Problem shortening a twisted pair comms cable. (1 Viewer)

two

Aug 4, 2011
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Over the last couple of weeks I’ve been fitting a battery monitor. I’d have got my dealer to fit it but felt that I’d rather save a bit of cash and route the wires where they are completely out of sight rather than have trunking slapped along an upright somewhere.

The reason it’s taken me so long is that the cable between the monitor and the shunt is a 6wire twisted pair comms cable with RJ12 plugs at each end. Try, as I might, I was unable to feed the plug through the gaps available. It took about two days to get a small wire to follow the required route but anything much thicker just got stuck.

The supplied comms cable was long enough to reach halfway down a narrowboat, so I hit on the idea of cutting a length off and feeding the ‘loose’ end through the cabinetwork instead. That achieved, I simply added a new RJ12 connector and completed what I considered to be a fairly neat installation without any excess cable to hide.

To my dismay, the monitor did not work correctly (and no support from the manufacturer), so I then sourced a cable tester. The tester arrived and confirmed that the cable was faulty, so I replaced the plug I’d crimped to the cut end with another. Still no joy. After trying four times, my cable was becoming a lot shorter (wish I’d left more cable, now) but I still got a fault shown by the tester each time. I thought that the crimper may not have not ‘caught’ the flimsy wires properly but each of them would not pull out of their ‘faulty’ plug. The wires are multi-stranded, so I thought that, maybe, the pins had simply missed or made inadequate contact with a core, so I hit on the idea of soldering the original end back onto the cut one. So the reason for this post is to ask why that did not work either?

It shouldn’t be too difficult to match cables correctly and solder similar colour coding together, in spite of working in confined quarters, so I am left wondering how important it is to maintain the twist when joining such cables this way. I’m pretty sure that the joints are sound and that the supplied ends are not faulty, so what detail should I pay special attention to when joining two lengths?

Any suggestions?
:(
 

DigglyDog

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Daft question - was the cable plugged into anything when you cut it ? They're fairly sensitive to even small amounts of power being passed down and shorted out.
Failing that can you test each strand end to end to see if there is any particular strand giving issues.
Twisting shouldn't be an issue - it's mainly to keep matched pairs together.
 

SuperMike

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Who says the crimping at your end is the end that is faulty ? :)

Get another cable to check it all works and the units themselves are ok.

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D

Deleted member 29692

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It will be a crimp. Cheap Cat 5 + cheap crimper = pain in the arse.

If you're unconvinced then run a temp cable point to point and quadruple check all the crimps.

If you prove beyond all doubt that it's not the cable or the crimps then you're past DIY and you need to talk to (and probably pay) a proper engineer for the product
 
OP
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two

two

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I was tempted to believe it was the crimp - but got little joy after soldering the 'good' ends back together. Which is what led me to think that the nature of my join may be important.
 
OP
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two

two

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Daft question - was the cable plugged into anything when you cut it ? They're fairly sensitive to even small amounts of power being passed down and shorted out.
Failing that can you test each strand end to end to see if there is any particular strand giving issues.
Twisting shouldn't be an issue - it's mainly to keep matched pairs together.
No, but I did wonder if I may have stressed the wires pulling them through the tight space.
I'm kicking myself for not taking note of the error conditions but i'm pretty sure that they changed each time I amended the distant connection. That's what's making me focus on the cut end.

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OP
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two

two

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Who says the crimping at your end is the end that is faulty ? :)

Get another cable to check it all works and the units themselves are ok.
I gave it a good slap. Often does the trick, but not this time.
Will probably source a new cable to prove it's the cable...
 

ymfb

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if you read my post before I edited it, ignore it as it was all about Cat 5/6 and RJ 45.
 

DBK

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Did you say the wires are multi-strand? If so the crimper and ends commonly on sale are for the normal solid wires. I suspect they won't give a good connection with multi-strand wires.
If your cable has become too short I have a whole reel of the stuff you can have a fathom or so of for free, just PM me. It is single strand but I'm sure it will work especially if you zip tie it in place so it can't thrash about.

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D

Deleted member 29692

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so I then sourced a cable tester. The tester arrived and confirmed that the cable was faulty, so I replaced the plug I’d crimped to the cut end with another.

Did the tester not tell you which pin the fault was on? Most of them do.

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OP
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two

two

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I'm sure I did, sallylillian, but they could may jump into the wrong slot as you poke them into the plug. RJ12 is even smaller (& shorter stubs) than Cat5. That's why I thought that soldering the 'good' ends together would be pretty foolproof = easier to see the colours.
 
OP
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two

two

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Did you say the wires are multi-strand? If so the crimper and ends commonly on sale are for the normal solid wires. I suspect they won't give a good connection with multi-strand wires.
If your cable has become too short I have a whole reel of the stuff you can have a fathom or so of for free, just PM me. It is single strand but I'm sure it will work especially if you zip tie it in place so it can't thrash about.
I tend to agree with you, John. I'm about to go off shopping but will have another go with the soldering approach (I need to lengthen the cable, anyway, now) when I return. If that fails, I may take you up on a couple of fathoms of solid wire.

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Lenny HB

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Twisting shouldn't be an issue - it's mainly to keep matched pairs together.
Each pair has a different twist and therefore a different capacity it's done to reduce crosstalk between the pairs to enable high frequency signals to be passed along the cable without cross interference.
 

Lenny HB

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Did you say the wires are multi-strand? If so the crimper and ends commonly on sale are for the normal solid wires. I suspect they won't give a good connection with multi-strand wires.
If your cable has become too short I have a whole reel of the stuff you can have a fathom or so of for free, just PM me. It is single strand but I'm sure it will work especially if you zip tie it in place so it can't thrash about.
Agree you only ever see multi-stranded cable on machine therminated RJ12 & RJ45 connectors.
@rogher, did you test it and confirm all was working before you cut the cable, assuming all was OK I am wondering if in your own crimped plug you had a a single strand shorting across to the next connection and it has damaged the main unit.
Cable length could be critical depending on how the do the voltage sensing (only sensing around 50mv across the shunt at 200 amps) but as you have rejoined the cable and it is back to it's original length, I don't see a couple of inches of straight cable were you have rejoined it being a problem. Do check your connections very carefully (I know you have) if the wires are solid colour with a tracer colour they are often very poorly marked and it it easy to mistake for example a blue wire with a white tracer with a white wire with a blue tracer although your tester should show this up.
I really just stating the obvious, I've nearly pulled my hair out in the past on CAT5 cables when I've bneen convinced I got it right.:)

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Apr 27, 2016
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Cable length could be critical depending on how the do the voltage sensing (only sensing around 50mv across the shunt at 200 amps) but as you have rejoined the cable and it is back to it's original length, I don't see a couple of inches of straight cable were you have rejoined it being a problem.
The thin wires to the small terminals on the shunt can be any length, it's not important at all. That's why they use this measuring technique.

If you want some numbers, the thin wire circuit will be 50mv into at least 1 megohm, so that's a current of 50 nanoamps. An extra ohm or two in the wiring will make no difference at all.
 

DBK

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The thin wires to the small terminals on the shunt can be any length, it's not important at all. That's why they use this measuring technique.

If you want some numbers, the thin wire circuit will be 50mv into at least 1 megohm, so that's a current of 50 nanoamps. An extra ohm or two in the wiring will make no difference at all.
It depends how the device is wired. My NASA BM1 has three wires going to the shunt, which is a copper bar with a very low resistance. One wire goes to one side of the shunt and the two others are joined together at the terminal on the other side of the shunt. The instructions are very clear that they must be connected there and not at the monitor end of the cable. It must use those two wires to assess the resistance of the cable so it can calculate the voltage across the shunt. The resistance of the cable is critical as the monitor can only calculate the voltage across the shunt by what it measures at the monitor end of the cables.
A monitor without this system of two joined wires would only work if the cable was a known resistance, that is one not shortened. However I suspect they all use the joined wires trick as this method would also compensate for any changes in resistance due to temperature. The temperature coefficient of copper is about 0.4% so a 10 degree Celsius change in temperature will change the resistance by 4% - which is a lot given temperature changes could by much more than this.
 
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two

two

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I've returned to the scene and redone the wires. Pin 5 failed again, so I'm beginning to think it may be the cable. I don't believe in flukes.

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D

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I've returned to the scene and redone the wires. Pin 5 failed again, so I'm beginning to think it may be the cable. I don't believe in flukes.

Have you changed the plugs on both ends?
 
OP
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two

two

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No. I'm running out of plugs now. I'd like to think that the original plugs were fitted reliably.
Plan B is to bypass the installed wire with a new one (wire supplied by @DBK) and prove to myself that it will all work. Then remove the old wire and replace it if it does. But I may just try adding a new plug to the end of old wire before that, just in case the fault was in the wiring of the plug.
I started off buying plugs @ £1.90ea from Maplin. Now I'm about to get 10 for that price off the internet, plus P&P.
 
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Apr 27, 2016
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It must use those two wires to assess the resistance of the cable so it can calculate the voltage across the shunt. The resistance of the cable is critical as the monitor can only calculate the voltage across the shunt by what it measures at the monitor end of the cables.

A standard shunt has four wires: two thick wires that carry the heavy current, and two thin wires that sense the tiny voltage between the two shunt terminals (yellow and white for the BM1). How tiny? 50 millivolts for 100 amps, so 0.5 millivolts (500 microvolts) for a 1 amp reading. So an extra voltage of less that a millivolt will cause a significant inaccuracy.

The BM1 is powered from the battery it is monitoring, so it needs a positive and negative connection. The positive (red) is straightforward. For the negative, it is tempting to simply use the white wire, because that goes straight back to the battery terminal. But if that is done, the powering current could introduce voltages in the wire, large enough to cause measurement inaccuracies. To make very sure that no extraneous current travels along the shunt sense wires, there is an extra negative wire (black) going all the way back to the shunt.

The result is that the length of the cable is not critical, and varying it will not introduce any inaccuracies.

It certainly won't be causing the complete failure that the OP is reporting to us.

Anyway, I think everything I've said so far is a complete red herring. The OP is talking about an RJ12 connection. That's what you get on a shunt with a built-in circuit board like the Victron types. It measures the current directly at the shunt, and reports it back to the sensor by a data connection. In that case, the length of the wire will not be the problem at all. Data connections are not sensitive to length variations of a metre or two.

I agree that it's most likely to be the stranded cable into a standard IDC crimp that will have caused the problem, but it sounds like you need to check with a known good RJ12 cable to see if the whole system is still working.

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OP
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two

two

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Finally (well, I hope it is) some feedback:

After completely rewiring, it would seem that the +ve feed (to BMV-702) had a poor contact. Everything seems to be working as it should, now...

It all goes to show how much better things might be if you buy over the counter (or have a dealer fit). In this case I bought from Amazon. Those folks are all about sales & delivery but do not provide after sales support (in my case) and the manufacturer refers you back to the retailer.
 
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