NYCC Motorhome Ban Consultation halted

John & Joan

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Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 1:40 PM
Subject: Response to Complaints re Motor Caravans TRO
Dear Mr Strangeway
I refer to the complaint made by you and the National Motorhome Organisation (NMO) on 9 July 2014 regarding your alleged failure by NYCC to produce a definitive statement of reasons to accompany the consultation for the proposed Traffic Regulation Order to prevent Motor Caravans from parking overnight. Your view was that this had prevented the NMO and yourself personally from submitting a response as part of the consultation process and thereby denying both yourself and the NMO a legal right to respond to the issues consulted upon.
Having reviewed the consultation process to date, the County Council have taken the decision to re-consult on the proposed Order, which will involve taking the following steps:-
  • Carrying out an Equality Impact Assessment (EIA), which will detail the purpose of the consultation and how the Council’s Public Sector Equality Duty under the Equality Act 2010 will be discharged; The EIA will address the proposed mitigation against any potential impacts considered.
  • Providing further clarification surrounding the proposals, their purpose, and possible impacts of the proposals (via a Statement of Reasons).
  • Advertising the proposed Order in the “Motorcaravan Motorhome Monthly”.
The County Council will notify you when the consultation commences. I hope that this will serve to address both of the issues you raise and also update you on the current position with regard to the proposed Order.
The current temporary restrictions will remain in force, pending the determination of the proposed Permanent Order.
Yours sincerely
Richard Pennell
Legal Officer – Environment
 

GJH

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Thank you John.

Raises questions though. What is "the National Motorhome Organisation (NMO)"? How many members does it have? Does it have a constitution? Is it actually representative of the approx 174,000 motorhome owners in the UK or just somebody puffing themselves up to try to look important?
 
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Regardless of the bona fides of the NMO, it has to be said that there are very few instances where Local Authorities have been put into a position where they have to backtrack on their procedures to the point that they start all over again AND publish their proposed order in MMM.
Well done, I say.
 

GJH

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Re-consulting isn't all that common but this is by no means the first time it has happened. It is the norm to publish in a relevant newspaper/magazine.
 

pappajohn

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Thank you John.

Raises questions though. What is "the National Motorhome Organisation (NMO)"? How many members does it have? Does it have a constitution? Is it actually representative of the approx 174,000 motorhome owners in the UK or just somebody puffing themselves up to try to look important?
The 'National Motorhome Organisation' is the creation of Andy Oddball himself and was brought into existance on 14th april 2014.
Probably nothing more than a chariot to air his personal views with a 'club' to back it up.

It has no official or documented membership and probably no official clout other than to contain a DONATE link in the website.

Membership as such is granted free of charge and the only stipulation is you need to agree with the knobheads views then you can call yourself a member.

I will never agree with his 'I'm right, your all wrong' attitude
 
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Jim

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The 'National Motorhome Organisation' is the creation of Andy Oddball himself and was brought into existance on 14th april 2014.
Probably nothing more than a chariot to air his personal views with a 'club' to back it up.

It has no official or documented membership and probably no official clout other than to contain a DONATE link in the website.

Membership as such is granted free of charge and the only stipulation is you need to agree with the knobheads views then you can call yourself a member.

I will never agree with his 'I'm right, your all wrong' attitude
But apart from that John, you like the bloke ::bigsmile:
 
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Tootles

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I am not going to comment......:rofl::rofl:
 

Tootles

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Go on, you know you want to.

Thanks for the explanation phase3begins and John. I thought it might be something like that :)
I REALLY WANTED to.....But, it's cold outside *FUN*:cry:
 

voyager 1

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I Cant understand wether this guy is as papa john an oddball he seems to have made the local council to re think and that cant be a bad thing i am against the banning of motorhome parking over night if you ban one vehicle you should ban all types of vehicle
 

GJH

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I don't think he has made them "re-think". As I said on the duplicate thread, NYCC seem to be getting sick of his constant mis-representation and confrontational attitude so they are going out of their way to ensure that there will be no grounds for challenging the final outcome of the review.
 

voyager 1

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sorry papajohn i am not refering you as an oddball i miss typed in my previos post i meant to say as papajohn said an oddball please accept my apoligy`s
 

pappajohn

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sorry papajohn i am not refering you as an oddball i miss typed in my previos post i meant to say as papajohn said an oddball please accept my apoligy`s
You upset me now....nobody ever called me an oddball before....... :crying:

I knew what you meant, no offence taken and no apology needed. ::bigsmile:
 

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Maybe just maybe this guy might get somewhere, only time will tell
What I don't really get is why as fellow M/Hs nearly everyone so far seems to be dead against him when in fact he is fighting our corner by making councils give M/H the same rights as all other means of transport which use public car parks (the main word being public paid for with mine and your taxes) even if his action are a little unorthodox does it matter if he gets results and councils listen to our concerns
Just to be clear I don't use car parks I always stay on CL/ CC sites so not really bothered either way but there are a few funsters who do use these facilities and respect the rules when doing so why should they be penalised
 
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I`m not a carpark overnighter normally, but what gets me is the barriers everywhere you go and, the jobsworth attendants who seem to go out of their way to make you unwelcome
 

GJH

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Maybe just maybe this guy might get somewhere, only time will tell
What I don't really get is why as fellow M/Hs nearly everyone so far seems to be dead against him when in fact he is fighting our corner by making councils give M/H the same rights as all other means of transport which use public car parks (the main word being public paid for with mine and your taxes) even if his action are a little unorthodox does it matter if he gets results and councils listen to our concerns
Just to be clear I don't use car parks I always stay on CL/ CC sites so not really bothered either way but there are a few funsters who do use these facilities and respect the rules when doing so why should they be penalised
Partly because he is not a fellow motorhome owner. He doesn't own a motorhome. Also because he publishes mis-representative and misleading information and his confrontational methods are destructive rather than constructive.
 

GJH

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I`m not a carpark overnighter normally, but what gets me is the barriers everywhere you go and, the jobsworth attendants who seem to go out of their way to make you unwelcome
There are all sorts of good reasons for height barriers, few of them anything to do with motorhomes. As for the activities of parking attendants, you must go to the wrong places :). I've yet to meet one who made me feel unwelcome but I've met plenty who have been helpful :)
 
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John & Joan

John & Joan

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Partly because he is not a fellow motorhome owner. He doesn't own a motorhome. Also because he publishes mis-representative and misleading information and his confrontational methods are destructive rather than constructive.
Hi Graham.
In this day and age any car with reclining seats can be a vehicle equipped for sleeping. This is the jargon now being trotted out by council to ban motorhomes even those that fit under a 2m barrier and fit a standard bay from using council car parks, Not just overnight but also during the day.

Cornwall used it. In the borough of Tameside large vehicles such as motor homes and caravans are not permitted to park in council car park at any time.

We have just intervened in Aberdeen where the council were trying to push a by-law through that would have made it a CRIMINAL OFFENCE to drive in a motorhome or campervan to or through parts of the city between 6pm and 6am. Again they used the wording any vehicle equipped for sleeping. The original draft submitted to the Scottish Government was to ban the setting up of caravans and tents between 10pm and 6am. However the final version included motorhomes and campervans, the clause about driving was added and times altered. Although I applied for information about this in April, June and 2nd July I only received confirmation of the intent to get this by-law approved 2 days before the closure of representation on 24th July to the Scottish Government. It took a further 3 email to get a copy of the wording.

York City Council use the same wording for their car parks. Quote:
"The City of York Council do have a policy not to allow any vehicles that are designed to have a sleeping capacity in our city centre car parks. The majority of our car parks are located close to residential areas and in the past we have received complaints of excessive noise, users sleeping overnight and waste left in the car parks.
The decision was therefore taken to not allow all variants of Motorhomes in the city centre car parks, and although I understand certain models may fit within a standard car parking bay, in the majority of cases this policy also fits with the Council’s strategy to discourage larger vehicles and none essential journeys into the city centre." End Quote

We submitted a formal reply to the NYCC consultation but this appears to have been topped by Andy's complaint.

I know you are aware of these issues but other may not.

John. The Motorhome Tourism Organisation (including The Motorhome Association whose members worked to get the Aires in Ireland))
 
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GJH

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Thank you John, as always.

I should expect that whether or not a car could be classed as "equipped for sleeping" would depend on the definition in the legal order. Cornwall have used a wide definition in order to combat a problem they have identified over the years. As they say "Overnight sleeping has always been banned in Council car parks and following complaints from residents and town and parish councils, we have introduced a new overnight parking ban for motorhomes in 17 Council car parks identified as having the biggest issues." The extra measure has come about because some people think that legislation does not apply to them and, instead of trying persuasion to obtain changes, they simply do as they please. Cornwall Council also point out that "Motorhomes can continue to use all Council car parks (where motorhome parking is a permitted vehicle class), during the day, but cannot park in the 17 car parks listed above between the hours of 11.30pm and 8am. Please note, overnight sleeping continues to be banned in all 240 Council-owned car parks."

The Tameside statement "In the borough of Tameside large vehicles such as motor homes and caravans are not permitted to park in council car park." came about as their response to me writing to all councils last year asking them to publish information for motorhome parking (whether allowed or not) on their web sites. The restriction actually covers all large vehicles, including large delivery vans for example, and the wording of the statement is simply to provide requested information for motorhome owners.

York Council have also reacted to prevent activity which was causing problems for residents, quite understandably. Having said that, why anyone would want to drive a motorhome round the busy streets of York city centre when there are perfectly adequate parking facilities at 4 of the 5 P&R sites is beyond me. We live close enough to York to be fairly regular day visitors by car. City centre parking was always difficult - and expensive - and we have used the P&R sites since they opened.

I understand the addition of the extra terminology by Aberdeen was the result of advice from the Scottish Government on clarification of the meaning of "caravan". Whilst the proposed order contains the words "set up, use or occupy" it does not seem to include just driving as part of "use". The proposed ban is, in reality, no different for motorhomes than for any other vehicle or form of shelter. The Council Report (p169 onwards) makes it clear that the proposed byelaw is in response to identified problems (mainly gypsy/traveller).

At the end of the day we have to realise that parking facilities (whether on street or off street) have been provided for the purpose of parking, not habitation. They are designed for that purpose and, as a result, many (especially off street) are not suitable for large vehicle use. We will only gain agreement for habitational use by constructive persuasion, not confrontation.
 
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John & Joan

John & Joan

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Hi Graham

I think the word use or Occupy is very significant. Without use it would be reasonable.
 

GJH

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The same wording applies to "a form of shelter" as well as to "a caravan, campervan, motorhome or tent". How one would drive a tent or "a form of shelter" takes a bit of imagining :) Thus, I don't think the word "use" is significant in the context of motorhomes. It simply provides the council with the means to crack down on the identified problem behaviour (behaviour oft complained of in threads on here).
 
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John & Joan

John & Joan

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It is when it is coupled with the words "drive to or through the designated areas." Also 6pm is well beyond the original 10pm of the draft order submitted.
 
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The problem is who is going to represent the views of motorhomers apart from minority groups. The big clubs wont they are interested in selling expensive pitches or promoting cls or cs sited and would be dead against aires or wild camping. Perhaps there needs to be a political wing of fun!!!

David
 

GJH

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It is when it is coupled with the words "drive to or through the designated areas." Also 6pm is well beyond the original 10pm of the draft order submitted.
I can't find that wording anywhere in the whole pack, never mind in the draft byelaw, John. In fact, the word "drive" doesn't even appear in the pack in the context of driving any motor vehicle. There is the wording "travelled to or within the Designated Area" (at para 2(1)(e)) but that applies to the ban as a whole, not specifically to motorhomes and not specifically driving (it could cover walking).

As regards the hours, if the longer period is required to counter the identified problems then why not?
 

GJH

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The problem is who is going to represent the views of motorhomers apart from minority groups. The big clubs wont they are interested in selling expensive pitches or promoting cls or cs sited and would be dead against aires or wild camping. Perhaps there needs to be a political wing of fun!!!

David
I've always said that progress will only be made by individuals working constructively. However, when somebody invents an organisation which is, in reality, representative only of their views and hides behind it rather than being open then that, in itself, is misrepresentation.
 
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John & Joan

John & Joan

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I can't find that wording anywhere in the whole pack, never mind in the draft byelaw, John. In fact, the word "drive" doesn't even appear in the pack in the context of driving any motor vehicle. There is the wording "travelled to or within the Designated Area" (at para 2(1)(e)) but that applies to the ban as a whole, not specifically to motorhomes and not specifically driving (it could cover walking).

As regards the hours, if the longer period is required to counter the identified problems then why not?
My misquote Graham you are right the word was travelled to not drive to.
John
 
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John & Joan

John & Joan

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The problem is who is going to represent the views of motorhomers apart from minority groups. The big clubs wont they are interested in selling expensive pitches or promoting cls or cs sited and would be dead against aires or wild camping. Perhaps there needs to be a political wing of fun!!!

David
We agree with your comment David

After much individual trying without success to get our views heard a group of us decided that it was better to join together .

That was why we set up the group now known as The Motorhome Tourism Organisation. We have now teamed up with the group members who started The Motorhome Association in Northern Ireland.

They have been successful in getting Aire facilities in Northern Ireland. The old http://themotorhomeassociation.org now links to The Motorhome Tourism Organisation website.

The group split and some are still active in Northern Ireland but the remainder went with MotorhomeingIreland group which is now concentrating on the republic.

A number of the Motorhome Association members are disillusioned CC members.
 
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