new lithium batteries

[chrisandbev]

hi,
i have a 2019 delaware van with 2 lead batteries, i want to change them for two lithium batteries, will they work with the sergeant controller, i also have 350wat solar panel that i used on my last van that will go to a mmpt controller these ate 1x150 two x 100watt.

the delaware already has a 100 wat solar fitted.

i was also thinking as an alternative to putting the lithium batteries in the van and some how connecting them to the 12 volt system leaving the other batteries in place running my inverter only off the lithium batteries

any advice would be appreciated

 

[Blue Knight]

Kannon Fodda is probably the best man to help with your scenerio as he has some tip-top experience of adding Lithium to Autotrail electrics.

Good luck,

Andrew

 

[Robert Clark]

That’s exactly what I did in our last van
Was a prefect solution
No risk of the inverter draining the leisure battery
Ran solar and a B2B direct to the lithium batteries and then fitted a sterling 3A battery master ti top up the leisure battery and another one for the engine battery

 

[chrisandbev]

That’s exactly what I did in our last van
Was a prefect solution
No risk of the inverter draining the leisure battery
Ran solar and a B2B direct to the lithium batteries and then fitted a sterling 3A battery master ti top up the leisure battery and another one for the engine battery

hi thanks for that i must be going along the right lines then.

one question though, do you think i can connect the lithium to the main wiring in the van without messing with the original system

many thanks

chris

 

[Robert Clark]

hi thanks for that i must be going along the right lines then.

one question though, do you think i can connect the lithium to the main wiring in the van without messing with the original system

many thanks

chris

I don’t know as I never did this

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[tonyidle]

There's tons of information on You Tube. Some of it is even useful. As far as running the motorhome directly from lithium there's no problem as such 12v is 12v wherever it comes from. The problem with charging from the existing charger may be two-fold: the lithiums will work it harder (which might be OK) ; the maximum charge voltage won't be high enough to fully charge the lithium. Most information about charging in a vehicle is for B2B or solar.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

A wiring diagram may be available from Autotrail in the back of the handbook.

If the Delaware is remotely like the V-Line then the wiring will be quite basic. Effectively for my PVC swapping out the pathetic sized 72Ah lead acid leisure battery to 120Ah Sterling Lithium meant disabling the the Sargent EC176 combined 12V / 230V relay / charger / fusebox thingy from engine charging replaced with a Sterling B2B unit and heavy duty cabling, and upgrade of the solar controller on the installed 100W panel from the pants PWM unit to a Victron MPPT. The EC176 is a very basic 12V charger, either on, or off. With my now decent capacity lithium, I've got more than enough 12V to last 3-4 days without recharging, often topped off with a bit of solar, so I just leave the Sargent charger off if I'm on hook up, and would manually switch on for a few hours, then off again as the EC1176 won't go into any sort of float mode and would try and overcharge the lithium (there would have been a similar issue with the original lead battery. Really is appalling in a modern build vehicle.

For Autotrail, all the wires for anything habitation end, 12V habitation, 230V Hook up and internal, go through the Sargent unit. This I expect also applied to your Delaware.

If you are adding a lot more solar capacity, the cables from your existing solar through the Sargent to batteries are probably undersized. You could be better separately wiring the new solar panels and new controller direct to your battery bank, bypassing the Sargent box completely.

Sargent suggest the EC500 does have a form of 3 stage charge (mains hook up to battery). But it won't be a lithium profile so voltages alone may not be compatible.

I have since added a small inverter, only a couple of hundred Watt so I can charge an e-bike battery (that takes some 30%+ capacity from the Lithium), or use a larger laptop that draws too much power for a simple 12V converter thing. I did not attempt to wire that to the existing 230 outlets in the cabin. Too much effort.

One small issue I am seeing is some of the LED strip lights in my van are starting to fail. Lithium can be a slightly higher voltage than lead acid. Nominally it's 12V but the operating voltages can be over 13V compared to a full charge lead acid around 12.6V. Slightly higher voltages apparently mean a little more heat and the tiny LEDs in the strip lights aren't happy. Of course Autotrail didn't fit any regulator.

 

[chrisandbev]

A wiring diagram may be available from Autotrail in the back of the handbook.

If the Delaware is remotely like the V-Line then the wiring will be quite basic. Effectively for my PVC swapping out the pathetic sized 72Ah lead acid leisure battery to 120Ah Sterling Lithium meant disabling the the Sargent EC176 combined 12V / 230V relay / charger / fusebox thingy from engine charging replaced with a Sterling B2B unit and heavy duty cabling, and upgrade of the solar controller on the installed 100W panel from the pants PWM unit to a Victron MPPT. The EC176 is a very basic 12V charger, either on, or off. With my now decent capacity lithium, I've got more than enough 12V to last 3-4 days without recharging, often topped off with a bit of solar, so I just leave the Sargent charger off if I'm on hook up, and would manually switch on for a few hours, then off again as the EC1176 won't go into any sort of float mode and would try and overcharge the lithium (there would have been a similar issue with the original lead battery. Really is appalling in a modern build vehicle.

For Autotrail, all the wires for anything habitation end, 12V habitation, 230V Hook up and internal, go through the Sargent unit. This I expect also applied to your Delaware.

If you are adding a lot more solar capacity, the cables from your existing solar through the Sargent to batteries are probably undersized. You could be better separately wiring the new solar panels and new controller direct to your battery bank, bypassing the Sargent box completely.

Sargent suggest the EC500 does have a form of 3 stage charge (mains hook up to battery). But it won't be a lithium profile so voltages alone may not be compatible.

I have since added a small inverter, only a couple of hundred Watt so I can charge an e-bike battery (that takes some 30%+ capacity from the Lithium), or use a larger laptop that draws too much power for a simple 12V converter thing. I did not attempt to wire that to the existing 230 outlets in the cabin. Too much effort.

One small issue I am seeing is some of the LED strip lights in my van are starting to fail. Lithium can be a slightly higher voltage than lead acid. Nominally it's 12V but the operating voltages can be over 13V compared to a full charge lead acid around 12.6V. Slightly higher voltages apparently mean a little more heat and the tiny LEDs in the strip lights aren't happy. Of course Autotrail didn't fit any regulator.

thank you very much for getting back to me

chris

 

[Tombola]

A wiring diagram may be available from Autotrail in the back of the handbook.

If the Delaware is remotely like the V-Line then the wiring will be quite basic. Effectively for my PVC swapping out the pathetic sized 72Ah lead acid leisure battery to 120Ah Sterling Lithium meant disabling the the Sargent EC176 combined 12V / 230V relay / charger / fusebox thingy from engine charging replaced with a Sterling B2B unit and heavy duty cabling, and upgrade of the solar controller on the installed 100W panel from the pants PWM unit to a Victron MPPT. The EC176 is a very basic 12V charger, either on, or off. With my now decent capacity lithium, I've got more than enough 12V to last 3-4 days without recharging, often topped off with a bit of solar, so I just leave the Sargent charger off if I'm on hook up, and would manually switch on for a few hours, then off again as the EC1176 won't go into any sort of float mode and would try and overcharge the lithium (there would have been a similar issue with the original lead battery. Really is appalling in a modern build vehicle.

For Autotrail, all the wires for anything habitation end, 12V habitation, 230V Hook up and internal, go through the Sargent unit. This I expect also applied to your Delaware.

If you are adding a lot more solar capacity, the cables from your existing solar through the Sargent to batteries are probably undersized. You could be better separately wiring the new solar panels and new controller direct to your battery bank, bypassing the Sargent box completely.

Sargent suggest the EC500 does have a form of 3 stage charge (mains hook up to battery). But it won't be a lithium profile so voltages alone may not be compatible.

I have since added a small inverter, only a couple of hundred Watt so I can charge an e-bike battery (that takes some 30%+ capacity from the Lithium), or use a larger laptop that draws too much power for a simple 12V converter thing. I did not attempt to wire that to the existing 230 outlets in the cabin. Too much effort.

One small issue I am seeing is some of the LED strip lights in my van are starting to fail. Lithium can be a slightly higher voltage than lead acid. Nominally it's 12V but the operating voltages can be over 13V compared to a full charge lead acid around 12.6V. Slightly higher voltages apparently mean a little more heat and the tiny LEDs in the strip lights aren't happy. Of course Autotrail didn't fit any regulator.

I done pretty much this to my Autotrail.
YEs the ec176 charger and associated wiring is pants.
I added 300 w of solar
I swapped my solar controller for mppt and placed close to the batteries with thicker cables than originals and added an isolator switch to allow me to switch off when needed.. I Bypassed the little black round switch that says charge cab battery or leisure and fitted a battery master from the lithiums to the cab to keep that topped up in winter via solar. Works a treat..
I added the 200 ah bluetooth lithium with a victron orion b2b charger 30 amp.
I spliced into the EHU inlet for 230v and added a change over realy so when on EHU or invertor it auto switches.
I have a 2kw-4kw invertor linked via big daddy cables that will run the microwave, toaster, hairdryer etc (not ll at once)
and finally ran a cable under the van floor from the exisiting 230v to add another socket next to the batteries where I sit a victron 3 stage charger (instead of using the patry sergant one) should it be required. Once every few months I make sure to discharge right down then fill up again.

 

[Guigsy]

Similar questions... so I'll extend this thread...

When we changed the van, one of the reasons for choosing the layout was there was enough room for both of us to remote work on our laptops. So we could extend a weekend getaway by driving in the evenings, working the next day from the van and already be chilled. We did a dry run yesterday, arriving late on Thursday (I got an hour of mountain biking in before 9am) and then effectively working from the woods all day. The van has a standard 95AH battery, which I suspect has been abused, so I was expecting issues...

Got up in the morning and the van's control panel said the battery was at 80% (I think it's a shunt based measure?). By mid-morning, my wife's laptop was already well down on juice, so I plugged my little 200w invertor into a 12v socket. According to the van's control panel, it was pulling about 5A. This worked OK for about half an hour before the invertor started cutting out. The control panel said the battery had 65% charge and was sagging to 12.2v (and was probably lower by the time it got along the skinny wires to 12v socket and the invertor). Luckily the weather was good yesterday afternoon, so moved the van into the sun and got the solar pumping nearly 100w into the system, which was enough to prop up the battery and keep the laptop charged. We lasted until the end of the day. But it's clear that this wouldn't have worked if it hadn't been sunny or if we'd needed heating and more lights.

Does it sound like the battery is weak? Am I just expecting too much? Or something else?

I was thinking of switching to a Lithium battery. I don't think the van's Schaudt electrics has a Lithium setting. So if I only change the battery and nothing else, am I correct in thinking that charging from an EHU and alternator will be low current and probably never fully charge a Lithium battery?

The solar setup is only 165w on a Victron, so the capacity isn't great, but it does have a Lithium setting.

So to take full advantage of a Lithium battery, do I also need to get a DC-DC charger to get more power from the alternator while the engine is running? Something like a 30A Victron Orion? How do I stop the existing Schaudt electrics from charging from the alternator?

Long term, I'd maybe think of getting a low power lithium charger for EHU. Probably doesn't need to be high power as EHU implies being plugged in for a while and I don't want to blow a fuse. Again, how to I stop the Schaudt charger?

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[Tombola]

Guigsy
Is your LB Lead acid, if so you only have half that to play with .
You say you drive to your place then you get to work, this would allow a b2b charger to make sure you are full, but if you have left home and was already charging on ehu and have a full lithium battery say 100ah you will get double the capacity from the battery you have now whihc may suit you if you are only ever a couple of days.

In short, if lithium and you are using a lot of power , then yes b2b is a v good idea. your 165w of solar and victron mppt could also keep you topped up (summer) .

100ah lithiums to try are available now for around 400 quid on ebay/amazon (less if you cba buying cells and making your own) .
Only you can decide if its worth it, but for me, if I can whizz away with my laptop (which I do) and plug in my inverter and work beside a lake or whatever, the money is well worth it, and i get more productive.

Im not sure of the Schaudts system output, but you are right lithium doesnt like to be constantly floated, but there are plenty of cheaper chargers around if needed, and the schaudt still can be used the odd time if you are stuck without. I left mine as it was when adding my set up, just switched off but did use it the odd time when Id took my main charger out of the van at home and forgot it

But with a decent b2b and driving to your destination, you will soon find if that is enough for your needs. My b2b was the victron orion, 30a, I had 200ah of lithium, when driving with b2b turned on (i fitted a switch so I could have in on or off) solar turned on, and alternator, I get get up to 50 or 60 going in when sunny. Minimum 37-38 when not sunny (none smart alternator and b2b) so that alone gave me plenty after an hours drive.

Me, id drop a lithium in, and a b2b, so Im done. they can always be taken with you to your next van. Nothing better than having the power esp when yoru work relies on it.

 

[the1andonly]

If you are going to diy i would add a b2b and decent wiring first. Battery Min 10mm pref 16mm for a cost effective 1st step i used a votronics 30A b2b (that can be added to with a second to make 60A if really required when you jump to 200ah lithium) go away 2 weekends, is this good enough?
Next step
Step 2
100Ah lithium, maybe next year, or not? Are prices going up or down? The battery i bought in march is now £250 more expensive. Whats going on.
Step3
To monitor or not to? With LA i had a cheap Chinese coulomb counter, did the job but no settings for Li.
For your Guigsy application i would. From reading and advice from here i bought a victron bmv712. The smart shunt would do the measurements but the bmv712 can control 2 relays to aid winterize ing ie stop charging at a given soc eg 80% and start again at a low of eg 30%. My current method is to use a 100A issolator.
Step 4
Asses new requirements, do i need to park under trees so often
Yes does my soc get back to 100% by x oclock, no get another battery
No does my soc get back to 100% by x oclock, no, get more solar
Step 5
Asses requirements,
ok leave alone, get cheap 10A li charger for ehu at home, else add more solar

 

[the1andonly]

Guigsy

if you insist parking under trees 9 oclock 21 September
73% soc at 9 full at 12.(only 550w solar)
Luckily sun moves. Another reason for having more than needed/ balenced. Even in these conditions over 4 days the bmv never said less than 10 days remaining.

 

[autorouter]

So to take full advantage of a Lithium battery, do I also need to get a DC-DC charger to get more power from the alternator while the engine is running? Something like a 30A Victron Orion? How do I stop the existing Schaudt electrics from charging from the alternator?

Does it have a Schaudt Electroblock, and if so what model is it?
This thread may be of interest, it's for an EBL99. My post (#5) gives the basic idea, it's probably much the same.

Renogy dc dc mppt with schaudt 99

Hello guys :) I need help to connect the dc-dc mppt charger, cause I don't know how bypass the ebl 99 :( Can someone explain me, what do I need do?

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Long term, I'd maybe think of getting a low power lithium charger for EHU. Probably doesn't need to be high power as EHU implies being plugged in for a while and I don't want to blow a fuse. Again, how to I stop the Schaudt charger

There's a fuse labelled 'Internes Lademodul', pull that to isolate the built-in EHU charger. However that also cuts off the output to the starter battery from the EHU charger, so you might need to work around that.

 

[Guigsy]

Does it have a Schaudt Electroblock, and if so what model is it?
This thread may be of interest, it's for an EBL99. My post (#5) gives the basic idea, it's probably much the same.

It's a Schaudt ebl630b, which seems pretty rare.

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