Payload - Important or Not, do we need a law to ensure all vans sold MUST be weighed at time of sale? (2 Viewers)

[596]

Payload, is this important to people?

The reason I ask is that having undergone a recent search for a motorhome with the payload required I found firstly there is never the option when searching a manufacturers or dealers site for the payload required, I also found that the payloads shown in any advertisement were almost all incorrect, this could be due to extras added from manufacturers specifications by dealers, or dealers being plain economical with the truth.

As a lot of you will know it is so easy to become illegal with too much payload, but many people just work on figures given when it was sold that could be totally incorrect, is it about time that any van sold MUST be weighed. Surely it’s better to be safe than have your head in the sand, it just seems nobody takes payload and max weights seriously, examples being in another thread with vans sold with a 220kg payload, so easy to exceed that with a large partner and their food supplies for a weekend, never mind clothing, drinks and deck chairs!

I have had a nightmare finding the van that will suit my needs, and still don’t know if there were any other options around because it’s so difficult to find out and even the salesmen don’t know!

I am sure there are a few overloaded vans driving about, but I guess it’s not until you have an accident or get stopped and weighed that you end up in big trouble, I have no idea what the fines are but if you had a fatal accident it could be jail time in some countries!

I wonder how many forum members know their vans EXACT weight right now?

 

[Scotsblood]

Maybe we do need more manufacturer transparency but within very tight parameters they are generally just seeking to satisfy the purchasers desire for ever more features, functions and quite obviously their own desire for “unique selling points”.
We are at a point of maybe needing to see the weight implication of “options”, and us as purchasers making choices about what we carry.
The quest for ever lighter basic construction components will have an impact on durability and unless the ultra-light materials we see in aerospace drop in cost we may see a polarisation. Cheaper traditional material vehicles with lower specifications or high end materials, and far greater costs to get the higher equipment levels.

 

[Ivory55]

What ever the subject or item they will find ways to bend the laws in this country and motorhome weight is no different.

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[Podney]

Good idea.

 

[Ivory55]

Probably easier if you just accept dealers don’t tell the truth and then you won’t go far wrong.

 

[596]

I would like to see transparency with say a calculator type method where all accessories you select when buying new automatically reduce the payload so you know where you stand and the implications should be shown, e.g. you have 6 seats but now can only take 2 passengers at such and such a weight. I would also like to see in brochures ALL options that can be fitted to clearly have their weight displayed.

I have been motor homing for over 10yrs and having just been through buying my first brand new find the whole system archaic, not only that as mentioned above the quality of the new vans is suspect to say the least, my older 2004 Kontiki 645 that I will be selling next week is solid and beautifully finished, my new Bessacarr looks cheap and nasty, it has wiring exposed, the finish on parts of it is awful, don't worry I made it crystal clear that I want it all perfect before I accept delivery of it, but what the hell do the quality controllers at Swift do, or is it just a matter of turn out as many as you can, a 3 yr old would do a better job of the mastic I saw on a showroom van that looked like it had just been slapped on without a care in the world!

I must say having spent 2 days in Dusseldorf last week at the motorhome show it did set my standards high, BUT I could not afford what I needed and on my return have had to plump for the British built MFI type option, never mind I am sure it will do the job for a few years, but after that its anyones guess, seems the accountants have taken the knife to everything in order to make more money under the guise of making things lighter, funny how the payloads don't increase though!

I watched a video of the Swift Command system, it looked like it had been designed by a 6th form pupil, I understand it has been updated now and my new van has the later version, but having been exposed via iPhones, android or tablets to professional apps why in Britain does it look so childish, surely we have clever people over here who can make it look professional, no wonder it only gets 2 stars on the App review!

OK rant over, time for a coffee to perk myself up

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[Ivory55]

If you look at laws and construction and use etc, it’s full of sub section this and sub paragraph that and this is done so that they can bend the rules to suit their needs. So no in all honesty I don’t think you’re going to get anything transparent.

 

[Techno]

What we need is a change in regulation to make weight more practical

 

[596]

Probably easier if you just accept dealers don’t tell the truth and then you won’t go far wrong.

But could easily be to jail Time to kick ass in the industry and be more transparent, I'm pretty switched on and not afraid to ask questions, I wonder how many people are wondering around in 'ignorance is bliss' mode until something awful happens and they end up with porridge and water for 5yrs! Or worse still end up killing themselves when their brakes don't work!

I have been in the ignorant category and having seen the light feel that EVERYONE should be CLEARLY shown the consequences of not having the right van for their needs. A weighbridge costs around £10 to go on in Kent, that's not a lot to ensure you are safe!

I think I will ensure that my new van is weighed before I take delivery as its having a new gaslow system, tow bar, bike rack and other items fitted, I know I have plenty of payload but it soon gets used

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[596]

Obviously not serious here in the UK to be overloaded, fines are a lot less than fitting air suspension https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/news/penalties-overloaded-vans/

 

[Lenny HB]

I must say having spent 2 days in Dusseldorf last week at the motorhome show it did set my standards high, BUT I could not afford what I needed and on my return have had to plump for the British built MFI type option,

Why?
If you buy in Germany or Belgium and self import a decent German van will cost no more than a Swift. I speak from personal experience I have bought 3 new Hymers from Belgium.

 

[Emmit]

Without going too deep into my grey matter (bit thin anyway), how about a consumer law that states, (or words similar to; )
Any motor caravan or caravan sold by a VAT Registered seller has to be sold with a Weight Certificate issued within?????hrs, days etc. showing the unladen weight of Axle 1 Axle 2 and whole vehicle. No driver, passenger, no nothing. Just the van.

They (the dealer) could make it lighter by removing say a gas bottle but one could assume no nothing and go from there.

Don't shoot the messenger, As said, this post was compiled without really finessing it. I'm sure it could be improved.

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[596]

If you look at laws and construction and use etc, it’s full of sub section this and sub paragraph that and this is done so that they can bend the rules to suit their needs. So no in all honesty I don’t think you’re going to get anything transparent.

The dealers all seem to know the weight of accessories if you ask, BUT they are not made clear on the options list, its easy to get carried away having this and that added then when delivered realise you can't get the grandkids and their stuff in when its too late Thats IF you ever knew the real weight on delivery, THAT is where some unsuspecting people could end up on the wrong side of the law inadvertantly and end up being prosecuted, or having an awful accident!

 

[Lenny HB]

German manufacturers list the weight of all the options on the price list.

 

[Granjan]

I agree, when we went to the weigh bridge with our first motorhome a Burstner Elegance at 5000 kg with only half a tank of fuel, a little fresh water and no grey, we were already 20kg over and we didn’t have enough payload to carry even the Grandkids in addition to ourselves even though we appeared to have lots of space, seat belts and 5 beds. We had already used it for weekends with extra adult passengers a couple of times before we realised. We were definitely overloaded and our insurance would have been voided and we would have been responsible through ignorance.
The large garage space wasn’t much use either as the rear axel was over loaded with all our toys in the huge garage. Just because you have space doesn’t mean you have payload.
We ended up putting big things inside the van to move the weight around, not ideal.
We changed motorhomes and now have a massive 6700kg to go at so no worries.
I think that the dealers should have to help you get this right, they should have a duty of care to advise you.

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[596]

Why?
If you buy in Germany or Belgium and self import a decent German van will cost no more than a Swift. I speak from personal experience I have bought 3 new Hymers from Belgium.

I did consider that when in Dusseldorf last week bit don't have the experience of importing motorhomes and the new emissions laws are a minefield, the other issue was warranty, I must admit I went the chicken route and ended up at MFI, nobody to blame except myself, but I have no excitement about the new van at all which is a shame, maybe I will come to like it, its only going to be used to trundle to the South of France for 6 weeks very summer, nothing more nothing less, so nothing emotional about it at all. I'm retired but when my wife retires to join me then we will get our perfect van, I am 100% sure it will NOT be a British one from the quality I have seen!

 

[Gellyneck]

German manufacturers list the weight of all the options on the price list.

So did Autotrail (don't know if they still do).
And before any smarta*se comes along, yes, it was the dry weight!

 

[pandas]

But could easily be to jail Time to kick ass in the industry and be more transparent, I'm pretty switched on and not afraid to ask questions, I wonder how many people are wondering around in 'ignorance is bliss' mode until something awful happens and they end up with porridge and water for 5yrs! Or worse still end up killing themselves when their brakes don't work!

I have been in the ignorant category and having seen the light feel that EVERYONE should be CLEARLY shown the consequences of not having the right van for their needs. A weighbridge costs around £10 to go on in Kent, that's not a lot to ensure you are safe!

I think I will ensure that my new van is weighed before I take delivery as its having a new gaslow system, tow bar, bike rack and other items fitted, I know I have plenty of payload but it soon gets used

Yes weighbridge is a must and responsible but every additional item fitted either by the manufacturer or the dealer has a weight impact that can be calculated against the overall payload. For example Gas low that could be added to spreadsheet as part of the overall selling and contract process and where everything is totally transparent. You then just need to consider you own stuff, bikes, people, food, clothes etc. Therefore I do not think you should need to take it to the weighbridge prior a sale. Potential buyers should also be aware of what the weight of their personal stuff might be - a bit like taking a suitcase on a flight - I admit a bit more complicated.

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[596]

German manufacturers list the weight of all the options on the price list.

I had no issues with what I saw in Germany, its the UK I am talking about, sales people in the UK are as useful as a chocolate teapot, you end up doing everything yourself, I had to look on it as self preservation as they don't give a monkeys, well that was my view.

One rider to this statement is that I DID speak to and meet a couple of nice salesmen but they didn't have what I wanted, others you wonder how on earth they ever got the job. I learnt more about motorhomes in 2 weeks than some of those salesmen have learned in their entire life, unless of course they play dumb when you ask questions!

 

[Beltie]

German manufacturers list the weight of all the options on the price list.

 

[Beltie]

Sorry, fat finger trouble!
I intended to say that in addition to the glossy brochures, most manufacturers produce a technical spec. and options list which usually includes the weight of options.
The document is usually available at shows, but difficult to access on-line.

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[596]

Yes weighbridge is a must and responsible but every additional item fitted either by the manufacturer or the dealer has a weight impact that can be calculated against the overall payload. For example Gas low that could be added to spreadsheet as part of the overall selling and contract process and where everything is totally transparent. You then just need to consider you own stuff, bikes, people, food, clothes etc. Therefore I do not think you should need to take it to the weighbridge prior a sale. Potential buyers should also be aware of what the weight of their personal stuff might be - a bit like taking a suitcase on a flight - I admit a bit more complicated.

I was told a brand new van was 3,050kg from the factory and that I would have 800kg payload, that was before any options were added, we had the brand new van weighed with no person and little fuel in it and it was 3,220kg (when I questioned the difference they stated maybe they had used more glue on that one Oh Please! ), now considering that to get an extra 178kg on my new one it would cost £1,830 or thereabouts for air assist bags, THAT is a huge loss of payload, not only that but with the dive equipment I would be taking would have taken me overweight without knowing, THAT is a true example of what happened just last week.

DO NOT BELIEVE A THING A SALESMAN OR BROCHURE TELLS YOU ABOUT ITS WEIGHT, GET IT WEIGHED YOURSELF - OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES

Just trying to help others to save them from that I have been through, that's if you have any interest in being safe or complying with the law, chances are you will get away with it but if anything happens don't come back crying!

 

[tonyidle]

BUT I could not afford what I needed and on my return have had to plump for the British built MFI type option,

Or buy higher quality second-hand?

 

[596]

Or buy higher quality second-hand?

I really tried that, see what you can find with a rear lounge at 1,000kg payload that seats/sleeps at least 4 people, it's almost impossible to find.

If you find something nice I will cancel MFI and buy that budget £70k

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[tonyidle]

I really tried that, see what you can find with a rear lounge at 1,000kg payload that seats at least 4 people, it's almost impossible to find.

If you find something nice I will cancel MFI and buy that budget £70k

I've no experience looking for rear lounge and suspect it might be quite difficult .

 

[596]

If it was just the two of us and no grandkids we could have had the choice of our life, nice big double bed to play in and big garage, its the rear lounge that is the issue, did see a Burstner 744 with rear lounge but in MY opinion its a death trap, when the rear bed goes down electronically the side curtains block the rear windows, when the front bed goes down electronically two thirds of the height to a third off the floor it completely blocks the door, you would have to get past the ladder, duck under and reach up to open the door, can you image this in a smoke filled room with flames trying to get the grandkids out, no idea how on earth it ever passed any safety certificate but they reckon it did. The other issue was if grandkids went to bed first, you open the door to the van and are faced with a bed blocking it, unless you had just drunk 2 ltrs of Rose wine it would be hard to crawl under it to get to the back bed, just my personal views!

 

[Southdowners]

I feel sure that for £70K you’ll be able to find a good quality secondhand continental vehicle.

Have you considered not having a rear lounge? You could have a fixed bed in the rear and a drop down in the front.

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[Jim]

With reference to motorhomes the payload is governed purely by the European Directive on Masses and Dimensions. This requires a minimum user payload of 10L + 10N where L is the length of the motorhome in metres and N is the number of berths.

Minimum Payloads Required by Law

As far as the mass in running order is concerned this includes a full tank of fuel, 75kgs for the driver, an allowance for gas and any item supplied as standard (this would include a mains hook up lead, etc).

No water
When it comes to water, the Directive allows the manufacturer to specify if water should be carried when the vehicle is in motion and if so the amount of water they have is taken account of.

75kg per travel seat
The manufacturer also has to include in the payload a mass of 75kg per passenger seat (called the conventional load CL) so if a motorhome has 3 passenger seats in addition to the driver’s seat that 225 kgs is required.

Any NCC approved motorhome has had a model weighed to check it provides the minimum payload. An example of the minimum is shown below

As an example a 6 metre 4 Berth motorhome with 2 passenger seats would require a minimum payload of 60(L) + 40(N) + 225(CL) = 325kgs

 

[Mr Colpot]

It is simpler and safer to take the responsibility as a Purchaser to check the weight of the van before purchase. Even if a dealer produces a certificate it can be misleading. We bought a van plated at 3500kg and when I weighed it in holiday mode in the first week we were using it we were 60kg over that The dealer paid for the uprate and in mitigation the sales manager said he too had reservations and had therefore had it weighed prior to sale and produced a ticket with a fair amount of payload showing (cant remember how much now but 400kg is in my mind). We had it weighed at the same weighbridge they did (with the two of us, full fuel near full water some food and clothes) and were still 60kg over hence they uprated it. If it was empty of fuel/water/gas bottles and no person on board when they weighed it it may have been close to 3100kg but allowing 180 for me and the boss, 100 for water 80 for fuel it soon eats into the "spare payload"
Weighed the current Van and its 310kg under in holiday mode on a 4250kg Gross so am happy with the payload.

 

[Lenny HB]

I was told a brand new van was 3,050kg from the factory and that I would have 800kg payload, that was before any options were added, we had the brand new van weighed with no person and little fuel in it and it was 3,220kg

That is within the 5% tolerance, most manufacturers appear to build to the top of the tolerance, just another scam to make the van appear lighter as they can state a weight that is lower than it actually is.
The tolerance should be +0 -10% rather than =/-5% then at least the customer would know the max weight.
Interestingly Hymer appears to be one of the few manufacturers that can build to the specified weight, my first 2 were 30kg under, current van only 16 kg over so it can be done.

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