Petition for Aires in UK (1 Viewer)

[Deleted member 29692]

A thought how it could be set up to work using the 6mtr rules , it states a car can park next to the caravan/motorhome then a 3mtr gap to the next part so in theory it is a 3mtr gap between Motorhomes providing no awning or tents in between. That means the C&MC or ??? Could provide A smaller space for Motorhomes so they therefore could charge less?
A traditional caravan parking space is 9mtr and a Motorhomes would only be 6mtr so saving a third?

https://www.campingandcaravanningcl...=fAAyADgANQAyADEAfAB8AFQAcgB1AGUAfAB8ADAAfAA1

The big companies might use it, it gives them a ready made excuse to over charge. I can think of no good reason why anyone else would bother.

We've already established that it's not a requirement of the Act.

Any kind of spacing rules of this nature would make stopovers on either council car parks or private land completely unviable. It wastes far too much space.

 

[SandJ]

If it did happen that either of the big clubs set up "stopover" sites I think that is quite likely to be a solution to the spacing question.

Yes Graham and then if you cut out the toilet block and all the pretty trees and bushes, kids play area, dog walk wardens and other staff areas then a site of say 100 acres would only need to be about 40 acres, no wages to pay (except caretaker type person) then it looks a lot more viable?

 

[Puddleduck]

With the Edinburgh Fringe Festival promoted to presumably attract visitors it seems odd that some now wish to control the number of visitors , weird.

Events like that are a great argument for the THSs run by the C&CC.
Just a couple of weeks ago we were at one at the Drum Estate (20 minutes to half an hour by bus) run specifically to cater for visitors to the Fringe.
Several are run each year for Blackpool Illuminations.

I was in Edinburgh today looking at the Drum Estate camping field ready for next year's MHF rally. The field looks ideal by the way. Edinburgh itself was heaving ...... I went through the centre by bus (didn't get off in the centre) and it took 90 minutes to do a journey timetabled at 50.

Now Edinburgh is used to crowds and a big influx of visitors and generally copes well, however the success of the NC500 is a completely different matter and I understand how people who live and work in the area affected are rather upset at the lack of facilities and infrastructure provided for the visitors. The news report I posted a link to was shown in full on our regional news and the Edinburgh report was a tiny fraction of the whole but for some reason the BBC has chosen to cut the rest of the report!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Puddleduck]

Oh, the "6 metre rule" - I think that the spacing of the vans is specified in the MHF rally insurance - so I am wondering if insurance requirements may be the reason the spacing rule is in place, but then again maybe the clubs informed the insurance who now set the spacing rule which we all adhere to and so the circle continues.

 

[scotjimland]

Oh, the "6 metre rule" - I think that the spacing of the vans is specified in the MHF rally insurance - so I am wondering if insurance requirements may be the reason the spacing rule is in place, but then again maybe the clubs informed the insurance who now set the spacing rule which we all adhere to and so the circle continues.

Spacing was not set by the Clubs>>

Model Standards 2008 for Caravan Sites in England

Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 – Section 5

http://webarchive.nationalarchives..../documents/housing/pdf/modelstandards2008.pdf

 

[Barclaybasher]

Spacing was not set by the Clubs>>
Model Standards 2008 for Caravan Sites in England
Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 – Section 5
http://webarchive.nationalarchives..../documents/housing/pdf/modelstandards2008.pdf

www.Fireservice.co.uk .............
Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out.
Many other vehicle fires break out simply due to a lack of basic maintenance and can be prevented.

35,000 non deliberate, 100 a week

How many caravans or motorhomes? I suspect very few

The distance between cars in most carparks is 1 metre

Vauxhall Zafiras and some BMWs are at a greater fire risk of catching fire

There are some motorhomes I would rather be at least 3 metres from

........................ but not for fire safety

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

www.Fireservice.co.uk .............
Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out.
Many other vehicle fires break out simply due to a lack of basic maintenance and can be prevented.

35,000 non deliberate, 100 a week

How many caravans or motorhomes? I suspect very few

The distance between cars in most carparks is 1 metre

Vauxhall Zafiras and some BMWs are at a greater fire risk of catching fire

There are some motorhomes I would rather be at least 3 metres from

........................ but not for fire safety

what is your point.. ??

I gave a link to show @Puddleduck where the regs came from.. not to debate them !

 

[Barclaybasher]

what is your point.. ??
I gave a link to show @Puddleduck where the regs came from.. not to debate them !

The point is that using the distance rule (I think it was at Hayling Island) for parking motorhomes is just another excuse put forward by an LA to ban us

Surely the whole thread is a debate.........

 

[GJH]

Yes Graham and then if you cut out the toilet block and all the pretty trees and bushes, kids play area, dog walk wardens and other staff areas then a site of say 100 acres would only need to be about 40 acres, no wages to pay (except caretaker type person) then it looks a lot more viable?

Yes Steve. The clubs (if they are to become involved) have to start thinking of stopovers as an alternative model.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

The point is that using the distance rule (I think it was at Hayling Island) for parking motorhomes is just another excuse put forward by an LA to ban us

Dis you not read the response from Havant Council giving the full reasons for the ban? They had good reason to act as they did.

 

[scotjimland]

The point is that using the distance rule (I think it was at Hayling Island) for parking motorhomes is just another excuse put forward by an LA to ban us

Surely the whole thread is a debate.........

since I didn't give an opinion, .. you are arguing with yourself..

 

[GJH]

The big companies might use it, it gives them a ready made excuse to over charge. I can think of no good reason why anyone else would bother.

We've already established that it's not a requirement of the Act.

Any kind of spacing rules of this nature would make stopovers on either council car parks or private land completely unviable. It wastes far too much space.

I think you're doing the clubs a disservice.
The 6m spacing isn't mandatory under the 1960 Act but that is not the same as saying it is not a requirement.
The fact that DeFRA/NE have included them in the model standards and that LAs have not, in general, relaxed them (plus their application to rallies) indicates their efficacy for conventional sites.
As mentioned in previous posts, stopovers would be an alternative so potentially the standards could be, justifiably, different.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Barclaybasher]

since I didn't give an opinion, .. you are arguing with yourself..

I often do

 

[sdc77]

www.Fireservice.co.uk .............
Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out.
Many other vehicle fires break out simply due to a lack of basic maintenance and can be prevented.

35,000 non deliberate, 100 a week

How many caravans or motorhomes? I suspect very few

The distance between cars in most carparks is 1 metre

Vauxhall Zafiras and some BMWs are at a greater fire risk of catching fire

There are some motorhomes I would rather be at least 3 metres from

........................ but not for fire safety

The point is that using the distance rule (I think it was at Hayling Island) for parking motorhomes is just another excuse put forward by an LA to ban us

Surely the whole thread is a debate.........

A car fire that happens whilst parked with the occupants sleeping is unlikely to cause fatalities. And very unlikely to cause fatalities in the people sleeping in the car in the next parking space....
For obvious reasons ...

Motorhomes with their limited exits and easily combustible shells with lots of combustible material on board and multiple occupants sleeping are quite obviously a much greater risk should a fire occur.

 

[SandJ]

Any kind of spacing rules of this nature would make stopovers on either council car parks or private land completely unviable. It wastes far too much space.

But what if they stated no cooking allowed between 9am and 6pm (yes I know not enforsable) they could use the spaces as normal parking and therefore no wasted space

If the 3 mtr rule was applied on ?? Land then a charge of £8-10 is doable by a lot of underused land. There was land facing a fully fledged car park in Leeds that was used as parking just on rough ground very cheap. There is places in most towns that have rough ground and they could have say a local shop selling the parking tickets (similar to some places in France) you could even get the said shop to police the land and issue parking tickets (they get part of the fine )

Just thoughts I know but everything is usually achievable with some thoughts/ideas tossed about and usually a solution is found. Aires in this country is not a definite no no it just needs to be adjusted.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Deleted member 29692]

But what if they stated no cooking allowed between 9am and 6pm (yes I know not enforsable) they could use the spaces as normal parking and therefore no wasted space

Cooking is irrelevant. Any habitation including sleeping in the vehicle is defined as camping by the Act so if you want the 6m nonsense to apply to camping then it applies to everything.

Realistically stopovers are not going to happen on privately owned land for the reasons already discussed.

That leaves LA land and, again as already discussed, they have some flexibility with the model standards when using Para 11 so forget the 6m rule. It’s not important or relevant.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

they could have say a local shop selling the parking tickets (similar to some places in France) you could even get the said shop to police the land and issue parking tickets (they get part of the fine )

There are so many H&S reasons why that couldn’t happen here it’s not even worth talking about.


Once again this isn’t France. What happens there has no bearing whatsoever on what does or might happen here.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I’m bored of the whole spacing and fire debate

Can someone provide me with some stats please:

1. In the U.K. in the last 5 years (or whatever timeframe you choose) how many motorhomes have caught fire as a direct result of being parked less than 6m from another motorhome?

2. In the same timeframe how many motorhomers have been damaged or destroyed in road traffic accident?


If the answer to question 2 is a higher number than the answer to question 1 why are people not saying it’s too risky to drive a motorhome?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[chaser]

There are so many H&S reasons why that couldn’t happen here it’s not even worth talking about.


Once again this isn’t France. What happens there has no bearing whatsoever on what does or might happen here.

apart from common sense reasons that could be applied, eu law has superceded many laws in this country why not in this?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

apart from common sense reasons that could be applied, eu law has superceded many laws in this country why not in this?

U.K. standards in things like H&S have always been higher.

There has never been a requirement for anyone to adopt lower standards in order to apply EU law.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Dis you not read the response from Havant Council giving the full reasons for the ban? They had good reason to act as they did.

I would back any move to stop folks camping on any seafront, carpark or any unlicenced land for days on end.

Parking (even overnight) could be tolerated on a 24 hour limit, no return for say 48 hours paid for - pay and display with heavy penalties for overstaying - obviously the 1960 act would have to be scrapped/modified

Most LAs will have parking enforcement and let's not forget parking charges provide a substantial income

Some LAs will sometimes provide portaloos and skips for travelers and have to pay to clear sites after they have left - all eventually paid for by us taxpayers so I don't see why something can't be done for us

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

I would back any move to stop folks camping on any seafront, carpark or any unlicenced land for days on end.

Parking (even overnight) could be tolerated on a 24 hour limit, no return for say 48 hours paid for - pay and display with heavy penalties for overstaying - obviously the 1960 act would have to be scrapped/modified

Most LAs will have parking enforcement and let's not forget parking charges provide a substantial income

That may be so but that is nothing to do with the ban at Hayling Island (as Havant explained and I posted)

Some LAs will sometimes provide portaloos and skips for travelers and have to pay to clear sites after they have left - all eventually paid for by us taxpayers so I don't see why something can't be done for us

The reason they do that is that they take the least damaging approach they can to the legislation which they are forced to work with.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[GJH]

apart from common sense reasons that could be applied, eu law has superceded many laws in this country why not in this?

EU law does not supersede national legislation in any country. Members of the EU, having agreed a directive, legislate individually to implement the directive (which is why, because of the mess Blair made of it, our HRA fails to provide the derogations implemented in other countries.

Apart from that, exactly what influence does any EU directive have on the subject under discussion (provision of aires)?
Indeed, does the EU actually have any influence on provision of aires in other countries or are they simply covered by domestic legislation as are caravan sites in this country?

 

[chaser]

EU law does not supersede national legislation in any country. Members of the EU, having agreed a directive, legislate individually to implement the directive (which is why, because of the mess Blair made of it, our HRA fails to provide the derogations implemented in other countries.

Apart from that, exactly what influence does any EU directive have on the subject under discussion (provision of aires)?
Indeed, does the EU actually have any influence on provision of aires in other countries or are they simply covered by domestic legislation as are caravan sites in this country?

didnt understand 80% of that im afraid but if you are talking about french aires , i wasnt , i was just meaning parking motorhomes in general anywhere.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

didnt understand 80% of that im afraid but if you are talking about french aires , i wasnt , i was just meaning parking motorhomes in general anywhere.

The same principles apply regarding the EU.

 

[SandJ]

There are so many H&S reasons why that couldn’t happen here it’s not even worth talking about.


Once again this isn’t France. What happens there has no bearing whatsoever on what does or might happen here.

Sorry but???
France is only an example it is nearly every European country that can provide what we are after without flaunting their H&S laws so that could be the basis of the argument? They are not third world countries are they? Besides it was putting the whole parking,camping saga into a pot and pulling out bits that may work or be altered. I’m sick of hearing we are not France and that this country won’t allow it. THAT is the BIGGEST problem we create laws but they are just accepted and adhered to, but other countries just don’t accept it.
We are hearing free, facilities this or that well it’s farcical and ludicrous that someone buys a Motorhome at great expense (compared to a caravan) and uses it like a caravan, doesn’t use it for 5/6 months but that’s their choice and my choice to use mine. We don’t wild camp much in this country it’s mainly too much hassle but we very rarely use sites abroad, again our choice. The point being CHOICE something we don’t have much of in this country compared to others.

 

[sdc77]

Sorry but???
France is only an example it is nearly every European country that can provide what we are after without flaunting their H&S laws so that could be the basis of the argument? They are not third world countries are they? Besides it was putting the whole parking,camping saga into a pot and pulling out bits that may work or be altered. I’m sick of hearing we are not France and that this country won’t allow it. THAT is the BIGGEST problem we create laws but they are just accepted and adhered to, but other countries just don’t accept it.
We are hearing free, facilities this or that well it’s farcical and ludicrous that someone buys a Motorhome at great expense (compared to a caravan) and uses it like a caravan, doesn’t use it for 5/6 months but that’s their choice and my choice to use mine. We don’t wild camp much in this country it’s mainly too much hassle but we very rarely use sites abroad, again our choice. The point being CHOICE something we don’t have much of in this country compared to others.

I can see your argument but the aires in France (As an example) are a way of life and expected. It's never been like that here and ..of course.. motorhomes are a tiny minority and village/town centre overnight camping for them is not wanted by the people in those places ..often because of bad experiences and also because they want/need their money to be spent on other things.
I don't for one minute accept that a parking space taken up by a motorhome (often with only 2 people in it) puts more money into the local community than a car (typically with more than 2 people in it)

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[SandJ]

I can see your argument but the aires in France (As an example) are a way of life and expected. It's never been like that here and ..of course.. motorhomes are a tiny minority and village/town centre overnight camping for them is not wanted by the people in those places ..often because of bad experiences and also because they want/need their money to be spent on other things.
I don't for one minute accept that a parking space taken up by a motorhome (often with only 2 people in it) puts more money into the local community than a car (typically with more than 2 people in it)

Sorry what is your comment trying to say? A way of life? A tiny minority where, here or France? Sorry I'm lost!!

 

[vwalan]

Sorry what is your comment trying to say? A way of life? A tiny minority where, here or France? Sorry I'm lost!!

aires came about in france as years ago motorhomes werent allowed on campsites . it may surprise you but tents only .there was hardly any caravans and they also werent allowed on campsites .
as tents started to disappear and folk had more money m,homes started to be the way forward . clubs and manufacturers got together and hassled authority to have aires . many were 24 hr stops in railway stations , church carparks , market places etc .
the m,home users had been just parking where ever they could and making a mess where ever they stopped. locals were glad that aires came about.
certainly traveling in a m,home in the 60,s 70,s and early 80,s wasnt that good in many france villages . most aires were free to start with.
uk you could use campsites so thats why uk is different to france . uk did and still does have loads caravans as well.

 

[GJH]

aires came about in france as years ago motorhomes werent allowed on campsites . it may surprise you but tents only .there was hardly any caravans and they also werent allowed on campsites .
as tents started to disappear and folk had more money m,homes started to be the way forward . clubs and manufacturers got together and hassled authority to have aires . many were 24 hr stops in railway stations , church carparks , market places etc .
the m,home users had been just parking where ever they could and making a mess where ever they stopped. locals were glad that aires came about.
certainly traveling in a m,home in the 60,s 70,s and early 80,s wasnt that good in many france villages . most aires were free to start with.
uk you could use campsites so thats why uk is different to france . uk did and still does have loads caravans as well.

Thank you.
Interesting that you say "m,home users had been just parking where ever they could and making a mess where ever they stopped. locals were glad that aires came about." because the provisions of the Public Health Act 1937 which controlled camping and the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 resulted from similar problems caused by tent and caravan camping respectively.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}