New leisure batteries needed, which one? (1 Viewer)

[Badknee]

our two 125ah batteries are gassing up and seemed to have failed this week. We have been away and have had a mix of ehu and off grid. On Tues we were off grid and ran out of power, we'd we were back on ehu and fine. Today our carbon monoxide alarm has been sounding and when I checked both batteries were very warm. Checked the output from the Sargent charger and was as recommended 14.85v, soooooo, which lead acid batteries are people using? I realise that there are more modern batteries out there but Sargent recommend lead acid for this charger.

 

[Minxy]

There's another thread running at the moment about batteries ...

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/leisure-battery-cooked.147825/

 

[Lenny HB]

Varta appear to be cream of the crop at the moment, lots of good reports on the LDF90 that particular one is a low profile battery. Although slightly less capacity than your current batteries in practice may not perform any worse it depends how good your original batteries were and if they lived up to their spec, a lot don't.

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[eddie]

The most you can get for the least money

 

[JockandRita]

@Badknee. Hi Paul,

I ditched the normal leisure type batteries, and went for 2 x Trojan T105 traction batteries, rated at 6v and 225 amps.

They are capable of being used past their 50% capacity, without causing damage. I have been advised possibly as much as 80% by @jonandshell, who installed them for me, but I've not been in that situation yet. Apart from topping up twice a year, they are no bother at all, providing access is easy.

Good luck with your choice.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[JeanLuc]

Just a pointer regarding Varta batteries (I have 2 x LFD90 and am very happy with them).
The Varta guide recommends a maximum absorption stage voltage of 14.4V for their flooded batteries (e.g. LFD90), and 14.8V for their AGM batteries (e.g. LA95). Both lower than your charger's output.
However, before rushing to buy AGM batteries, note that Varta also recommend the following current output from the charger during the 'Bulk' phase of charging. Flooded batteries - 10% of nominal capacity; AGM batteries - 25% of nominal capacity.
That means that 2 x LFD90 should, ideally, be charged at 18 amps and 2 x LA95 at 47.5 amps. The flooded requirement is fine since a lot of motorhome chargers are capable of 18 amps, but I doubt if any are capable of over 40 amps unless an additional charging module has been fitted.

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[Badknee]

Just a pointer regarding Varta batteries (I have 2 x LFD90 and am very happy with them).
The Varta guide recommends a maximum absorption stage voltage of 14.4V for their flooded batteries (e.g. LFD90), and 14.8V for their AGM batteries (e.g. LA95). Both lower than your charger's output.
However, before rushing to buy AGM batteries, note that Varta also recommend the following current output from the charger during the 'Bulk' phase of charging. Flooded batteries - 10% of nominal capacity; AGM batteries - 25% of nominal capacity.
That means that 2 x LFD90 should, ideally, be charged at 18 amps and 2 x LA95 at 47.5 amps. The flooded requirement is fine since a lot of motorhome chargers are capable of 18 amps, but I doubt if any are capable of over 40 amps unless an additional charging module has been fitted.

Thanks Philip, I am going to ring Sargent on Monday as I have been told their helpdesk is very good, I want to check out the charger before I buy any new batteries in case it's the charger buggering up the batteries. I will ask the question you have posed

 

[JeanLuc]

Varta are also very helpful if you phone for technical advice. I checked with them before buying LFD90 to connect to my Elektrobloc EBL99
Tel: 01753 480610 (Johnson Controls Batteries Ltd.)

 

[Gromett]

Over the years I have come to a couple of conclusions about batteries.
1) Ignore the manufacturers claims.
2) The best indicator of quality is weight. Lead costs money cheaper batteries have less lead, they wear out quicker.
3) Batteries die quicker the more often you discharge them and the deeper you discharge them. Go for the largest amount of AH you can afford/fit in and discharge them as little as possible.

My last battery bank lasted me 8 years 6 of which were as a fulltimer.

My personal preference now is VRLA AGM's. I am currently looking to buy 4 of these as soon as I have paid for the welding and New front shock absorbers. This will give me 500 AH.

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[Minxy]

My personal preference now is VRLA AGM's. I am currently looking to buy 4 of these as soon as I have paid for the welding and New front shock absorbers. This will give me 500 AH.

They only have a 250 charge/discharge life cycle ... is that sufficient?

 

[Lenny HB]

My personal preference now is VRLA AGM's. I am currently looking to buy 4 of these as soon as I have paid for the welding and New front shock absorbers. This will give me 500 AH.

Those are standard flooded wet cells, I wouldn't use AGM's unless you are absolutely certain your charger has a very good AGM charge regime. If you want long life and high discharge levels traction batteries are your best bet or if you don't want to spend that much Gel's are a good alternative but they also require the correct charger.

 

[Gromett]

They only have a 250 charge/discharge life cycle ... is that sufficient?

See conclusion 1 above

How have they measured that 250 cycle lifespan? Are they discharging to 50%? I never discharge that low. The batteries as dual usage so are they specifying them as being used for starting as well which involves high current discharge rates?

Basically I looked at the weight, The £/KG was good enough for me. It is a sealed unit and I can only presume VRLA.

I reckon I will get 3 years out of them easily. I am on hookup all winter and have 240Watts of solar for use during the summer. I don't operate an inverter.

My guess is, that that cycle lifespan is probably fairly accurate and represents a full discharge then a full charge per cycle. If you don't discharge fully then you will get a lot more cycles.

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[Gromett]

Those are standard flooded wet cells, I wouldn't use AGM's unless you are absolutely certain your charger has a very good AGM charge regime. If you want long life and high discharge levels traction batteries are your best bet or if you don't want to spend that much Gel's are a good alternative but they also require the correct charger.

I like AGM's because they don't gas like flooded cells. Yes my charger is a top of the range 60Amp Sterling Charger.

Those batteries were a compromise this time for price. I can't afford the £400 per battery I spent last time on the Heavy duty ones I bought last time. They do look like AGM sealed to me. It says so at the bottom of the listing "Special sealed covers - P" I can't imagine a standard flooded lead acid being sealed as they gas too much.

 

[eddie]

I find many theories, whilst quite correct, bear little resemblance to what actual happens.

Charging regimes are fine, but when you start the engine, on what was designed to be a daily delivery van, the alternator, installed to charge one lead acid battery, won't know any of this, and, on e the engine is running and all the batteries are in parallel will just see one big battery and attempt to charge it, at circa 14.8 VDC

Many people still think that the "split charger" charges the engine battery and then when the engine battery is fully charged transfers the charge and concentrates on charging the leisure batteries.

Whereas, a relay is energised by the signal on the D+ designed to be an alternator failure warning light, with the relay energised the circuit is closed between the engine and leisure battery(s) as soon as the engine is started. What ever the state of play of either batteries. All at circa 14.8 VDC

This is why often we get people coming to us at their wits end as their engine batteries keep going flat and no one knows why? New engine batteries, new alternators, earth leads, you name it.

When we ask if the leisure batteries have been properly checked, we get looked at as if we are mad. The trouble is, with the normal split charge system, If the leisure battery(s) is flat when the engine is started (connecting the leisure and engine batteries together to all intents and purposes) and the alternator is only producing for a short while, the leisure battery will be in a better state, and the engine battery will be in a worse state.

So often, the reason that an engine battery is going flat sooner than expected, is the simple fact that it wasn't fully charged when left, so will fail quicker. It's a bit like saying with a 100 litres of fuel I should be able to drive 100 miles, putting 50 litres into the tank when it's empty and being surprised that you stop after 50 miles, and then inspecting the odometer to work out the problem.

If you really want to charge your batteries efficiently you need something like this https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-diode-battery-isolators

If you don't have a bespoke charging system, then getting anxious about percentages, voltages, bulk and absorbtion phases, to me, seems pointless given it all flies out the window when the engine is started

 

[eddie]

Lead acid batteries with lids so you can top them up is king for leisure in my opinion

Whether they are the easiest to maintain is a different answer lol

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[Lenny HB]

I like AGM's because they don't gas like flooded cells. Yes my charger is a top of the range 60Amp Sterling Charger.

Those batteries were a compromise this time for price. I can't afford the £400 per battery I spent last time on the Heavy duty ones I bought last time. They do look like AGM sealed to me. It says so at the bottom of the listing "Special sealed covers - P" I can't imagine a standard flooded lead acid being sealed as they gas too much.

From their spec:-

This range of Hankook Dual Purpose batteries are of a lead calcium construction enabling longer life and better starting capabilities than conventional leisure batteries. This item is a dual purpose battery which will deliver powerful cranking amperage for easy starting and deep cycling, low amp draw service for reliable auxiliary power. Unlike a car battery, these batteries can handle being discharged to a higher capacity and recharged again without affecting future performance.

Key Features:

• Dual Terminals.
• Magic- Eye Indicator - for checking charging state.
• Excellent Design Handle - easy battery replacement.
• 100% Maintenance Free - fully charged and ready for use.
• Special Sealed Covers - prevent acid leakage and minimize gassing.
• Integrated Computer Designed & Reinforced Container - protection from vibration and impact.

 

[Gromett]

From their spec:-

I read all that. The sealed bit maintenance free suggests it is is VRLA and I have never seen that in anything except AGM batteries.

 

[Gromett]

Lead acid batteries with lids so you can top them up is king for leisure in my opinion

Whether they are the easiest to maintain is a different answer lol

Having had both, I found that it is pretty much of a muchness to be honest. If you keep on top of the maintenance of a flooded you can make them last as long as a maintenance free/sealed. However people rarely do.

How you treat your batteries and the quality (amount of lead) tends to dictate lifespan more accurately in my experience.

This bit is not aimed at you Eddie. But my experience is from my original trade as an electrician where part of my job was maintaining the battery back up system for a hospital and the related generator set. Then handling and abusing heavy duty UPS systems for data centres. Then 8 years fulltiming which tends to put a lot of prolonged stresses on a battery bank. I have used flooded and AGM. In practically every case the AGM's have proven to be better than flooded. But that is just my experience in my use cases.

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[eddie]

Everything you need to know, from a man who knows more than most

 

[eddie]

Having had both, I found that it is pretty much of a muchness to be honest. If you keep on top of the maintenance of a flooded you can make them last as long as a maintenance free/sealed. However people rarely do.

How you treat your batteries and the quality (amount of lead) tends to dictate lifespan more accurately in my experience.

This bit is not aimed at you Eddie. But my experience is from my original trade as an electrician where part of my job was maintaining the battery back up system for a hospital and the related generator set. Then handling and abusing heavy duty UPS systems for data centres. Then 8 years fulltiming which tends to put a lot of prolonged stresses on a battery bank. I have used flooded and AGM. In practically every case the AGM's have proven to be better than flooded. But that is just my experience in my use cases.

I would disagree, but, factor out NHS budgets, and lead acid is so much cheaper, although I agree for some, too much hassle to bother checking

Mind you, for those of you with too much money, we do now stock Litium Ion batteries at £1500 each!

 

[Lenny HB]

Everything you need to know, from a man who knows more than most

He knows a fair bit but he has a biased attitude against Gel's, and many of us Funsters who have used Gel's know just how good they are, they may not suit everyone but a lot of us are happy with them.

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[eddie]

He knows a fair bit but he has a biased attitude against Gel's, and many of us Funsters who have used Gel's know just how good they are, they may not suit everyone but a lot of us are happy with them.

He has a challenge out to any battery manufacturer that their batteries will not stand up to their claims lol

Of course designing and manufacturing superb battery chargers he has to test, to death, batteries all the time.

 

[Gromett]

Everything you need to know, from a man who knows more than most

I agree with everything he says. However he did miss out on some information on the AGM batteries. He didn't mention VRLA which stands for valve regulated lead acid. They have a little safety valve to allow gassing in extreme cases, however it also has a catalyst in the neck of the valve which promotes the combining of free hydrogen and oxygen back to water. This allows a higher rate of charge than the old school non VRLA AGM's. The other advantage of AGM is that the Glass Matt used helps reduce the rate at which the lead migrates from the plates to the bottom of the battery

I also agree all things being equal then Traction batteries are best. However given a choice between 4 cheap batteries or 2 expensive traction batteries I would be tempted to go for the 4 cheap ones. If you have 4 x 125AH cheap ones to give you 500Ah and use 100Ah. You have discharged them by 20%. If you take 100AH out of 2 x 125AH traction batteries (250AH) you will have discharged them by 40%. Under this situation the cheap ones will last longer. You can also all thing being equal charge the bigger bank at a higher rate. The other thing to consider is your discharge rate. If you are using an inverter regularly then Traction batteries are probably the best even if you can't afford 4.

There are far too many variable to say one battery is best. For my use cases, which is a good solar panel, a relatively benign discharge rate with no inverter usage. Then AGM's are best for me.

 

[Gromett]

He knows a fair bit but he has a biased attitude against Gel's, and many of us Funsters who have used Gel's know just how good they are, they may not suit everyone but a lot of us are happy with them.

I am biased against Gels as well. They don't handle abuse as well and if charged to fast just once form bubbles in the gel which tends not to recover. Unless you absolutely MUST have a battery that won't leak then Gels are pointless. I agree with him on this one.

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[Badknee]

As I said I am going to contact Sargent before I do anything but I am liking the Trojan batteries and may go for those.
Thanks for all your input guys.

 

[Kool Kroozer]

As I said I am going to contact Sargent before I do anything but I am liking the Trojan batteries and may go for those.
Thanks for all your input guys.

See what you done Badknee, ask a simple question an ya get bombarded with overloaded information I started reading this thread an wish i hadnt

 

[TheCaller]

Everything you need to know, from a man who knows more than most

In that video, Charles Sterling is talking specifically about narrowboats. When it comes to motorhomes & campervans, there are additional considerations.

Firstly, the majority of motorhomes based on recent van running gear have the starter battery under the floor in the habitation area. It's in a well under the passenger's feet separated only by a piece of rubber/plastic flooring. Secondly, many van conversions have one or two habitation batteries under the driver's or passenger's seat. Because the batteries originally supplied are sealed, the space they occupy isn't. In those situations, you cannot dismiss the safety advantages of both AGM & gel in the way that Charles quite reasonably does for narrowboats. In most cases, moving the batteries' location is either impractical or uneconomic.

I haven't checked, but I also suspect it may be difficult to get Trojans (or equivalent) in a size that will physically fit into the under seat space.

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[eddie]

The most salient fact is there is no such thing as a leisure battery

 

[JockandRita]

In that video, Charles Sterling is talking specifically about narrowboats. When it comes to motorhomes & campervans, there are additional considerations.

Firstly, the majority of motorhomes based on recent van running gear have the starter battery under the floor in the habitation area. It's in a well under the passenger's feet separated only by a piece of rubber/plastic flooring. Secondly, many van conversions have one or two habitation batteries under the driver's or passenger's seat. Because the batteries originally supplied are sealed, the space they occupy isn't. In those situations, you cannot dismiss the safety advantages of both AGM & gel in the way that Charles quite reasonably does for narrowboats. In most cases, moving the batteries' location is either impractical or uneconomic.

I haven't checked, but I also suspect it may be difficult to get Trojans (or equivalent) in a size that will physically fit into the under seat space.

I do appreciate what you are saying Simon, and if our batteries were in that "awkward to get to" under the seat/s position, I would have to go with gel. I couldn't be bothered with all that faffing around, in order to check fluid levels, and even with sealed lead acid, I believe a vent pipe still needs to be functional.
However, our batteries and in a former external gas locker, and our 2 x T-105s take up less room than the previous 1 x 230A single Elecsol, or the 2 x 90A Elecols before that (a third was in the adjacent covered and vented footwell).
For me, these have been the best batteries we have ever used for leisure purposes, in almost 30 years of camping.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[maxi77]

In that video, Charles Sterling is talking specifically about narrowboats. When it comes to motorhomes & campervans, there are additional considerations.

Firstly, the majority of motorhomes based on recent van running gear have the starter battery under the floor in the habitation area. It's in a well under the passenger's feet separated only by a piece of rubber/plastic flooring. Secondly, many van conversions have one or two habitation batteries under the driver's or passenger's seat. Because the batteries originally supplied are sealed, the space they occupy isn't. In those situations, you cannot dismiss the safety advantages of both AGM & gel in the way that Charles quite reasonably does for narrowboats. In most cases, moving the batteries' location is either impractical or uneconomic.

I haven't checked, but I also suspect it may be difficult to get Trojans (or equivalent) in a size that will physically fit into the under seat space.

I think you missed his points completely, yes he was addressing narrow boats, but his recommendations were not based on the vehicle but the use. A full timer spending long periods of grid would be better with the Trojans, whilst the same fulltimer moving from site to site with hook up would be fine with the 'leisure ' battery with some maintenance. His key point really was that in most cases Gel and AGM used in leisure applications give little benefit for the extra premium charged. As far as I am aware he has held the opinion for many years that wet acid gives the best amp for the buck. Considering he has made a very good business out of maximising the charging performance of 'house' batteries, he may have a point.

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