Petition for Aires in UK (1 Viewer)

[chaser]

So, in summary, what we should all do is when we identify a suitable unused car-park is to petition our local council. That is YOU, not SOMEBODY!

I'm sure Graham can provide a suitable letter wording after all the work he's done in the past.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic - if you want it you have to be prepared to go out and get it.

i am afraid i am not one who talks to councils , i would just lose my temper with them as you have probably seen with my exchanges with @GJH who i have nothing against at all apart from his council speak, but if someone who can talk to them wantys to have a go i would be willing to support them in any way that would help.

 

[chaser]

If the councils are sitting on unused car parks then they should be handing them over to the planning department to build affordable homes for the needy. Housing is in short supply case you haven't noticed, unlike overnight parking for hobbyists which is already plentiful. Permanent money in the shops from these new tenants would be real income for local business rather than the odd ice cream to self contained second home owners.....

houseing in short supply you want to come and have a look round uttoxeter, they are building more houses than there was already in town. and on greenfield sites i might add whole 100 acre good farms all going to houses and they have just approved another 400 on another farm

 

[GJH]

If the councils are sitting on unused car parks then they should be handing them over to the planning department to build affordable homes for the needy. Housing is in short supply case you haven't noticed, unlike overnight parking for hobbyists which is already plentiful. Permanent money in the shops from these new tenants would be real income for local business rather than the odd ice cream to self contained second home owners.....

To be fair, I'm sure the word "unused" in this case refers to not being used by daytime commuters, shoppers &c, rather than being completely empty 24 hours a day.
What is not always appreciated is that daytime usage in some locations may start around 6am or 7am (early start commuters) and finish around 10pm, 11pm or later (evening economy users and workers). If motorhome owners want to arrive about 6pm/7pm (say) and have a lie in to leave around 9am (say) next day (or even pay to stay all day and a second night) then "unused" no longer applies.

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[chaser]

I agree but I'm afraid you're flogging a dead horse Terry
I've posted similar messages on a number of occasions, and the latest letter template has been available for just shy of four years.

dont understand your letter template, its just about you, so who have you sent it to?

 

[GJH]

i am afraid i am not one who talks to councils , i would just lose my temper with them as you have probably seen with my exchanges with @GJH who i have nothing against at all apart from his council speak, but if someone who can talk to them wantys to have a go i would be willing to support them in any way that would help.

Nothing personal but if the subject is important enough then such difficulties can be overcome. The majority of the work is in gathering the evidence rather than in communicating it.

 

[GJH]

dont understand your letter template, its just about you, so who have you sent it to?

Of course it is based on me, who else would I base it on?
I didn't write it for my own use but in response to posts such as Terry's requesting that I provide something (posts which I could have found an excuse to ignore).
It is just an example that other people can alter rather than have to start from a blank sheet of paper.

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[buttons]

houseing in short supply you want to come and have a look round uttoxeter, they are building more houses than there was already in town. and on greenfield sites i might add whole 100 acre good farms all going to houses and they have just approved another 400 on another farm

Sounds like you are wishing and hoping chaser, sorry to disappoint but building on farm land doesn't come easy.
You spoke about inner city/town empty car parks where everyone wants to live which reflects the land value being so high. Single mums just dont want to be stuck out in the sticks they want to be where it is happening.

 

[chaser]

Sounds like you are wishing and hoping chaser, sorry to disappoint but building on farm land doesn't come easy.
You spoke about inner city/town empty car parks where everyone wants to live which reflects the land value being so high. Single mums just dont want to be stuck out in the sticks they want to be where it is happening.

so why are they miles out of town when the old bamfords factory in the centre of town lies deralict?

 

[Barclaybasher]

so why are they miles out of town when the old bamfords factory in the centre of town lies deralict?

Friargate Goods Yard, next to Derby City Centre, derelict for 50 years...............scandalous

Just a part of the site.......

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[GJH]

Friargate Goods Yard, next to Derby City Centre, derelict for 50 years...............scandalous

Just a part of the site.......

A good example of the bottom line being profit for the owners, even where they have obtained planning consent for development.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Given that some organisation would have to be in control there would necessarily be some form of regulation and some CLs aren't far off what seems to be wanted.
We stayed at one, in Forest Row, which is only a few minutes walk from village amenities and bus services but was just a field with fresh water and waste facilities, no EHU.
The legislation is in place to enable the creation of stopovers/aires; all that is needed is for somebody to do it - but they will only do so if they see a return.

CLs are nowhere even close to what is wanted or needed as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t mind using them if the location is perfect but they aren’t anywhere near the ideal model for overnight stopovers.

All I want from a stopover is location first and a patch of tarmac 1m longer and wider than my van second.

Water, waste, EHU, outside space, grass, view and anything else is of no interest whatsoever if I’m just parking up for the night.

If they are going to be modelled on anything then the pub stop/Britstop model is closer to what’s needed.

 

[funflair]

CLs are nowhere even close to what is wanted or needed as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t mind using them if the location is perfect but they aren’t anywhere near the ideal model for overnight stopovers.

All I want from a stopover is location first and a patch of tarmac 1m longer and wider than my van second.

Water, waste, EHU, outside space, grass, view and anything else is of no interest whatsoever if I’m just parking up for the night.

If they are going to be modelled on anything then the pub stop/Britstop model is closer to what’s needed.

But if you just want to park for the night it sort of spoils the argument for councils providing the facility so that people can visit the town and spend a bit in the shops thereby adding benefit to their ratepaying business's.

Martin

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[Deleted member 29692]

But if you just want to park for the night it sort of spoils the argument for councils providing the facility so that people can visit the town and spend a bit in the shops thereby adding benefit to their ratepaying business's.

Martin

When we park for the night we will always at the very least find a pub for a few drinks and a meal.

If we’re parked up early enough we’ll spend more time and money wherever we are.

 

[Barclaybasher]

CLs and sites - open all year? yeah right - try 'parking' on wet grass - all I want is somewhere to park for the night, empty the cassette, fill up with water......and if there's a pub with food nearby - bonus !.........and I don't mind paying!!

Motorhomes (mine) travel in the Winter as well............Caravans are parked up in Winter.........

We need different facilities!

 

[Puddleduck]

My post wasn't about motorhome camping, but a general one. Too many people complain about things not getting done but run a mile when you suggest they help.

Anybody can do it, Somebody should do it but Nobody actually does it .....

It does reinforce the need for Aires in the U.K. to encourage motorhome tourists and their money from the continent .

On the BBC Scottish news today - overtourism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-45238689/how-much-tourism-is-overtourism

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[Deleted member 29692]

On the BBC Scottish news today - overtourism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-45238689/how-much-tourism-is-overtourism

That's actually a very fair question.

We're a small, over populated island with limited space. How many visitors can popular locations sensibly cope with?

 

[Puddleduck]

We'd like to visit Norwich next February but the CCC site is shut then ...... it has to be February as that is when our son needs us to babysit and we want to use the family history research facilities in the city. Not sure where we will stay....... or even if we will bother to visit at all.

 

[Larrynwin]

Anybody can do it, Somebody should do it but Nobody actually does it .....



On the BBC Scottish news today - overtourism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-45238689/how-much-tourism-is-overtourism

With the Edinburgh Fringe Festival promoted to presumably attract visitors it seems odd that some now wish to control the number of visitors , weird.

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[scotjimland]

Motorhomes (mine) travel in the Winter as well............Caravans are parked up in Winter.........

"Caravans are parked up in Winter." .. Not Mine..

lots of caravaners go away in winter, try booking a site up at Christmas or New Year

many CLs and nearly all sites have hard standings ..

there are thousands of motorhomes that sit on drives or are in storage in the winter, so you cannot generalise ..

 

[GJH]

CLs are nowhere even close to what is wanted or needed as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t mind using them if the location is perfect but they aren’t anywhere near the ideal model for overnight stopovers.

All I want from a stopover is location first and a patch of tarmac 1m longer and wider than my van second.

Water, waste, EHU, outside space, grass, view and anything else is of no interest whatsoever if I’m just parking up for the night.

If they are going to be modelled on anything then the pub stop/Britstop model is closer to what’s needed.

CLs and sites - open all year? yeah right - try 'parking' on wet grass - all I want is somewhere to park for the night, empty the cassette, fill up with water......and if there's a pub with food nearby - bonus !.........and I don't mind paying!!

Motorhomes (mine) travel in the Winter as well............Caravans are parked up in Winter.........

We need different facilities!

Interesting. Two posts wanting only "parking for the night" but one wants water and waste facilities and the other doesn't.
If those who want aire/stopover facilities in the UK can't agree what they should include then how are potential providers to know what it is worth spending their money on?

A "pub stop/Britstop model" (with the exception that it would be legal) is perfectly possible under the current legislation. All that is needed is for the land owner to obtain an exemption certificate (or licence if more than 5 vans are to be accommodated).

 

[GJH]

That's actually a very fair question.

We're a small, over populated island with limited space. How many visitors can popular locations sensibly cope with?

That is one of the factors that local authorities have to take into account when considering allowing camping on their car parks.
If motorhomers want to be able to camp from (say) 6pm to 9am but visitors don't leave until 9pm and start arriving at 8am there is a conflict to be resolved.

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[GJH]

With the Edinburgh Fringe Festival promoted to presumably attract visitors it seems odd that some now wish to control the number of visitors , weird.

Events like that are a great argument for the THSs run by the C&CC.
Just a couple of weeks ago we were at one at the Drum Estate (20 minutes to half an hour by bus) run specifically to cater for visitors to the Fringe.
Several are run each year for Blackpool Illuminations.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

All that is needed is for the land owner to obtain an exemption certificate (or licence if more than 5 vans are to be accommodated

As you very well know that would completely ruin the concept of pub stops by turning them into CLs as well.

It would make it impossible for 99% of pubs to take part.

In this instance I don’t particularly care whether it reconciles nicely with the 1960 Act or anything else, the pub stop model in its current format with no alteration or interference is by far the best model for overnight stops. This can be evidenced by the places where overnighting is permitted in car parks - Canterbury, Chester etc. They are car parks, not CLs.

As soon as you use the CL model the minimum spacing nonsense comes into play which means there isn’t a car park operator anywhere in the country, be it LA or pub, that would be interested because of the amount of wasted space. That’s the way to kill the discussion about off site parking stone dead in one go.

 

[sdc77]

As a regular visitor to uttoxeter ..with and without the van I would never consider stopping at somewhere like The Maltings car park overnight. . But I would use it if I needed to during the day. If I lived there Id not want motorhomes overnighting there either. There's a site on the racecourse close to town and plenty of smaller sites and cls in the area.
In fact when I had an early appointment at Truma nr Burton once I drove up and kipped in the van on their industrial estate the night before.
My point being ... We use our van extensively and don't need aires .. This isn't France.
Parking is available ..just not plentiful. Overnight parking/camping is also available but not plentiful.
Reason being .. there is not the demand.

And for those wondering how the French, Germans and dutch etc cope. It's not a new thing. We don't have aires in the UK .. but mainly a good network of campsites of varying size and quality. It's always been that way and it's well known. We're different.

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[GJH]

As you very well know that would completely ruin the concept of pub stops by turning them into CLs as well.

It would make it impossible for 99% of pubs to take part.

In this instance I don’t particularly care whether it reconciles nicely with the 1960 Act or anything else, the pub stop model in its current format with no alteration or interference is by far the best model for overnight stops. This can be evidenced by the places where overnighting is permitted in car parks - Canterbury, Chester etc. They are car parks, not CLs.

As soon as you use the CL model the minimum spacing nonsense comes into play which means there isn’t a car park operator anywhere in the country, be it LA or pub, that would be interested because of the amount of wasted space. That’s the way to kill the discussion about off site parking stone dead in one go.

No, I don't very well know that. It might completely ruin the concept of it being OK for chancers (pub landlords or whoever) to ignore the law for their own profit but that is all.

In any case, your post defeats your own argument.
Camping in the car parks at Canterbury and Chester &c comes under the very same legislation as CLs. The only difference is that the councils concerned use the exemption in Para 11 of Schedule 1 rather than Para 5.
So, if the model scheme spacing provisions can legally be relaxed in those cases then they can legally be relaxed for particular types of location exempted under Para 5.

Nobody will get anywhere by saying that they should have a facility because they don't particularly care whether it reconciles nicely with legislation. Just imagine what a field day some would have if that principle were applied to all legislation. Such a statement is an open invitation to government, national and local, to refuse point blank to even consider the question.

 

[chaser]

As a regular visitor to uttoxeter ..with and without the van I would never consider stopping at somewhere like The Maltings car park overnight. . But I would use it if I needed to during the day. If I lived there Id not want motorhomes overnighting there either. There's a site on the racecourse close to town and plenty of smaller sites and cls in the area.
In fact when I had an early appointment at Truma nr Burton once I drove up and kipped in the van on their industrial estate the night before.
My point being ... We use our van extensively and don't need aires .. This isn't France.
Parking is available ..just not plentiful. Overnight parking/camping is also available but not plentiful.
Reason being .. there is not the demand.

And for those wondering how the French, Germans and dutch etc cope. It's not a new thing. We don't have aires in the UK .. but mainly a good network of campsites of varying size and quality. It's always been that way and it's well known. We're different.

actually i dont think anyone would bother about you on the maltings, and it certainly wouldnt bother any householders as i dont think there are any that could see you, and as a matter of fact its free after 3.o clock.
i get argueing on here about this but in fact there are loads of places you can park around uttoxeter without any bother, we live in a different world here, its beginning to change though , and that is why its such a shock when visiting other places that have compleatly different outlook on it.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

No, I don't very well know that. It might completely ruin the concept of it being OK for chancers (pub landlords or whoever) to ignore the law for their own profit but that is all.

In any case, your post defeats your own argument.
Camping in the car parks at Canterbury and Chester &c comes under the very same legislation as CLs. The only difference is that the councils concerned use the exemption in Para 11 of Schedule 1 rather than Para 5.
So, if the model scheme spacing provisions can legally be relaxed in those cases then they can legally be relaxed for particular types of location exempted under Para 5.

Nobody will get anywhere by saying that they should have a facility because they don't particularly care whether it reconciles nicely with legislation. Just imagine what a field day some would have if that principle were applied to all legislation. Such a statement is an open invitation to government, national and local, to refuse point blank to even consider the question.

Can they though? That's a vital question, really the only one that matters if you want the Act to be used to licence off site parking.

Do LAs have the power to selectively apply the Act in relation to Para 11? If so what part of the Act gives them this power and why can it not be applied to other parts, Para 5 for example?

If you read the response from the Caravan Company dweeb earlier in this thread their position seems to be that the model spacing should apply and LAs are ignoring it. If they are right the conclusion has to be that all LAs that allow overnighting in car parks are acting illegally and the whole debate for off site parking in the UK is over. I know that's always going to be the basis of their argument because it would effectively make all off site camping illegal for all practical purposes so we would all be forced into using campsites. That would suit their business down to the ground.

If it's a grey area that's never been defined or tested then that's how it will stay because to change it would require a significant rewriting of the Act which isn't going to happen any time soon.

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[chaser]

Can they though? That's a vital question, really the only one that matters if you want the Act to be used to licence off site parking.

Do LAs have the power to selectively apply the Act in relation to Para 11? If so what part of the Act gives them this power and why can it not be applied to other parts, Para 5 for example?

If you read the response from the Caravan Company dweeb earlier in this thread their position seems to be that the model spacing should apply and LAs are ignoring it. If they are right the conclusion has to be that all LAs that allow overnighting in car parks are acting illegally and the whole debate for off site parking in the UK is over. I know that's always going to be the basis of their argument because it would effectively make all off site camping illegal for all practical purposes so we would all be forced into using campsites. That would suit their business down to the ground.

If it's a grey area that's never been defined or tested then that's how it will stay because to change it would require a significant rewriting of the Act which isn't going to happen any time soon.

where have you been in all these discussions at last someone who can talk to @GJH in his own language

 

[Deleted member 29692]

where have you been in all these discussions at last someone who can talk to @GJH in his own language

I've always been in the discussions. I happen to agree with Graham on most things.

 

[GJH]

Can they though? That's a vital question, really the only one that matters if you want the Act to be used to licence off site parking.

Do LAs have the power to selectively apply the Act in relation to Para 11? If so what part of the Act gives them this power and why can it not be applied to other parts, Para 5 for example?

If you read the response from the Caravan Company dweeb earlier in this thread their position seems to be that the model spacing should apply and LAs are ignoring it. If they are right the conclusion has to be that all LAs that allow overnighting in car parks are acting illegally and the whole debate for off site parking in the UK is over. I know that's always going to be the basis of their argument because it would effectively make all off site camping illegal for all practical purposes so we would all be forced into using campsites. That would suit their business down to the ground.

If it's a grey area that's never been defined or tested then that's how it will stay because to change it would require a significant rewriting of the Act which isn't going to happen any time soon.

The power of local authorities to attach conditions to site licences is provided by S5 of the Act. The overriding consideration is safety but the Act allows judgement to be made depending on the particular circumstances.

All the CAMC response does is assume that similar spacing conditions would be applied as to CLs. It doesn't say that they have actually asked.
If an authority which uses the Para 11 exemption to allow camping in its car parks were to attach different conditions to a CL set up in a similar way then it would face action on the grounds of partiality (the same sort of grounds which stopped Scarborough Borough from allowing camping in its car parks).

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