Payload (1 Viewer)

[wotme]

I am trying to find out the payload for a Fiat Ducato Elnagh SEA 640R I realize this is something I should have found out before putting down a deposit on the vehicle, Having since read articles about MHs having ridiculously low payloads I asked the dealer and he says the only way to find out the mass in running order (MIRO) is to empty the vehicle and have it weighed. To do that would mean calculating and deducting the weight of the top box, bike rack, and wind out canopy etc. Apparently the gross weight axle weights and train weight are the only figures found on the plate, NOT THE MIRO WEIGHT.
If this is the case it obviously makes it impossible to work out the payload unless as the dealer says having it weighed empty or is there another way of finding this out?

 

[wotme]

Okay lets put it this way, it was an anxious moment when the guy at the weighbridge printed out the ticket, it was just me sitting in the van weighing in at 109k, a good half tank of fuel, not much fresh water 20lt or so, no grey water, fully loaded apart for the fridge being empty. The figures worked out to 175k wriggle room which is less than I was hoping but my wife only weighs 65k the dog 10K (fat git seeing as he's only a short ass Shi-Tzu).
So that means there's hardly enough kilos left for a weekends supply of booze.
As things are it will do for me and the missus however this van is rated as 4/5 berth which would certainly be a disappointment for a normal size couple with three kids all wanting to take bikes and a full awning etc

 

[Lenny HB]

Looks like if you have virtually everything you need in it should be just legal even with a full tank of water. Better than a lot of vans.
Can you upgrade if you need to?

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[Langtoftlad]

It's not all bad news then - you're still legal .
Perhaps review what you've loaded and see how much is "essential".

Not that you should rely on it but in the unlikely event of being checked you have up to 5% leeway before getting a fine [that's 175kg based on 3500kg]

Perhaps have a initial chat to SVTech about a paper exercise upgrade - if your licence allows.

 

[Minxy]

Perhaps your wife should exchange you for a more svelt model?

 

[wotme]

Can't say that I've ever been slender and elegant but the wife's happy because the bulk of my weight is where it counts

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[Podney]

Can't say that I've ever been slender and elegant but the wife's happy because the bulk of my weight is where it counts

So,that’ll be the brain then?!

 

[wotme]

Oh no it isn't, its what's in my back pocket, leather bound

 

[gus-lopez]

the exact dimensions and layout as mine but has a gross weight 100k more. --- WHY?

It is quite common on european models. 3500kgs, 3400kgs,3300kgs( favourite is this) 3200kgs, (close second) 3100kgs. No idea why ?but first thing you have to look at here is the plate to see whether it is a lighter plate weight.

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[138go]

Okay lets put it this way, it was an anxious moment when the guy at the weighbridge printed out the ticket, it was just me sitting in the van weighing in at 109k, a good half tank of fuel, not much fresh water 20lt or so, no grey water, fully loaded apart for the fridge being empty. The figures worked out to 175k wriggle room which is less than I was hoping but my wife only weighs 65k the dog 10K (fat git seeing as he's only a short ass Shi-Tzu).
So that means there's hardly enough kilos left for a weekends supply of booze.
As things are it will do for me and the missus however this van is rated as 4/5 berth which would certainly be a disappointment for a normal size couple with three kids all wanting to take bikes and a full awning etc

So what weight did you have on the back axle that’s the important bit. If it’s over 2000kg you may not be legal even if you are under weight. We have 80kg we cannot use above the front axle as we have knowhere to store anything at the front.

 

[wotme]

QFour Unfortunately I could not get the axels weighed at this particular site so to answer your question :- its something I need to find out
Gus, The mass vehicle weight of my van is 3400k and the 2yr earlier model that I saw was similar in every visual respect and had a MVW of 3500k So my question is does the earlier model have a 100k greater payload or does it have a greater MIRO which in effect could give it a similar payload
Lenny, Upgrading is something I shall be looking into if its going to increase my payload

 

[bfb]

I must agree to Spriddlers reply. I just can't wait to find an excuse to get out in mine. It's a 21 year old Hymer BM640 on a 2.9 Mercedes diesel. Driving it is the start of my holiday and very relaxing. The one thing I like the most is the view from the cab especially when a young lady draws level in a queue and she is wearing a mini skirt. It does stop me from going to sleep though. Hope the Ayatollah doesn't read this!

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[Drifter]

Do MH often get stopped and checked for weight? I’ve never even considered this before I joined here

 

[Minxy]

Do MH often get stopped and checked for weight? I’ve never even considered this before I joined here

It doesn't happen very often but that's not what overly concerns me, if I was in an accident and they could show that our PVC was overweight, it would give the insurance company a possible way to refuse to pay out.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Do MH often get stopped and checked for weight? I’ve never even considered this before I joined here

It would appear you're not alone - so many vans appear unfit for purpose.
For me, it's not about being 'caught' but about knowing what weight I am, and the mechanical limits of my vehicle.
Without knowing the weights, how can you know if you're exceeding the safety margins.

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[Puddleduck]

If you add the axle weights as shown on the weight plate together they probably will be more than the mazimum authorised mass in service. I might be wrong (often am) but if that is the case it should be a paper exercise to up=plate to the total of the two axle weights. You must be very careful not to exceed the individual axle weights though.

 

[gus-lopez]

So my question is does the earlier model have a 100k greater payload or does it have a greater MIRO which in effect could give it a similar payload

I would guess yes ,a greater payload,as they rarely have different brakes ,wheel cylinders, shocks ,springs, axles , once you have gone over the 3tonne weight it will all be rated at 3,5 tonnes but just plated lower. It is all very odd & there must be a financial reason the manufacturers specify all these odd weights but I've no idea what it is?

 

[wotme]

I've just posted the forms to SvTech enquiring about upgrading the MVW, I will let you know what they have to say in due course.
I don't know what action the police might take if they pull you over and find your MH overweight, depends what sort of day the copper is having I suppose. There was mention of a 5% leeway but I wouldn't count on it. What ever they throw at you it can't be as bad as causing a fatal incident because you were overloaded and lost control. Oh, and if your insurance company discovered your van was unroadworthy they would definitely not pay out.

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[Langtoftlad]

The 5% before issuing a penalty is official.
The limits of 3500kg is mostly artificial to allow MHs to be driven on car licences. Most are engineered to carry higher weights.
I agree about not overloading for safety but can't imagine a post accident weighing being successful by the time assorted fluids being spilt...

 

[Lenny HB]

The 5% before issuing a penalty is official.
The limits of 3500kg is mostly artificial to allow MHs to be driven on car licences. Most are engineered to carry higher weights.
I agree about not overloading for safety but can't imagine a post accident weighing being successful by the time assorted fluids being spilt...

It's only a guide line in the UK.
In Austria they will do you if only slightly over and do you for avoiding tolls as over 3.5t you need a Go box.

 

[nicholsong]

The 5% before issuing a penalty is official.
The limits of 3500kg is mostly artificial to allow MHs to be driven on car licences. Most are engineered to carry higher weights.
I agree about not overloading for safety but can't imagine a post accident weighing being successful by the time assorted fluids being spilt...

Agreed. Most are certified under construction and use for 3850-4000kg and it is a paper excercise to upgrade them.

Therefore the Insurers would be on a sticky wicket to try to deny a claim and driving a vehicle over 3500kg is a matter for the law.

Geoff

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[Minxy]

Therefore the Insurers would be on a sticky wicket to try to deny a claim

Wouldn't stop them trying it on though ...

 

[Minxy]

... can't imagine a post accident weighing being successful by the time assorted fluids being spilt...

Depends on the type of accident I suppose and if fluids have actually been spilt.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Depends on the type of accident I suppose and if fluids have actually been spilt.

One where insurers would go to the effort & expense of trying to accurately weigh a vehicle .

TBH, the law enforcers are unlikely to catch you for being a 100kg overweight (uk), they have worse offenders to catch...

It's more about knowing your weight to stay within the law & have a margin of safety.

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[Lenny HB]

Agreed. Most are certified under construction and use for 3850-4000kg and it is a paper excercise to upgrade them.

Therefore the Insurers would be on a sticky wicket to try to deny a claim and driving a vehicle over 3500kg is a matter for the law.

Geoff

Insurance policies always have a clause that states the vehicle must be road legal and your licence must be valid for the vehicle.

So if it's plated at 3500 and you are over the vehicle is illegal.
If you don't have a C1 and it's over 3500 you are driving it illegally.

 

[Pausim]

If you don't have a C1 and it's over 3500 you are driving it illegally.

Not sure I agree with this, I think your license relates to the plated weight of the vehicle not its actual weight. If you drive a vehicle with a plated weight of 3850kg you need a C1 license, even if it only weighs 3400kg when stopped. Conversely I believe that if your vehicle weighs in over the 3500kg plated weight the offence is one of overloading and probably not of being unlicensed. I would be interested to hear of any prosecutions or refused insurance pay outs on the licensing issue.

I have raised this issue with the DVLA and twice received ambiguous answers that appear to deliberately avoid clarifying the point. This makes me very suspicious that they would rather not admit that going over the C limit is only the lesser offence of driving an overweight vehicle.

 

[nicholsong]

Not sure I agree with this, I think your license relates to the plated weight of the vehicle not its actual weight. If you drive a vehicle with a plated weight of 3850kg you need a C1 license, even if it only weighs 3400kg when stopped. Conversely I believe that if your vehicle weighs in over the 3500kg plated weight the offence is one of overloading and probably not of being unlicensed. I would be interested to hear of any prosecutions or refused insurance pay outs on the licensing issue.

I have raised this issue with the DVLA and twice received ambiguous answers that appear to deliberately avoid clarifying the point. This makes me very suspicious that they would rather not admit that going over the C limit is only the lesser offence of driving an overweight vehicle.

You should have asked DVSA(ex-VOSA) as they are the body which does roadside weight checks.

Geoff

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[Pausim]

You should have asked DVSA(ex-VOSA) as they are the body which does roadside weight checks.

Geoff

I went to the DVLA as the issuers of the licenses. I got bored with ambiguous answers and suspect DVSA will probably be no different.

 

[Minxy]

I went to the DVLA as the issuers of the licenses. I got bored with ambiguous answers and suspect DVSA will probably be no different.

I found DVSA very helpful when I was talking to them a few years ago about uprating my previous camper, they actually seem to know what they're talking about!

 

[gus-lopez]

So if it's plated at 3500 and you are over the vehicle is illegal.
If you don't have a C1 and it's over 3500 you are driving it ille

No, You are just overweight . You have the correct licence for the vehicle at 3,5T but you are just overloaded.

I have raised this issue with the DVLA and twice received ambiguous answers that appear to deliberately avoid clarifying the point. This makes me very suspicious that they would rather not admit that going over the C limit is only the lesser offence of driving an overweight vehicle.

Things like that when I expect the ambiguous relpy from them I will ask exactly the same question of the EU.You get a definite reply from lawyers that state the facts exactly.
I once asked dvla some questions via email & it took 12 of them before the last reply came from someone who actually knew what they were talking about & was exactly what the EU reply had stated some time previously. At one point I asked the dvla to clarify 5 points on a reply & they answered 4 different questions ?

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[nicholsong]

No, You are just overweight . You have the correct licence for the vehicle at 3,5T but you are just overloaded.

Things like that when I expect the ambiguous relpy from them I will ask exactly the same question of the EU.You get a definite reply from lawyers that state the facts exactly.
I once asked dvla some questions via email & it took 12 of them before the last reply came from someone who actually knew what they were talking about & was exactly what the EU reply had stated some time previously. At one point I asked the dvla to clarify 5 points on a reply & they answered 4 different questions ?

DVLA do not have a Legal Department, would you believe, and refer legal questions to Dft as their sponsoring Government Department as an Agency.

Then Dft Legal Department refer one back to DVLA on licensing matters.

Conclusion Dft and its Agency DVLA are not fit for purpose.

DVSA, although also an Agency of Dft, are in a superior league, but they are largely staffed by trained technicians not clerks.

Geoff