Problem charging lithium (1 Viewer)

[Pausim]

Have you tried disconnecting the main feed from the engine battery at B1 and taken the voltages at the B1 terminal and at the disconnected wire, both with the engine off and when it is running? I think this would help decide whether the problem is in the DS300 or on the engine battery wiring. You will need to be careful when doing this, temporarily disconnecting both batteries while removing the connection would be safest until you have tied the wire safely away from coming into contact with anything else.

 

[andy63]

I'm just looking in again as I'm intrigued

I've had a circut before where you could read a voltage with a meter under no load and as soon as there was a load it went open circut..didnt take long to find the culprit ..a large maxi blade fuse..that hadnt gone properly....
Andy..

 

[Bore1]

Have you tried disconnecting the main feed from the engine battery at B1 and taken the voltages at the B1 terminal and at the disconnected wire, both with the engine off and when it is running? I think this would help decide whether the problem is in the DS300 or on the engine battery wiring. You will need to be careful when doing this, temporarily disconnecting both batteries while removing the connection would be safest until you have tied the wire safely away from coming into contact with anything else.

When B1 off i read same as startbattery on the cable. 12.9 when engine off, and 13.7 when engine on.

The B1 terminal reads 0V all the time.
So problem has to be in the box i think.

i took a drive today to see if i get the damn thing charging and noticed that the fridge is not working on 12V either. And i noticed the fuse on the far right (battery split, fridge, electric step) has no power trough it. As pointed out before it has been changed from origanaly 3 amps to 10 amps. Maybe when the charging light started flashing and making a loud clicking sound something got burned because of the to large fuse? As the batterysplit probably is a integrated relay on the ds300 somewhere its hard to find out.

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[stevewagner]

The CBE 510/516 battery charger has a gel setting that increases the output voltage to 14.3V, which is sufficient to give a reasonable charge to most lithium batteries. It works ok with my Relion lithium battery.

He has the ds300 which doesn't have a lithium setting

 

[autorouter]

Here's a wild guess that might be worth looking into. The split charge relay (I think it's the big square black component above the B1 terminal) will have a snubber diode connected across the coil. Its purpose is to suppress the inductive spike that happens when the coil turns off. If the snubber diode fails, it might be a low resistance path that will draw extra current from the 3A fuse, causing it to blow. It might not draw enough current to blow a 10A fuse. The voltage across the coil might drop, so it is intermittent, clicking on and off. Or it might stop the split charge relay working completely.

 

[Bore1]

Great news guys!
After i disconnected B1 things are back in buisness now i get power trough the fuse i talked about, and i get power to B2 also.

Now when egine is running, the voltage on B1 is 13.4
And also 13.4 on B2 lithium.
I assume the lithium sucks so much power that the voltage is only 13.4 on both.

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[autorouter]

I assume the lithium sucks so much power that the voltage is only 13.4 on both.

This is a known problem with lithium batteries. Their low internal resistance can overload the alternator, and can damage it. With a B2B on lithium setting, the current from the alternator is controlled to a sensible maximum value, instead of whatever the battery demands. One more reason to get a B2B.

Careful - Alternator Charging Lithium - Victron Energy

Charging lithium batteries from an alternator, be that in a boat or vehicle, presents some challenges when compared to the straightforward nature of charging lead based batteries. The video in this blog highlights these lithium challenges and shows you what can happen when things go wrong –...

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[Pausim]

He has the ds300 which doesn't have a lithium setting

Yes it seems to be the same as my one. Even without a lithium profile it can achieve 14.3V on the gel setting which is within the limits of my Relion. It might not achieve the maximum charge but I don’t think that matters when you are on a mains hook up. Undercharging lithium batteries does them no harm, unlike lead acid ones. I only worry about a full charge when I am going to be off grid and the B2B takes care of that.

 

[andy63]

Thats great that it appears to be working as it should now.. I'm sure I dont need to tell you that 13.4 volts won't charge your leisure battery..
I would expect to see the alternator voltage rise to meet load requirements..
Andy

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[Bore1]

I will get me a B2B and a batterymonitor. No point of having lithium and use it as a lead battery.

Thank you guys for all the help. I have been really frustrated because i thought i had good knowlege on a 12v system as i have built a couple of vans and lived in a boat, but the lithium and ds300 are some next level stuff. I have learned alot from you
I will probably ask again when fitting a b2b

 

[Pausim]

Not many battery monitors are calibrated for Li batteries. The Victron BMV ones can be adjusted to suit all battery types.

 

[Adrian Mudle]

Word of caution when you fit a B2B your mains charger may not charge you engine battery, as you will have bypassed the split charge relay, I had this problem, when fitting Lithium, and my solution was to fit a battery master (VanBitz) which connects between the two batteries, and will only pass charge to the engine battery when the Lithium are around 0.7 volts above the engine battery, this has worked fine for me.

My Lithiums used an external BMS (all Victron) and I was worried about the potential ability to draw to much current from the alternator at low revs, though in practice I never saw much above 30A charging the Lithiums, however its now limited by the B2B to 30A, so the alternator should never overheat!!

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[LeccyLee]

Forgive me for jumping on an old thread, but its best way to get help from topics experts, whereas if I post a new topic they may miss it.
(welcome to move admin if offends).

I have a 2005 IH Oregon, with the a similar CBE DS300 unit, I am trying to add a new Victron Orion B2B and disable the original CBE split charging, of course leaving everything else the CBE does intact, such as fridge with engine etc etc.

I found this topic as I was searching for Resistor R37, as all over the internet it says remove R37 job done.. However like Bore1 my DS300 doesn't have the R37 next to the connector either. I guess being 2005 its maybe a much older DS300? Mine is even different again to Bore1's version (no microswitch even).

Would appreciate any help on disabling the original CBE alternator charging, in fact advice on if I actually need to? As some advice on Facebook was to just leave it alone, "won't hurt having both running at same time"? Which sounds a bad idea to me, thoughts?

 

[autorouter]

The split charge relay is that black plastic box in the lower right, labelled RL6 I think. To find out how to disable it, you'd need a view of the other side of the PCB. The relay will have two or three big power contacts, and two coil contacts. There will be a diode connected across the coil. One side of the coil will go to negative ground, and the other will go to a copper track on the PCB, which will lead to either a connector, a resistor or (if you're lucky) a jumper.

To disable the relay you either remove the jumper, cut/remove the resistor, or if there's no other option, cut the PCB track. Another possibility is to remove (by desoldering) the split charge relay.

 

[LeccyLee]

The split charge relay is that black plastic box in the lower right, labelled RL6 I think. To find out how to disable it, you'd need a view of the other side of the PCB. The relay will have two or three big power contacts, and two coil contacts. There will be a diode connected across the coil. One side of the coil will go to negative ground, and the other will go to a copper track on the PCB, which will lead to either a connector, a resistor or (if you're lucky) a jumper.

To disable the relay you either remove the jumper, cut/remove the resistor, or if there's no other option, cut the PCB track. Another possibility is to remove (by desoldering) the split charge relay.

Thank you, I may need to get in there properly then as always they not located in easy locations!

How about my question on just leaving it be? As if I don’t need to disable then why bother?

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[Pausim]

I think you do need to disable it but rather than disable the original relay you could add another relay to the engine battery connection that disconnects the connection at the same time that the original one connects it. That is what I did.

There are other ways of doing this but that depends on the original wiring and B2B output. What size Orion B2B are you getting?

 

[LeccyLee]

It’s a 12/12-30

 

[LeccyLee]

I think you do need to disable it but rather than disable the original relay you could add another relay to the engine battery connection that disconnects the connection at the same time that the original one connects it. That is what I did.

There are other ways of doing this but that depends on the original wiring and B2B output. What size Orion B2B are you getting?

Hmm really trying to keep it as simple as possible, why can’t I have R37 like everyone else! Haha

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[Pausim]

Hmm really trying to keep it as simple as possible, why can’t I have R37 like everyone else! Haha

I didn’t want to remove the resistor even though I have one.

I think the relay in the DS300 is rated at more than 30A so provided your wiring is suitably sized you should be able to feed the B2B directly into the DS300 instead of the existing engine battery connection. No need to mess about with relays if you can but you best check the ratings first. The first clue would be the rating of the fuse on the engine battery connection to the DS300 at the engine battery end. A 50A fuse is normal on continental motorhomes but not on some UK ones.

 

[LeccyLee]

Struggling to find a suitable NC relay?
Hundreds of damn NO relays to suit, typical.

 

[Lenny HB]

Struggling to find a suitable NC relay?
Hundreds of damn NO relays to suit, typical.

Buy a change over relay & use the NC contacts.

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[LeccyLee]

Buy a change over relay & use the NC contacts.

Yea but was trying to find one with decent connections (IE 6mm studs for lugs) and everything is so far needing bases and spades.. Silly as 100s of NO relays with nice M6 studs! Hmmm

 

[LeccyLee]

For example, this is perfect if it was NC...

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[Lenny HB]

Yea but was trying to find one with decent connections (IE 6mm studs for lugs) and everything is so far needing bases and spades.. Silly as 100s of NO relays with nice M6 studs! Hmmm

I see what you mean, doesn't appear to exist with studs.

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[Pausim]

I gave up looking for one with studs and went for one of these and a bulkhead socket. Has been working for over 2 years without any problems.

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Durite 12Vdc changeover relay from Arc Components Ltd. Automotive 12 Volts 80-100A heavy-duty changeover switch relay. 3 x 9.5mm and 2 x 6.3mm brass terminals.

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[LeccyLee]

Im sure it does, just the electrician in me says im not comfy with such current on spades etc...

I gave up looking for one with studs and went for one of these and a bulkhead socket. Has been working for over 2 years without any problems.

https://www.arc-components.com/0-72...d-changeover-relay-with-resistor-2127.html[/U

http://

 

[Pausim]

Im sure it does, just the electrician in me says im not comfy with such current on spades etc...

http://

If you find one please post to say where you found it.

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[LeccyLee]

If you find one please post to say where you found it.

For past three days I've been testing my new install with the B1 feed to DS300 completing removed (IE: No relay even). Seems all good, fridge still runs with engine ok, step still retracts with engine start, only thing of course is control panel shows alarm for flat starter battery, which I can live with.

So, still under testing for another week maybe, but I may just not bother with relay and just keep it permanently un-connected.