Pet Passport question (1 Viewer)

[Potty]

You can’t really blame the government. What category we will be out in is out of their hands, it is down to the EU. The latest info I have seen from them is that we will become a listed country which means the titre test won’t be needed. I will try to fund the relevant document.

As for the cost of the test, there are only 2 labs in the U.K. who can do it. Two years ago when we had ours done the lab charge was £55 + VAT. This will give you some idea of what your vet should charge. An Animal Health Certificate will also be needed, for which the vet will also charge. Expensive, yes, but not too bad when compared to kennel fees!

If you are worried about the test coming back negative, get another vaccination done first. Quite a few dogs do fail.

I have found the EU document but can’t copy the link. It is dated 1st December and gives the rules if we are a listed country, which means the titre test is not required but it does also say that the decision re being a listed country is not definite! Maybe things will become clearer after tomorrow.

 

[Oscar]

We had the Titre test and subsequent lab test done in October, the cost was £135. We already had a Titre test that was carried out in 2009 when Oscar first got his pet passport, unfortunately there was only 23 days between his rabies vaccination and the blood test, and current legislation states that it has to be a minimum of 30 days between innoculation and titre test, so we decided to go through the procedure again just in case.

 

[joemocks79]

You can’t really blame the government. What category we will be out in is out of their hands, it is down to the EU. The latest info I have seen from them is that we will become a listed country which means the titre test won’t be needed. I will try to fund the relevant document.

As for the cost of the test, there are only 2 labs in the U.K. who can do it. Two years ago when we had ours done the lab charge was £55 + VAT. This will give you some idea of what your vet should charge. An Animal Health Certificate will also be needed, for which the vet will also charge. Expensive, yes, but not too bad when compared to kennel fees!

If you are worried about the test coming back negative, get another vaccination done first. Quite a few dogs do fail.

Well I agree that the EU are entirely responsible for setting the requirements that apply to animals entering their borders but there are two parties that need to reach an agreement on our future relationship and it has been said to us countless times by this government, its ministers both former and current that we'd be getting a deal with the EU, that no deal was off the table, it would be a great deal, that the EU needed us and presumably our tourism and pets much more than we needed them and that only last year we already had an 'oven ready deal' ready to go. Many people voted for them on the basis that they would indeed get Brexit done.
I mistakenly took that as some comfort that they'd be perfectly able to implement a deal that would include maintaining some form of recognition to the UK's standards of animal control and welfare that meant that our family pets weren't treated the same as strays being brought in from somewhere like Syria.
I guess I was setting my sights too high on this government and I shouldn't judge them unfairly on the abilities they themselves have repeatedly professed of having. Brexit was your idea, you said you had a deal a year ago and despite not managing to put that deal into the oven, you then had every opportunity to request an extension to the transition period when we were in the midst of the worst global pandemic in living memory. Shame on me for holding you to some rudimental levels of competence. Lets go with that.

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[Landy Andy]

The cost of the titre test was £165 for our dog. And do you need to rabies vaccine for travel in Europe or to return in to the Uk. I think it’s to return into the uk, so at which point it’s three months after test till you can return to uk, not travel into Europe.

 

[joemocks79]

I have found the EU document but can’t copy the link. It is dated 1st December and gives the rules if we are a listed country, which means the titre test is not required but it does also say that the decision re being a listed country is not definite! Maybe things will become clearer after tomorrow.

Thanks for checking, we do seem to be entirely at the mercy of others on this. I do wish we had some people in charge who weren't so infuriatingly useless, constantly lying and then telling us to get prepared for a no deal when we're about 3 weeks away from that date! That just strikes me of a complete abdication of their responsibilities to negotiate the arrangements months if not years in advance and then tell us to prepare for what those arrangements are. That's how every other organisation plans and prepares for major change, you can't expect businesses and people to plan for 2 or more polar possibilities right until the very end, its ridiculous. We have a scenario just on something as trivial as pet entry where absolutely nothing could change, or we have to start some long-winded expensive process at least 4 months in advance! Its just bloody bad luck that the borders are all shut at the moment or we'd have people having to scrap travel plans on the day or leave animals at the border! We've had 4 years of the same party in charge, they've mucked around and argued with themselves about what the hell Brexit meant, one side won and then told us all they had a deal ready to go, called an election to give it a public mandate and then immediately spent the past year doing everything they could to rip their own deal up, argue with the EU over points they obviously and had repeatedly said could never be changed because Ireland has a porous border and the UK even made the Good Friday Agreement to ensure that was the case to stop the decades of violence and instead push us over the edge with nothing in place at the last minute and throw Ireland into potential violence and border checks. It just beggars belief what the heck they are thinking of.
Rant over, and in the spirit of balance this is all what everyone expected and voted for in the numerous votes we've had and we can't blame the government for doing this to us. Its all someone else's fault for changing their minds, I just can't possibly identify who that other party is that has done that but you know its their fault of course.

 

[zulurita]

We just returned from the vet who has just adminstered the Rabies boosters. We have five years' vaccine history on the passports. We were booked on the ferry for 31 March, and it appears that given the new 'rules' if we wanted to be on that ferry then we should have seen him ten days ago...

I thought that was for people starting afresh for new travel requirements for taking pets abroad.
Our 2 dogs have had their pp for many years now. All vaccinations up to date incliuding Rabies. Only extra we have done is the titre blood test in case needed. As far as we know the AHC (animal health cert) is the only thing required if we become listed 2 country and can only be done 10 days before we leave UK..

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[John Barrett]

I thought that was for people starting afresh for new travel requirements for taking pets abroad.
Our 2 dogs have had their pp for many years now. All vaccinations up to date incliuding Rabies. Only extra we have done is the titre blood test in case needed. As far as we know the AHC (animal health cert) is the only thing required if we become listed 2 country and can only be done 10 days before we leave UK..

It appears that our Vet didn't do a blood test when we obtained their passports five years ago, but given the 'rules' now evident then you are correct: the AHC will suffice now and we don't have to wait.

 

[gus-lopez]

Excellent news! The Pet Passport is dead, and vets will now issue certificates valid for four months. They download them for free, and can only charge you for their time...

Under Part 2 listed status, EU pet passports issued by Official Veterinarians (OVs) in GB will no longer be valid to travel to Europe. Instead, a pet travelling from GB to the EU will need an AHC. You will need to issue AHCs, instead of EU pet passports, to owners travelling with their pet animal to the EU from 1 January 2021.

I found this on Gov.uk. It appears that the blood test will not be required. Speaking with our vet today shows that he hadn't read the guidance shown above!

Part 2 listed country​

If the UK becomes a Part 2 listed country then on top of the above you will need to visit an official vet no more than 10 days before you travel to get an animal health certificate (AHC) confirming that your pet is microchipped and vaccinated against rabies.
You will need to get a new AHC each time you travel with your pet.

Unlisted country​

If the UK ends up being an unlisted country then, in addition to the requirements above, you will need to have a blood sample taken from your pet at least 30 days after its last rabies vaccination, which will then be sent to an EU-approved laboratory.
You will have to wait at least three months from the date the successful blood sample was taken before you can travel.
The blood test results will go on your pet's AHC.

You have to work on the assumption the UK will be unlisted & get a titre test .That way you are covered.

Good news that the titre test is not required for the EU. No doubt the vets will charge a lot for the AHC though.

Only if agreed& I can't see them worrying about pets when the rest is all up on the air.

that if you encounter a DEFRA official at check-in, they can be very pedantic.

& pray where would I find one of them ? The check in clerk for me & the van does my dogs paperwork & I scan his chip. Rarely do they ever see my dog to even know that I actually have one?

I don't like the sound of that. I am now a resident of Spain. I have three dogs, one with a British passport and two with Spanish passports. My dogs travel with me at all times.
Does needing an AHC mean that if I were to visit UK it could possibly cost me €300 to be allowed to return to Spain with my dogs? Will that also possibly be on top of them each needing tbe titre blood test.
If so, it could permanently be "farewell green and pleasant land".

Get the dog with the british passport changed to a spanish one.
There is no requirement whatsoever for a european dog with an EU pet passport to have an "animal Health certificate" check to return to the EU. Their passport is sufficient. I asked the question of DEFRA a long while back & have it on a written email.

Maybe things will become clearer after tomorrow.

What's happening then ?

that the EU needed us and presumably our tourism and pets much more than we needed them

Another dream

 

[John Barrett]

You have to work on the assumption the UK will be unlisted & get a titre test .That way you are covered.

Only if agreed& I can't see them worrying about pets when the rest is all up on the air.

& pray where would I find one of them ? The check in clerk for me & the van does my dogs paperwork & I scan his chip. Rarely do they ever see my dog to even know that I actually have one?

Get the dog with the british passport changed to a spanish one.
There is no requirement whatsoever for a european dog with an EU pet passport to have an "animal Health certificate" check to return to the EU. Their passport is sufficient. I asked the question of DEFRA a long while back & have it on a written email.


What's happening then ?

Another dream

Come on Gus, keep up! The earlier link showed that a blood test is not required by the EU: it's official!

From 1 January 2021 Great Britain (GB) will become a third country with respect to the EU Pet Travel Scheme. On 3 December 2020 the Standing Committee on Plants, Animals, Food and Feed (PAFF) of the EU voted in favour of giving Great Britain and the Crown Dependencies Part 2 listed status for the purposes of non-commercial pet travel after the Transition Period. This listed status will be formally adopted by the EU in due course. As a consequence, the requirements for travel between GB and the EU will change. We intend to publish detailed guidance on what this will mean for travellers on GOV.UK, but we felt it was important to alert you to changes relating to AHCs ahead of time. Animal Health Certificates (AHC) Under Part 2 listed status, EU pet passports issued by Official Veterinarians (OVs) in GB will no longer be valid to travel to Europe. Instead, a pet travelling from GB to the EU will need an AHC. You will need to issue AHCs, instead of EU pet passports, to owners travelling with their pet animal to the EU from 1 January 2021. Please note, this would affect any travellers with pets arriving in an EU Member State after 23:00 GMT on the 31 December 2020.

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[Minxy]

We had the Titre test and subsequent lab test done in October, the cost was £135. We already had a Titre test that was carried out in 2009 when Oscar first got his pet passport, unfortunately there was only 23 days between his rabies vaccination and the blood test, and current legislation states that it has to be a minimum of 30 days between innoculation and titre test, so we decided to go through the procedure again just in case.

That's interesting, our Lily had her rabies jab on 5th November 2008 and her blood test sample taken on 19th November 2008, she passed with an antibody level above the minimum of 0.5 so as she's been proven to have the required level in her system, despite it being done less than 30 days later as per the current regs.

I wondered why there is the 30 day requirement now and it appears to be simply to give a longer period of time for the levels to be at a high enough rate to pass the test:

The rabies titre test is generally performed 30 days after the administration of the rabies vaccine. Sometimes the test is administered earlier, but 30 days is the recommended waiting period for the antibodies to form. ​

​

The rabies titre test explained (petraveller.com.au)

 

[Midnightflyer]

Excellent news! The Pet Passport is dead, and vets will now issue certificates valid for four months. They download them for free, and can only charge you for their time...

Under Part 2 listed status, EU pet passports issued by Official Veterinarians (OVs) in GB will no longer be valid to travel to Europe. Instead, a pet travelling from GB to the EU will need an AHC. You will need to issue AHCs, instead of EU pet passports, to owners travelling with their pet animal to the EU from 1 January 2021.

I found this on Gov.uk. It appears that the blood test will not be required. Speaking with our vet today shows that he hadn't read the guidance shown above!

Part 2 listed country​

If the UK becomes a Part 2 listed country then on top of the above you will need to visit an official vet no more than 10 days before you travel to get an animal health certificate (AHC) confirming that your pet is microchipped and vaccinated against rabies.
You will need to get a new AHC each time you travel with your pet.

Unlisted country​

If the UK ends up being an unlisted country then, in addition to the requirements above, you will need to have a blood sample taken from your pet at least 30 days after its last rabies vaccination, which will then be sent to an EU-approved laboratory.
You will have to wait at least three months from the date the successful blood sample was taken before you can travel.
The blood test results will go on your pet's AHC.

John, has it correct simply if we become Unlisted the 4 months from when the blood sample was taken is the earliest you can travel into Europe with your pet, provided the test is acceptable. I understand from a British vet that now lives and practises in France that the authorities are gearing up for this, and stringent checking at the port of entry. So folks get your pet sorted well in advance as Brittany Ferries state that if they have to turn anybody away because their pets do not meet the requirement then they will NOT be refunding their ticket.
You have been warned!! and pray that we become a Part 1 or 2 Listed Country.

 

[MGSMerc.]

The APHA Briefing note 39/20 issued to Official Veterinarians on 10th December clearly states that the UK will become a third country with respect to the Pet Travel Scheme, BUT the EU PAFF voted in favour of the GB for non commercial pet travel will be Part 2 listed status. The link is #8 in this thread.
Only the AHC is required to visit Europe and this does not require the titre blood test so no three month wait.
The UK pet passport may be needed for proof of inoculations against rabies and fitness to travel and wormer to return to GB unless they are on the AHC before leaving GB.

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[Minxy]

Just to recap what I believe the situation is/will be ... unless it changes!

Until 23:00 on 31st December 2020:

Leaving the UK to go into the EU​

Nothing required​

Returning to the UK​

Pet Passport - required​

Vet check & worming - must have a vet-check prior to entering the UK along with worming tablet/injection​

Rabies vac - compulsory, no requirement for a titre test.​

​

From 1st January 2021 EU time (or 23:00 GMT on 31st 2020):

Leaving the UK to go into the EU​

Animal Health Certificate (AHC) - provided by a UK vet 10 days prior to travel (or arrival in the EU country? - need to check)​

​

Returning to the UK​

Pet Passport - required unless travelled out of the UK from 1st January 2021 onwards then an AHC may replace it​

Vet check & worming - must have a vet-check prior to entering the UK along with worming tablet/injection​

Rabies vac - compulsory, may be a requirement for a titre test.​

​

​

 

[John Barrett]

Just to recap what I believe the situation is/will be ... unless it changes!

SNIP

From 1st January 2021 EU time (or 23:00 GMT on 31st 2020):

Leaving the UK to go into the EU​

Animal Health Certificate - provided by a UK vet 10 days prior to travel (or arrival in the EU country? - need to check)​

​

Returning to the UK​

Pet Passport - required​

Vet check & worming - must have a vet-check prior to entering the UK along with worming tablet/injection​

Rabies vac - compulsory, may be a requirement for a titre test.​

​

​

From the official directive. Self explanatory I hope, i.e. no check needed on your return to the UK.
4. An AHC is valid for entry to the EU for up to ten days from its date of issue, and for up to four months for onward travel within the EU and/or for re-entry to GB.

OV Instructions

 

[MGSMerc.]

AHC is for entry into the EU and for re-entry to GB. Not clear yet where the requirement by the UK for wormer for pets returning from Europe is to be shown or the fit to travel will be necessary from a EU vet.

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[Minxy]

John, has it correct simply if we become Unlisted the 4 months from when the blood sample was taken is the earliest you can travel into Europe with your pet, provided the test is acceptable. I understand from a British vet that now lives and practises in France that the authorities are gearing up for this, and stringent checking at the port of entry. So folks get your pet sorted well in advance as Brittany Ferries state that if they have to turn anybody away because their pets do not meet the requirement then they will NOT be refunding their ticket.
You have been warned!! and pray that we become a Part 1 or 2 Listed Country.

From the official directive. Self explanatory I hope, i.e. no check needed on your return to the UK.
4. An AHC is valid for entry to the EU for up to ten days from its date of issue, and for up to four months for onward travel within the EU and/or for re-entry to GB.

OV Instructions

That document you've shown is for travelling out of the UK to go to the EU, it just says that the AHC will still be valid for use when returning to the UK but doesn't include all the UK stuff needed to bring your pets back, it would be great if it meant we didn't still have to do the 'abroad' vet check before returning but somehow I doubt it does so could be a double whammy.

If the UK is an unlisted country things will change for us to go elsewhere but our requirements for returning with our pets from the EU shouldn't change from what I can tell at present:

Bringing your pet dog, cat or ferret to the UK: Where you're travelling from - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[Thedriver]

John, has it correct simply if we become Unlisted the 4 months from when the blood sample was taken is the earliest you can travel into Europe with your pet, provided the test is acceptable. I understand from a British vet that now lives and practises in France that the authorities are gearing up for this, and stringent checking at the port of entry. So folks get your pet sorted well in advance as Brittany Ferries state that if they have to turn anybody away because their pets do not meet the requirement then they will NOT be refunding their ticket.
You have been warned!! and pray that we become a Part 1 or 2 Listed Country.

I spoke to DEFRA a month or so ago and they told me they had applied for part 1 listed and agreed with me that that is the one they wanted. If we got that we would be issued with a British pet passport and carry on like before, although the way this lot of clowns are handling this I doubt if the EU will be so generous!!. Someone said yesterday the photo of them in Brussels they looked like they had spent the night in a skip!!
I have a puppy at mo having her Rabies jab next week and they vet said they don't have a PP to give me at the mo, so it's any ones guess when I will be visiting the EU, not been over there since June 2019 cos of DVLA doctors having my licence and this virus, Well p****d off!! Bruce.

 

[Minxy]

John, has it correct simply if we become Unlisted the 4 months from when the blood sample was taken is the earliest you can travel into Europe with your pet, provided the test is acceptable. I understand from a British vet that now lives and practises in France that the authorities are gearing up for this, and stringent checking at the port of entry. So folks get your pet sorted well in advance as Brittany Ferries state that if they have to turn anybody away because their pets do not meet the requirement then they will NOT be refunding their ticket.
You have been warned!! and pray that we become a Part 1 or 2 Listed Country.

No, the rabies vac, and possible blood test, are required by the UK, not the EU, there's no requirement for you to have the rabies vac for going into the EU at all.

This means that you could travel out of the UK on the day your dog was vaccinated but in order to return you would have to wait the mandatory period of time before re-entry.

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[John Barrett]

AHC is for entry into the EU and for re-entry to GB. Not clear yet where the requirement by the UK for wormer for pets returning from Europe is to be shown or the fit to travel will be necessary from a EU vet.

Surely the whole idea of the four months validity of the AHC is to give the pet owner a 'window' within which to travel, which includes the return trip to the UK? Or is that too simple...

 

[MGSMerc.]

Agree with you, maybe wormer will be used before leaving and shown on the AHC but up to 4 months before returning? Until we see the form that is only available to OV,s will we know. Still good news in these times, keep fingers crossed. A Trade deal as well.......?

 

[Oscar]

Pet travel to Europe from 1 January 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Point 3 from this document reads :-

Your pet must have a blood sample taken at least 30 days after its primary rabies vaccination (from a current series of vaccinations). Your vet may recommend a booster rabies vaccination before this test.

As per our earlier post, we decided to have the Titre test done "just in case"

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[John Barrett]

Pet travel to Europe from 1 January 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Point 3 from this document reads :-

Your pet must have a blood sample taken at least 30 days after its primary rabies vaccination (from a current series of vaccinations). Your vet may recommend a booster rabies vaccination before this test.

May I suggest that you look at the publication date?
Published 14 October 2020

And this:
If the UK does receive Part 1 or 2 listed status, some of these requirements will no longer apply and this guidance will be updated.

 

[Midnightflyer]

Agree with you, maybe wormer will be used before leaving and shown on the AHC but up to 4 months before returning? Until we see the form that is only available to OV,s will we know. Still good news in these times, keep fingers crossed. A Trade deal as well.......?

Yes I had viewed the earlier and was aware of the 'APHA Briefing Note 39/20' but are we to take that as gospel as it seems to contradict itself. I have just called my Vet friend in France and as far as he is concerned nothing has changed, so all we can do is wait for further solid announcement's.

 

[Markas]

I've just been looking into this given the current threats of no deal and us becoming an unlisted country. We're planning on taking our dogs into Europe 17th May so don't have much time at all to wait given the 3 month delay before travel and possibility of additional jabs.
They both had their rabies jabs back in January so I plan to pay to get blood samples taken on the 23rd December, sent to an EU lab for testing (god knows how much this will cost but I suspect £00s), then when the results come back either they fail and I need to get more boosters done and another test 30 days after the boosters, by the latest on the 17th Feb, or I just have to wait the 3 months and then apply for a certificate no more than 10 days before travelling on the 17th May.
All in all, its just a load of extra money, stress and time that I need to do now, at a fair pace, when the ferry isn't until the 17th May and for 2 healthy dogs travelling from as far as I'm aware, a pretty much rabies free country when they already have rabies jabs that are well in period and pet passports which is all the EU need today.
This one should be something that the govt couldn't really screw up after 4 years but well here we are days before the 1st January all either confused or having to rush around arranging and paying for things that we still don't know if they will be needed or not! Useless damn cretins, every last one of them!

I paid 85€ for titrage to the lab my French vets use.

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[John Barrett]

If this is the current AHC then it is 'orrible! Ten pages!

http://apha.defra.gov.uk//external-operations-admin/library/documents/exports/AHC21.pdf

 

[Potty]

I don't like the sound of that. I am now a resident of Spain. I have three dogs, one with a British passport and two with Spanish passports. My dogs travel with me at all times.
Does needing an AHC mean that if I were to visit UK it could possibly cost me €300 to be allowed to return to Spain with my dogs? Will that also possibly be on top of them each needing tbe titre blood test.
If so, it could permanently be "farewell green and pleasant land".

Come on Gus, keep up! The earlier link showed that a blood test is not required by the EU: it's official!

From 1 January 2021 Great Britain (GB) will become a third country with respect to the EU Pet Travel Scheme. On 3 December 2020 the Standing Committee on Plants, Animals, Food and Feed (PAFF) of the EU voted in favour of giving Great Britain and the Crown Dependencies Part 2 listed status for the purposes of non-commercial pet travel after the Transition Period. This listed status will be formally adopted by the EU in due course. As a consequence, the requirements for travel between GB and the EU will change. We intend to publish detailed guidance on what this will mean for travellers on GOV.UK, but we felt it was important to alert you to changes relating to AHCs ahead of time. Animal Health Certificates (AHC) Under Part 2 listed status, EU pet passports issued by Official Veterinarians (OVs) in GB will no longer be valid to travel to Europe. Instead, a pet travelling from GB to the EU will need an AHC. You will need to issue AHCs, instead of EU pet passports, to owners travelling with their pet animal to the EU from 1 January 2021. Please note, this would affect any travellers with pets arriving in an EU Member State after 23:00 GMT on the 31 December 2020.

Maybe the UK should reciprocate by not recognising EU issued pet passports and insisting on Animal Health Certificates. After all, the EU want a level playing field.

 

[gus-lopez]

If this is the current AHC then it is 'orrible! Ten pages!

http://apha.defra.gov.uk//external-operations-admin/library/documents/exports/AHC21.pdf

In my one & only use of an AHC when we moved here 18 years ago I hope that they have changed how it is supplied as otherwise if it is still the same then there will be more aggro.
It used to be that you had to specify the date of travel.
DEFRA would then supply the AHC to the veterinary practice, & remember not all vets are qualified to fill them in, 2 weeks prior to that date & not a moment earlier.
Additionally you also have to hope that the vets actually remember to ask for the AHC on your behalf , as you can't apply for it.
Then you have 10 days to enter the EU with it.

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[John Barrett]

In my one & only use of an AHC when we moved here 18 years ago I hope that they have changed how it is supplied as otherwise if it is still the same then there will be more aggro.
It used to be that you had to specify the date of travel.
DEFRA would then supply the AHC to the veterinary practice, & remember not all vets are qualified to fill them in, 2 weeks prior to that date & not a moment earlier.
Additionally you also have to hope that the vets actually remember to ask for the AHC on your behalf , as you can't apply for it.
Then you have 10 days to enter the EU with it.

Your vet can download a Country specific one for free, but rest assured we will be charged for it!

 

[Thedriver]

In my one & only use of an AHC when we moved here 18 years ago I hope that they have changed how it is supplied as otherwise if it is still the same then there will be more aggro.
It used to be that you had to specify the date of travel.
DEFRA would then supply the AHC to the veterinary practice, & remember not all vets are qualified to fill them in, 2 weeks prior to that date & not a moment earlier.
Additionally you also have to hope that the vets actually remember to ask for the AHC on your behalf , as you can't apply for it.
Then you have 10 days to enter the EU with it.

Gus, looks like the AHC is the same one as used for exporting more than 5 dogs and exporting by courier. On the sample shown, most of the irrelevant stuff for us has a line drawn across it so the vet will only have to complete the parts applicable to us for holiday use. Lets assume ( although I am a firm believer in not making assumptions ) he can download the simplified relevant form. Bruce

 

[Langtoftlad]

I will wait and see what actually transpires after Jan 1st.
Covid has interfered with travel plans worldwide - I can wait a couple of months to see what Whitehall & the EU Commissioners dictate...

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