New Motorhome Tax Costs? - 1st Sep 2019 (1 Viewer)

[Blue Knight]

This provisionally sounds as if it will only be relevant to the new 6D engines.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the first of the Funsters buys one.

 

[PeteH]

The biggest fear, is that if the NEW motorhome market does shrink as a result. Where will my next S-H one come from and will it be more expensive as a result? ? ?. Look as if this one will be our last!.

 

[Deneb]

The biggest fear, is that if the NEW motorhome market does shrink as a result. Where will my next S-H one come from and will it be more expensive as a result? ? ?. Look as if this one will be our last!.

Well, there's still absolutely nothing about this that I can see on the VCA website, which includes latest notices to converters on changes to legislation affecting the construction and registration of multi-stage vehicles.

Part of me still wonders if this is a rumour being spread by dealers to steer prospective purchasers to existing stock as, although there is a derogation for multi-stage conversion vehicles which enables pre Euro 6d vehicles to be sold for a period after the legislation is introduced, any unregistered vehicles still in stock after the derogation expires will not be able to be registered, so there could be numbers of valueless vehicles left in dealers hands if they can't shift them in time.

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[gus-lopez]

that I can see on the VCA website, which includes latest notices to converters on changes to legislation affecting the

Make an FOI request o the UK. Gov and also the dvsa, asking the question.

 

[Deneb]

Make an FOI request o the UK. Gov and also the dvsa, asking the question.

It's not going to affect me, at least for the foreseeable future, but someone with an explicit financial interest might want to do that

If or when I decide to buy another MH, it will either be the case or it won't and I'll deal with it then. There will likely be other changes to contend with by that time as well.

I just find it odd that something which is supposed to have such an effect within a matter of weeks has not been communicated in any way other than by people with a vested interest in selling the product.

And as I never believe anything that comes out of a salesman's mouth unless it is independently verifiable...

 

[Pausim]

although there is a derogation for multi-stage conversion vehicles which enables pre Euro 6d vehicles to be sold for a period after the legislation is introduced

Do you know how long the derogation period is?

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[Cheshirecat57]

Nail on head Deneb
Probably trying to shift non derogated stock that is backing up ( old demos etc)

Pausim Derogation period is usually 12 months but can vary. Also manufacturer is limited by numbers so some chassis numbers will be and some wont be

Its a can of worms and probably a lot of salesman will not understand what they are spouting

The owners of the dealers should have a clear picture though......lots of stock money involved

 

[Minxy]

Part of me still wonders if this is a rumour being spread by dealers to steer prospective purchasers to existing stock as, although there is a derogation for multi-stage conversion vehicles which enables pre Euro 6d vehicles to be sold for a period after the legislation is introduced, any unregistered vehicles still in stock after the derogation expires will not be able to be registered, so there could be numbers of valueless vehicles left in dealers hands if they can't shift them in time.

Nail on head DenebProbably trying to shift non derogated stock that is backing up ( old demos etc)

Funny you two should say that ... this is the email which I sent to the NCC which I am still waiting for a reply to ...

Good afternoon​

​

I belong to a very large motorhome forum (www.motorhomefun.co.uk) on which a thread is running about information given on Spinney's website making reference to changes which 'imply' that new Euro 6D motorhomes, weighing 3500kg and below, will be subject to new VED charges wef 1 September 2019. The reason for writing to you about this is that they are citing that the information is based on "facts sourced from NCC official documentation", see link below:​

​

https://www.spinney.co.uk/about/new...Sbo4xmPk2bvcHt76Uxp1-C00xH2br5eWeFL9EUqqH6TOk​

​

As I am unable to find any reference to this change regarding motorhomes at all either on your site or on the internet anywhere, and would be most grateful if you could please confirm that what Spinney is 'alleging' is correct or if they are simply mistaken in their interpretation as that is what I would rather believe than they are using it as a scare tactic to entice people to buy their existing stock models.​

​

As you can appreciate this has unsettled a lot of potential new motorhome buyers so it would be good to be able to give them accurate information.​

 

[Blue Knight]

Well, there's still absolutely nothing about this that I can see on the VCA website, which includes latest notices to converters on changes to legislation affecting the construction and registration of multi-stage vehicles.

Part of me still wonders if this is a rumour being spread by dealers to steer prospective purchasers to existing stock as, although there is a derogation for multi-stage conversion vehicles which enables pre Euro 6d vehicles to be sold for a period after the legislation is introduced, any unregistered vehicles still in stock after the derogation expires will not be able to be registered, so there could be numbers of valueless vehicles left in dealers hands if they can't shift them in time.

You're a lot more knowledgeable than me on these subjects but as I was reading this thread I was starting to conclude the same thing; i.e. a rumour by the dealers to get their stock models cleared.

The motorhome sales market is most definelty slowing down from what I can see while some dealers have huge stock levels and huge potential debts sitting on their forecourts. It's probably no wonder that they want to get rid of the vans as soon as possible.

It all seems a bit fishy to me.

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[Deneb]

Broken Link Removed

Published yesterday

However, that briefing paper seems at odds with

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/816532/190617_-_WLTP_-_summary_of_responses_v2.2__1_.pdf

which states that HM Treasury have decided, following consultation, that no changes will be made to existing tax rates until at least April 2020, and that the new Worldwide harmonised Light vehicle Test Procedure figures should not be used to determine tax rates until April 2020 at the earliest.

The questions that I still can't answer:

Have DVLA decided that they will not register new motorhomes from 1st September 2019 unless the new WLTP emissions figures are present on the CoCs?

If so, existing vehicle tax legislation does require MHs to be registered in the appropriate Diesel Car tax band where an emissions (CO2) figure is included in the final stage CoC, and that being the case, the emissions related increased tax figures for years 1 to 5 would apply. BUT...

If so, how can that be reconciled with HM Treasury's decision (confirmed in the second linked document) that WLTP figures will NOT be used to determine vehicle tax rates until April 2020 and that no cars first registered before 6th April 2020 will be subject to WLTP rating? If that is the case, any figures on the CoC should be ignored until at least April 2020 and the old PLG tax band still used.

I suspect the most likely explanation is that the Briefing paper has not been properly researched, but prepared in a panicked response to industry concerns over what might still be Chinese whispers, albeit with an element of truth!

 

[Pausim]

Interesting papers, thank you. I don't think the two papers are addressing exactly the same subjects and may not be contradicting each other.

The second paper relates mostly to cars and vehicles that are already taxed by CO2 emissions. I think it is saying that the new testing procedures may produce higher CO2 figures and if applied they could mean increased tax levels. However they will not be using the new figures before April 20.

The first paper is motorhome specific. Currently motorhome Certificates of Conformity do not include CO2 figures so motorhomes have been treated as light goods vehicles. However the new rules from September 19 mean that new Certificates will have to include CO2 figures and therefore new motorhome registrations from that date will be subject to tax based on CO2 emission figures.

My new motorhome is being registered in August 19 under the old rules. It is a Euro 6B engine without CO2 figures on the certificate. My dealer says there is some short term derogation for particular vehicles that are already in the system, which means that there will be some new 6B engine registrations under the old rules after the cut off date. The DVLA said much the same when I emailed them a few weeks back and queried what would happen if delivery of my 6B engined vehicle was delayed until after September 1. Apart from the few vehicles covered by the derogation my understanding is that from September new motorhomes will need to be Euro 6D tested and CO2 figures from the Certificates will be used for taxing them.

I have had a long day and do not pretend that I am any kind of expert on vehicle tax. Also I might have misunderstood the two papers, this is just my personal understanding.

 

[pappajohn]

You do realise the fine for no tax will be a fraction of the tax cost.

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[Deneb]

Interesting papers, thank you. I don't think the two papers are addressing exactly the same subjects and may not be contradicting each other.

The second paper relates mostly to cars and vehicles that are a

The first paper is motorhome specific. Currently motorhome Certificates of Conformity do not include CO2 figures so motorhomes have been treated as light goods vehicles. However the new rules from September 19 mean that new Certificates will have to include CO2 figures and therefore new motorhome registrations from that date will be subject to tax based on CO2 emission figures.

My new motorhome is being registered in August 19 under the old rules. It is a Euro 6B engine without CO2 figures on the certificate. My dealer says there is some short term derogation for particular vehicles that are already in the system, which means that there will be some new 6B engine registrations under the old rules after the cut off date. The DVLA said much the same when I emailed them a few weeks back and queried what would happen if delivery of my 6B engined vehicle was delayed until after September 1. Apart from the few vehicles covered by the derogation my understanding is that from September new motorhomes will need to be Euro 6D tested and CO2 figures from the Certificates will be used for taxing them.

I have had a long day and do not pretend that I am any kind of expert on vehicle tax. Also I might have misunderstood the two papers, this is just my personal understanding.

The new WLTP figures are expected to be up to 25% higher than stated under the current regime for existing vehicles.

It appears that the WLTP figures have to be entered on all CoCs from 1st September, but for motorhomes that only applies to Euro 6D/Temp vehicles, so previous generation vehicles can still be issued with CoCs where the CO2 is not stated.

That suggests new motorhomes with CO2 figures will have to be registered under Diesel Car tax bands under the existing 2017 tax ratings as you say, but my point is that the figures if stated will have been determined by WLTP, yet the Treasury state that WLTP figures will not be used to determine tax rates until April 2020 at the earliest. That being the case, DVLA should surely be ignoring them for the time being?

The EC document mentioned in the Parliamentary briefing paper is also interesting. It appears that motorhomes subject to Euro 6D will be allowed to use the original base vehicle WLTP figure, but only as long as their increased frontal area does not exceed the original vehicle's dimensions by more than a specific margin. I suspect there may be a move towards more PVC production or at least coach-built vehicles with smaller and more streamlined bodies, possibly at the expense of habitable practicability. Either that or it will encourage heavier vehicles which for the time being are not included in the regulations, but of course that would involve driving licence and other issues.

 

[Pausim]

You do realise the fine for no tax will be a fraction of the tax cost.

Does the fine cover 1 year or only until you pass the next ANPR camera?

 

[Deneb]

You do realise the fine for no tax will be a fraction of the tax cost.

Automatic fine for the registered keeper if there is no evidence that the vehicle has been used on a public road is £80. If the vehicle is seen or photographed on a public road, between one and a half and two times the outstanding annual tax charge plus a fine, plus a clamping and release fee or recovery fee and pound storage charge if clamped or seized by a DVLA enforcement contractor.

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[7735]

I am even more confused with this than I am with the brexit fiasco. If it’s anything approaching the worst case scenario we are going to see many dealers and manufacturers going out of business. Personally I was considering buying new this year but I think I will hang on to my existing ( euro4) motorhome at least until it is clearer.
Spongy

 

[Spriddler]

The biggest fear, is that if the NEW motorhome market does shrink as a result. Where will my next S-H one come from and will it be more expensive as a result? ? ?. Look as if this one will be our last!.

I doubt that anyone actually wears out their motorhome but change it purely out of choice e.g. must have the latest fashion, design, technology etc., or if their circumstances change.

 

[jearing]

Just seems like the government trying to run us all off the road,short sighted as the econamy will suffer.

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[Pausim]

Just seems like the government trying to run us all off the road,short sighted as the econamy will suffer.

Don’t whinge too much. I suspect the average motorist has no idea that motorhomes have been getting away with lower rates of tax than equivalent cars for a while. We might get a few thousand signatures on a petition in our favour but one suggesting we pay more would likely attract hundreds of thousands. If you are driving a motorhome under the existing system then you might be wise to keep your head down and be grateful that they are not yet backdating it, using estimated or average CO2 figures. As for the economy I suspect that it would have very little impact, unlike the decline in home car production.

 

[Deneb]

Don’t whinge too much. I suspect the average motorist has no idea that motorhomes have been getting away with lower rates of tax than equivalent cars for a while. We might get a few thousand signatures on a petition in our favour but one suggesting we pay more would likely attract hundreds of thousands. If you are driving a motorhome under the existing system then you might be wise to keep your head down and be grateful that they are not yet backdating it, using estimated or average CO2 figures. As for the economy I suspect that it would have very little impact, unlike the decline in home car production.

Yes, I sometimes think that people who start and sign some of these petitions, created as a knee jerk reaction, are their own worst enemies. All they will succeed in doing is highlighting an anomaly that has probably so far been under the radar to a large extent, and bring it to the attention of politicians who may think it offers an opportunity for ripe pickings

 

[Arzedby]

I profess to being somewhat confused my all this emissions/CoC/V5c mullarky.
On the V5c there are 2 places for CO2 emissions. V.7 towards the top and V.1 lower down under V Exhaust emissions. I don't recall what was on the CoC for my Pilote P650 but I do know that both fields were blank on the V5c and that it was registered as Private/Light Goods and body type Motorcaravan.
The CoC for my new IH PVC there are 2 sections for CO2 emissions. Para 47 (Exhaust emission level) which states a figure of 110.1 mg/km which duplicates what is stated on the CoC for the Fiat Base Vehicle. There is also another section, Para 49 (CO2 emissions/fuel consumption which is broken down into various driving conditions and all of which have been left blank. The V5c for the IH has V.7 blank and the V.1 section states 0.11 g/km, which mirrors Para 47 on the IH CoC. The IH is however registered as Private/Light Goods and body type Motorcaravan. Annual VED is currently £265.
So what is going to change in September?, or next April for that matter? If it is the taxation class, they could do that anyway, at any time if they wanted to couldn't they?

..

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[Deneb]

I profess to being somewhat confused my all this emissions/CoC/V5c mullarky.
On the V5c there are 2 places for CO2 emissions. V.7 towards the top and V.1 lower down under V Exhaust emissions. I don't recall what was on the CoC for my Pilote P650 but I do know that both fields were blank on the V5c and that it was registered as Private/Light Goods and body type Motorcaravan.
The CoC for my new IH PVC there are 2 sections for CO2 emissions. Para 47 (Exhaust emission level) which states a figure of 110.1 mg/km which duplicates what is stated on the CoC for the Fiat Base Vehicle. There is also another section, Para 49 (CO2 emissions/fuel consumption which is broken down into various driving conditions and all of which have been left blank. The V5c for the IH has V.7 blank and the V.1 section states 0.11 g/km, which mirrors Para 47 on the IH CoC. The IH is however registered as Private/Light Goods and body type Motorcaravan. Annual VED is currently £265.
So what is going to change in September?, or next April for that matter? If it is the taxation class, they could do that anyway, at any time if they wanted to couldn't they?

..

As your van is already registered, absolutely nothing at present under current legislation. It will remain in the PLG tax class, subject to whatever rate of tax is applied to the PLG class at annual reviews.

There is always the possibility that the law could change at some future date, but such changes are rarely retrospective.

 

[addoaddo]

I agree that we should keep our heads down, all that is happening is that a loop hole is being closed by accident from that fact that all Euro 6D engines have to have the Co2 emissions on the V5 which means they will be taxed as cars.

It is not a new tax and not targeted at motorhomes

 

[Arzedby]

I agree that we should keep our heads down, all that is happening is that a loop hole is being closed by accident from that fact that all Euro 6D engines have to have the Co2 emissions on the V5 which means they will be taxed as cars.

It is not a new tax and not targeted at motorhomes

That's what I understand, however the point I am making, in an admittedly convoluted fashion, is that my V5c does have Co2 emissions on it currently and yet it is taxed as PLG / Motorcaravan.

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[ABZSteve]

I don't like these tax collections anymore than the next person but IMO this new tax system on MoHo's is perfectly acceptable and fair and, more importantly to me, it helps establish a common tax threshold on higher value items; i.e. all >3.5T vehicles over £40,000.

My main car and motorhome both cost about the same to purchase so why do I now have to pay a much higher VED on the car when my motorhome was the same value and yet pollutes more than my 'every day' wheels.

If someone can afford a new motorhome which, in itself is a highly luxurious item, then, IMO, that same someone can surely afford the relevant taxes, insurances, repairs and fuel to keep it on the road. If you can't afford it then welcome to the real world!

I can recall a thread some weeks ago whereby a Funster had bought a MoHo costing c.£115,000 and then decided to complain about the £1,000 insurance premium that landed through his letterbox. Everyone seems to want everything for nothing these days!

Enough said, I'm jumping off my box to go and put the kettle on.

........
...now shall I choose a mint-flavoured club biscuit or an orange club biscuit; bloody decisions!

Mint

 

[Deneb]

That's what I understand, however the point I am making, in an admittedly convoluted fashion, is that my V5c does have Co2 emissions on it currently and yet it is taxed as PLG / Motorcaravan.

Then I'd keep your head down too You have been lucky that someone wasn't paying attention at DVLA. My understanding is that as the vehicle has been placed in the PLG tax class, it cannot now be changed, and it won't be unless you bring it to someone's attention (although even then I don't believe it can be as it is set in stone at first registration). But no point in deliberately trying to test that unless you have a pot of money that you no longer need. If on the off chance you do, can I suggest you send it to me rather than DVLA

Edit: Actually re-reading your previous post, I don't think anything is amiss. My Euro 5+ PLG taxed MH V5C is blank at section V.7, which I think is the one that matters for tax purposes. I also have various emissions figures stated at sections V.1 to V.5.

My final stage CoC is blank in all parts of sections 48 and 49. Section 47 simply states "Euro".

Knowing the way that a lot of the other V5 information is populated, I suspect that the figures in sections V.1 to V.5 are automatically entered from a database when other information relating to the base vehicle make and model are selected by the person inputting the details.

So everything looks entirely as it should be to me.

 

[scousebird]

We collect our new MH on 1st September and our dealer gave us this to explain it all. Our new MH is a Euro 6b which is covered in the existing tax rules.

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[Deneb]

View attachment 323912
We collect our new MH on 1st September and our dealer gave us this to explain it all. Our new MH is a Euro 6b which is covered in the existing tax rules.

It's all under existing tax rules. It's just that the mandatory inclusion of the WLTP CO2 figure on the CoC places the vehicle in a different tax class (Diesel Car instead of PLG).

But we're not certain that the dealer's are right either, because although 1st September is the date from which the inclusion of WLTP CO2 figures commences, HM Treasury have stated that the WLTP figures should not be used to determine rates of vehicle tax until at least 6th April 2020. If the figures should not be used, any Euro 6D vans registered prior to 6th April 2020 should also be taxed as PLG unless the DVLA have a different interpretation.

But prior to the Parliamentary Research Paper being published last week, all anyone had to go on were some dealers' claims such as the one in your photo, which may be not strictly accurate but nevertheless designed to encourage prospective purchasers to buy sooner rather than later.

It goes back to the old question, "How can you tell when a dealer is lying?"

 

[Langtoftlad]

So I suspect it will probably be bad news but not as bad as dealerships' Project Fear is suggesting...
I looked up my Citroen Relay 2.0l 130 AdBlue emissions:

...and the chart from above:

which suggests VED of £530 (or £855 if criteria not met)...

A significant increase to be sure, but not as bad as Helen's pamphlet suggests.

I'd hope the Euro 6D which reduce emissions further but probably unlikely to achieve a below 150g needed for the lower band.

But as I'm non techie, I could easily have got it wrong.

 

[Deneb]

So I suspect it will probably be bad news but not as bad as dealerships' Project Fear is suggesting...
I looked up my Citroen Relay 2.0l 130 AdBlue emissions:

View attachment 323924

...and the chart from above:

View attachment 323925

which suggests VED of £530 (or £855 if criteria not met)...

A significant increase to be sure, but not as bad as Helen's pamphlet suggests.

I'd hope the Euro 6D which reduce emissions further but probably unlikely to achieve a below 150g needed for the lower band.

But as I'm non techie, I could easily have got it wrong.

WLTD figures will be based on new tests simulating "real world driving conditions". The whole situation has come about largely due to the VW "scandal" and other manufacturers installing defeat devices in their software. Although Euro 6D engines have a lower emissions limit than previous versions, the test conditions are expected to result in an up to 25% increase in derived figures according to EU documents. Some car manufacturers are already considering deleting some higher end vehicles from their ranges and removing accessories to lower their averaged emissions values.

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