAL to use them is what is wrong ... nothing more nothing less.

@Charlie - please tell me where my comments could in any way be described as being a "vitriolic retort"!!! I would appreciate an answer to this as I strongly object to you stating this! I know you've been annoyed about your 'detailing' thread but that's NOT my fault ... I don't even recall taking part in it, and certainly NOT belittling your knowledge in any way if I did go on it! I feel therefore you have been extremely 'rude' to me!

I think you need to calm down a bit.. Not being funny here but we dont have to shout and argue.

Not for a minute did I suggest you said anything on the detailing thread nor did I imply it. I used it purely as an example why there are certain topics that are just not worth commenting on. For the record neither am I annoyed or in any way upset about the detailing thread. I just wont write again for the reasons above, As it is I don't need too..

Your use of capital letters and the words and I quote "If you still want a poke in the eye I could still do that if you wish! " come across as vitriolic, Sorry they just do.

I have not nor ever would be directly rude to you. I like your posts and in the large smile and agree when I read most of them. But Mel you do fly off the handle a bit easy. So perhaps I should do the sensible thing and hit the ignore button, That way I wont upset you again.

 

[Minxy]

I think you need to calm down a bit.. Not being funny here but we dont have to shout and argue.

Not for a minute did I suggest you said anything on the detailing thread nor did I imply it. I used it purely as an example why there are certain topics that are just not worth commenting on. For the record neither am I annoyed or in any way upset about the detailing thread. I just wont write again for the reasons above, As it is I don't need too..

Your use of capital letters and the words and I quote "If you still want a poke in the eye I could still do that if you wish! " come across as vitriolic, Sorry they just do.

I have not nor ever would be directly rude to you. I like your posts and in the large smile and agree when I read most of them. But Mel you do fly off the handle a bit easy. So perhaps I should do the sensible thing and hit the ignore button, That way I wont upset you again.

Forget it Charlie, I can see you're not going to apologise for that nasty comment as you think it was acceptable - I put a silly smiley after my 'eye poke' jesting but obviously you have a different sense of humour to most others.

You have now had a further dig at me about my supposed 'flying off the handle' easily ... perhaps you ought to read some of your OTT postings before you accuse me of that.

Can I remind you it wasn't me who was recently threatening to throw his teddy out of the pram - I didn't want you to go then ... but now ... well ... ignore me if you wish, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that one jot.

I'm off to spend my time 'talking' to those who are more polite IMV.

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[Charlie]

You know what Mel I have in the last half an hour had 7 PMs from members wondering what the hell has upset you. My answers have been I haven't got a clue.

 

[Minxy]

You know what Mel I have in the last half an hour had 7 PMs from members wondering what the hell has upset you. My answers have been I haven't got a clue.

... perhaps you ought to re-read your comments then, as for others ... I'm not drawing them into it.

 

[sweetie]

Charlie has nothing to apologise for! The thread was started about insurance! Not the legalities of whether a car on A frame can be classed as trailer or not.
It is a shame people can not stick to the title subject.
Steve

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[Charlie]

If one.... Just one member here reckons I have anything to apologise about I will do it without hesitation... Till then I am genuinely unsure what or why I would.

 

[Minxy]

Charlie has nothing to apologise for! The thread was started about insurance! Not the legalities of whether a car on A frame can be classed as trailer or not.
It is a shame people can not stick to the title subject.
Steve

Your opinion and you are entitled to it ... however perhaps if you are accused of spouting a 'vitriolic retort' and then have that followed up with being told that you 'fly off the handle' ... you wouldn't be happy with that ... or would you?

 

[Minxy]

If one.... Just one member here reckons I have anything to apologise about I will do it without hesitation... Till then I am genuinely unsure what or why I would.

I'm a member and I reckon you have ... I was on the receiving end but obviously the fact that you have made these statements against me which I am unhappy about doesn't matter to you.

As I said earlier, forget it Charlie, if you don't understand what you've done then I'm not gonna keep telling you ... I can't be bothered, I'd rather go and help other funsters.

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[Charlie]

I cannot believe what I'm reading here.

As far as I'm concerned I have done nothing.. You are on the receiving end of what ?

Not one person has agreed with you Mel or I would have apologised just as I said I would.

You really are close to stepping over the mark now with your silly inane comments. 9 times out it ten members and that includes me retreat when you start your rankings. For gods sake grow up !

 

[icantremember]

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Can we get back to the insurance issue, please?

To summarise,

1) it isn't illegal in UK as demonstrated under UK law
2) insurance companies such as comfort are aware and have no issues
3) even mentioning it in the policy documents
4) as with all these things, one needs to speak to an insurer who knows what they are talking about, as box tickers just haven't a clue
5) always make the insurance companies aware of a) the fact and b) the modifications

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[Minxy]

You really are close to stepping over the mark now with your silly inane comments. 9 times out it ten members and that includes me retreat when you start your rankings. For gods sake grow up !

I think you ought to seriously read what you are posting before you do so Charlie ... I'm not gonna stay here to be insulted by you.

 

[gus-lopez]

Help me with something..... Firstly what is it that you really dislike about Aframes and those that use them ?

What is the point ? I mean those who have never had one never used one or never will know far more than those who research the subject . Some cant even grasp that unless its Illegal to do something by default it must be legal. But there you go eh ? ...............................................

I used them, proper ones that actually attach to the steering & act like a 4 wheeled steered trailer. Used for recovery as I posted. Not the type now used that relies on attaching to something that it wasn't designed for & can affect the structural integrity of a vehicle.

Can we get back to the insurance issue, please?

To summarise,

1) it isn't illegal in UK as demonstrated under UK law
2) insurance companies such as comfort are aware and have no issues
3) even mentioning it in the policy documents
4) as with all these things, one needs to speak to an insurer who knows what they are talking about, as box tickers just haven't a clue
5) always make the insurance companies aware of a) the fact and b) the modifications

!) quite right.
2,3,4,5. Probably because as it is ok @no:1 it has never occurred to them that the modifications breach the CoC of the vehicle in question & come under the anti-tampering directive. Bit like most estate agents don't realise commercial property/farms require an asbestos survey before a sale can take place

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I used them, proper ones that actually attach to the steering & act like a 4 wheeled steered trailer. Used for recovery as I posted. Not the type now used that relies on attaching to something that it wasn't designed for & can affect the structural integrity of a vehicle.



!) quite right.
2,3,4,5. Probably because as it is ok @no:1 it has never occurred to them that the modifications breach the CoC of the vehicle in question & come under the anti-tampering directive. Bit like most estate agents don't realise commercial property/farms require an asbestos survey before a sale can take place

"Probably"........... It occurred to me that the highly risk averse motor insurerance industry would actually have a good deal of knowledge about A frames after their lawyers have crawled all over it to be able to actually quote it in writing in their insurance documents. The same argument applies to your first point as well. Plus also please read the post about contacting Toyota GB for an opinion on warranty. They don't have an issue and please don't say that the motor manufacturers don't understand.

Sorry, I don't buy that argument....... so am quite willing to take the risk of being hung, drawn and quartered by my insurers and the boys in blue. Case rested

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[Gorse Hill]

Yes they did. Its retained on file.

So Toyota have confirmed in writing that an A frame attached to one of the vehicles will still conform with the original CoC document issued when manufactured or have they provided you with a revised CoC
I am interested because I have considered an A frame but a little worried that should anything happen (unlikely I know) and the s**t hits the fan could a court of law point to the fact the car wasn't designed (or have approval) for extended towing

 

[DuxDeluxe]

So Toyota have confirmed in writing that an A frame attached to one of the vehicles will still conform with the original CoC document issued when manufactured or have they provided you with a revised CoC
I am interested because I have considered an A frame but a little worried that should anything happen (unlikely I know) and the s**t hits the fan could a court of law point to the fact the car wasn't designed (or have approval) for extended towing

Well, it hasn't happened so far and certainly as far as I'm concerned, with the number out there, if it was going to happen, it would have happened already.......

.....if you don't want the risk then simply don't do it or use a trailer. End of.

This subject has been argued to death already and anyway it was about insurance and that has already been completely clarified.

 

[Jim]

Your vitriolic retort .

your silly inane comments.

For gods sake grow up

Getting personal in a discussion is against the rules, we all know this, we signed up to rule 1 when we joined.

While plenty disagreed in this thread, they did so by arguing their point and without making things personal. As soon as it get's personal, discussion breaks down. Charlie, you are banned for 1 month.

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[Judge Mental]

Can we get back to the insurance issue, please?

To summarise,

1) it isn't illegal in UK as demonstrated under UK law
2) insurance compandemonstrated under UK lawies such as comfort are aware and have no issues
3) even mentioning it in the policy documents
4) as with all these things, one needs to speak to an insurer who knows what they are talking about, as box tickers just haven't a clue
5) always make the insurance companies aware of a) the fact and b) the modifications

it has never been demonstrated under UK law, just because something has not been tested in court does not make it legal as no precedent has been set....... Mel is right regards this. OK you don't like it, fair enough! Carry on regardless.... but personally don't see the point of A framing if you cant use in Europe without landing in trouble

 

[sallylillian]

it has never been deomonstrated under UK law, just because something has not been tested in court does not make it legal as no precedent has been set....... Mel is right regards this. OK you don't like it, fair enough! Carry on regardless.... but personally don't see the point of A framing if you cant use in Europe without landing in trouble

OK, so how can it be tested as you put it in the courts if there is no law against it, what law has been broken that you would suspect need testing. Lets take substance abuse for example you can smoke, snort or swallow any substance you like, providing it is not on the illegal drugs list, but all those on there were at one time not so and taking/selling them was not a crime, until it became so in law.

 

[Judge Mental]

OK, so how can it be tested as you put it in the courts if there is no law against it, what law has been broken that you would suspect need testing. Lets take substance abuse for example you can smoke, snort or swallow any substance you like, providing it is not on the illegal drugs list, but all those on there were at one time not so and taking/selling them was not a crime, until it became so in law.

knock yourself out... I'm certainly not getting involved thanks!lol

http://ecpmlangues.u-strasbg.fr/civilization/justice-systems-us-uk-france-comparison.html

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[sallylillian]

knock yourself out... I'm certainly not getting involved thanks!lol

http://ecpmlangues.u-strasbg.fr/civilization/justice-systems-us-uk-france-comparison.html

BUT to go to court for a precedent to be set there must be a charge, the police, in the UK, cannot just go to the CPP and say we nabbed this geezer towing a motor with his motor we think he should be done. What for? Dangerous driving? ETC. If you have a licence to tow, the vehicles are roadworthy and have MOT's etc etc. I ask again, what charge do you think needs to be tested??

 

[DuxDeluxe]

it has never been deomonstrated under UK law, just because something has not been tested in court does not make it legal as no precedent has been set....... Mel is right regards this. OK you don't like it, fair enough! Carry on regardless.... but personally don't see the point of A framing if you cant use in Europe without landing in trouble

As previously explained at great length, it has been demonstrated that under UK law it is not illegal by virtue of having not been found to be illegal. That is a founding principle of uk law and sorry, you are both incorrect on this very basic legal point.

Also, I have no intention of taking the car outside uk

 

[Judge Mental]

BUT to go to court for a precedent to be set there must be a charge, the police, in the UK, cannot just go to the CPP and say we nabbed this geezer towing a motor with his motor we think he should be done. What for? Dangerous driving? ETC. If you have a licence to tow, the vehicles are roadworthy and have MOT's etc etc. I ask again, what charge do you think needs to be tested??

correct

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[Judge Mental]

Im not interested guys sorry...paint drying hold my attention span more seriously.. if you cant see it. like I said previously do what you want. I will leave it with this point

IF you feel so confident your right and can show the precedent, why are you scared to use in Europe? As you know the rest surely

 

[Judge Mental]

As previously explained at great length, it has been demonstrated that under UK law it is not illegal by virtue of having not been found to be illegal. That is a founding principle of uk law and sorry, you are both incorrect on this very basic legal point.

Also, I have no intention of taking the car outside uk

wrong...its never been tested

 

[sallylillian]

[QUOTE="

IF you feel so confident your right and can show the precedent, why are you scared to use in Europe? As you know the rest surely[/QUOTE]

Who said I was scared, be careful thats a personal insult you could be banned! And I thought you bored watching paint dry!

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[DuxDeluxe]

Im not interested guys sorry...paint drying hold my attention span more seriously.. if you cant see it. like I said previously do what you want. I will leave it with this point

IF you feel so confident your right and can show the precedent, why are you scared to use in Europe? As you know the rest surely

1) if not interested, then why comment in the first place, unless to simply stir things up??
2) As explained very many times earlier, UK law differs from the law on the continent, in that....
a) in Spain for example and also France and Germany it has been ruled to be not legal
b) in UK the principles of law are different in that case law applies and if something is not ruled to be illegal, then by definition it is legal. Simples - and this goes back almost a millennia. Heroin used to be legal......
c) because of (b) there is no need at all to show any precedent whatsoever.


Do you want to borrow some of my legal textbooks?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

wrong...its never been tested

Not so - you need to understand UK law and then think about that statement.

For someone who would rather watch paint dry, you seem to be commenting an awful lot, Eddie Don't worry, no offence taken I hope

 

[big map]

IF you feel so confident your right and can show the precedent, why are you scared to use in Europe? As you know the rest surely

Happy to take car on a frame to Europe. Will avoid Spain and Germany however happy to travel anywhere else. We were stopped by the police last summer in France I showed him Broken Link Removeddocument and he sent us on our merry way.

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