Motorhome for skiing and biking (1 Viewer)

Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
My partner and I are looking for a motorhome to support our skiing and mountain biking habits. Our aim is to be able to go for a month or so at a time, chase powder and visit smaller ski resorts which are worth a day or two in the right conditions, but which you'd otherwise pass by. Also an opportunity to venture further afield; for example Eastern Europe.

There aren't many winter campsites, but every lift station has a large parking lot so we'd plan on spending much of our time off-grid, depending where we are.


We briefly tried a motorhome in the alps which gave some ideas as to what we need and what we don't:
  • Probably Class A
  • Good insulation - internal water tanks, pipework etc.
  • Drop-down double bed above the cab which we can leave made up
  • It'd be handy to have the option of one or two single beds for very occasional use
  • Hanging storage for damp ski gear and clothes
  • Storage for gear; boots, bikes? and the usual camping stuff
  • Decent living area as we'll be spending a lot of time there in winter
  • Space around the door is helpful to bend over and get boots on
  • Layout; preferably shower and toilet at the back, kitchen in the centre
  • Secondhand, possibly an older model which we can add power, insulation etc

I'll visit the show at the NEC this week to see what current models look like, and check out some accessories.

One which looks suitable is the Frankia I 620. Older Hymers such as the B544 would suit but seem to have a bad rap for rotting floors behind the rear wheels.

Winterized.eu have written about using a motorhome for skiing and suggest:
Eura Mobil Activa One 570 HS: https://en.euramobil.de/index.php?id=2192
Adria Coral XL :
Moto-Trek Euro Treka (would be a custom build to internalise water tanks):
Benimar Mileo: or (bigger garage)

As this is our first motorhome, we'll probably buy an older secondhand model from the EU and prefer not to spend too much on the vehicle, leaving more for upgrades.

Can you suggest any others? Or tell me what I've missed. :)
 
Feb 13, 2013
999
1,089
Edinburgh
Funster No
24,680
MH
Rapido 881F
Exp
Since 2015
We do exactly as you want to do with a Rapido 881F A class. It is not double floor but we haven't found that a problem as we tend to go away in March/April. We do stay off grid in Aires and campsites. When we change we will go for a double floor but all the essential pipe work etc is inside and we just leave the heating on low. We have not had a problem yet.

You would be surprised how many winter campsites there are if you hunt about that are close to the smaller resorts.

We also use the summer to check out potential ski areas by cycling up to the resort and checking out areas to stay. Not everyon's idea of fun I know, but it ticks our boxes!
 

Paddywack

Free Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,211
2,281
Neasham, Co Durham
Funster No
28,587
MH
Hymer ExsisT588
Don't go anywhere near a Moto-Trek, speaking from experience what you order and what you receive, and the timescale in which you get it, once they have your deposit it's one disappointment after another

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Lenny HB

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 18, 2007
54,013
152,250
On the coast in West Sussex
Funster No
658
MH
Hymer B678 DL
Exp
Since 2008 & many years tugging
:welco:
Older Hymers such as the B544 would suit but seem to have a bad rap for rotting floors behind the rear wheels.
Most vans over 7 or 8 years old have wooden floor and can suffer the same fate, only tends to be a problem on quite old Hymer's. Most newer vans have a GRP floor.
 

funflair

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 11, 2013
19,508
31,023
Guisborough
Funster No
29,351
MH
MORELO palace
Exp
since 2012
:welco:

Most vans over 7 or 8 years old have wooden floor and can suffer the same fate, only tends to be a problem on quite old Hymer's. Most newer vans have a GRP floor.
That’s why I suggested the Flair, no wood(y)

Martin
 
OP
OP
John Russell
Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
Thanks for the help and advice. I'll take a look at these at the NEC.

Rapido - I'm pretty sure March would be fine but we always go skiing in January. This year it was often below -10C in the valleys at night and higher up is even lower. I'd rather avoid potential problems with the insulation and water.

Burstner Argos looks great - a couple on Autotrader around £27k, 2003 / 31k mi or 2004 / 60k mi. - but includes a rear bedroom and is bigger than I think we need.

Hymer - 8 yo Hymers are quite pricey.

I like Martin's suggestion of the Flair; the one he suggests is very well-specc'ed, but a bit over budget, and includes a rear bedroom. Though if it goes well we might be looking for a larger one in a year or two, so perhaps it's better to bite the bullet now.

I spotted a 1996 / 160k km Flair in Germany: Broken Link Removed
which has kitchen at the back. The interior looks tired, but it's a private sale asking £14,600. Would need to spend a bit tidying it up and drive it for a couple of years without losing much assuming the mechanicals are OK.

There are a couple of 1999 / 160k km Frankia I 620s for around £16,400 from dealers: Broken Link Removed
and Broken Link Removed

I could pay more for newer / lower mileage but that's what's available now.

What do you think?
 

Southdowners

Free Member
May 7, 2015
3,358
25,320
West Sussex
Funster No
36,248
MH
Concorde Charisma
Exp
Since May 2015
Hi,

Here’s my thoughts.... As you want to go skiing I’d recommend buying a fully winterised vehicle. Niesmann & Bischoff are owned by Hymer and are their top of the range vehicles, so are better than hymer vehicles themselves. The Flair you linked to looks good value. It’s relatively cheap to freshen up the decor and you’d have a lovely classic vehicle. I would advise that you don’t buy a vehicle on which you hope to add insulation. The tanks etc need to be within double floors to be fully winterised so I doubt it would be possible.

We’ve owned two Niesmanns and can recommend them for build quality and winterisation. You mention that you’re going to the NEC so you’ll be able to get a good idea of the quality of various models.

Hope this helps :)
 

Northernraider

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 30, 2017
27,684
180,470
On the sofa ....
Funster No
49,727
MH
Mobilvetta eurayacht
Exp
On and off since 95
Thanks for the help and advice. I'll take a look at these at the NEC.

Rapido - I'm pretty sure March would be fine but we always go skiing in January. This year it was often below -10C in the valleys at night and higher up is even lower. I'd rather avoid potential problems with the insulation and water.

Burstner Argos looks great - a couple on Autotrader around £27k, 2003 / 31k mi or 2004 / 60k mi. - but includes a rear bedroom and is bigger than I think we need.

Hymer - 8 yo Hymers are quite pricey.

I like Martin's suggestion of the Flair; the one he suggests is very well-specc'ed, but a bit over budget, and includes a rear bedroom. Though if it goes well we might be looking for a larger one in a year or two, so perhaps it's better to bite the bullet now.

I spotted a 1996 / 160k km Flair in Germany: Broken Link Removed
which has kitchen at the back. The interior looks tired, but it's a private sale asking £14,600. Would need to spend a bit tidying it up and drive it for a couple of years without losing much assuming the mechanicals are OK.

There are a couple of 1999 / 160k km Frankia I 620s for around £16,400 from dealers: Broken Link Removed
and Broken Link Removed

I could pay more for newer / lower mileage but that's what's available now.

What do you think?
Forget AutoTrader
There's a 2003 burstner argos on eBay 48000 miles and a buy it now price £19995
Double floor , alde heating, dedicated ski lockers huge garage etc , one of the best vans for winter use.
Granted it may be big , but if you gotta carry skis, bikes , skiing clothing etc then you need space and payload. Id have thought a hymer 544 would have been too small

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

funflair

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 11, 2013
19,508
31,023
Guisborough
Funster No
29,351
MH
MORELO palace
Exp
since 2012
Thanks for the help and advice. I'll take a look at these at the NEC.

I like Martin's suggestion of the Flair; the one he suggests is very well-specc'ed, but a bit over budget, and includes a rear bedroom. Though if it goes well we might be looking for a larger one in a year or two, so perhaps it's better to bite the bullet now.

I spotted a 1996 / 160k km Flair in Germany: Broken Link Removed
which has kitchen at the back. The interior looks tired, but it's a private sale asking £14,600. Would need to spend a bit tidying it up and drive it for a couple of years without losing much assuming the mechanicals are OK.

There are a couple of 1999 / 160k km Frankia I 620s for around £16,400 from dealers: Broken Link Removed
and Broken Link Removed

I could pay more for newer / lower mileage but that's what's available now.

What do you think?

I thought that you would want a garage for your toys(y) in which case you get a bed above it, the older Flair you link to in Germany is on a Front Wheel Drive Fiat, the one I linked is rear wheel drive IVECO and my guess is that it will have a diff lock as well so great in the snow. Up to 2005 build on the Flair you had a great choice of chassis, FWD fiat on single or tandem axle, rear wheel drive Merc Sprinter or IVECO 2.8 or 3.0 litre.

We bought one 7 years ago just to see if we liked motorhomes and intended to then get something new if we did, 7 years later we have the same van and find it hard to replace even with all the nice new stuff that there is about;)

Martin
 

Jenben

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 19, 2015
2,245
208,137
Uk
Funster No
39,638
MH
Hymer Exsis I
Exp
Since 2007
We have an A class Hymer with a garage where we carry our bikes and ski gear.

Be careful in your search,a manufacturer may claim their van to be winterised but it might be a long way from what you need to be comfortable in a ski resort !

We have just come back from a 6 week ski trip, you need insulated heated tanks preferably in a double floor or inside the van.

Be aware in the mountains if you aren’t on hook up you will quickly get through your gas as it’s important to keep the pipes warm at all times.

There is a fb page for motorhome skiers that is a good resource as well as this great site.
 

PhilG

Free Member
Mar 8, 2016
1,582
4,093
leicester
Funster No
41,924
MH
euramobil 810
Exp
since birth
My Euramobil A class has all of that , but for a supposedly Winterised van, it drop its water for fun when it gets cold.
 

munkey_bwy

Free Member
May 17, 2018
67
45
Holbeach
Funster No
53,934
MH
Rapid 690 low profile
Exp
Since 2007
I can vouch for my 2010 Rapido 690, even though its the wrong layout it survived happily down to -16.4 in the winter of 2012. It did have the heating running constantly though. You have to make sure that the auto dump valve on the water doesn't get the chance to go off though (4 degrees C).
 
Apr 19, 2008
1,948
2,927
Kent coast Hythe
Funster No
2,211
MH
Rapido fiat based
Exp
brought first van 16 yrs ago
I have been away on many a ski trip in my 1996 Hymer 534 . Yes there are many issues to cover re gas water taps freezing ect ect all these you are able to tackle if the occasion arises
Take a look at the ski section on the forum to get a flavour of where to stay. On your first venture you may be surprised, at present I am in Samoens 20c during the day temp drops at night but nothing frightening.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
OP
John Russell
Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
All good advice - agree about the need for a vehicle which is properly winterised. I'll avoid the Euramobil and similar - thanks for the tips.

@Jenben Hope that's going to be us next year! :) Out of interest, how fast were you using LPG? Gas? What's your battery setup and how long does it last? Or were you driving frequently?

I take Martin's points about the bodywork and storage space. My preference would have been a smaller unit with a garage using the space above for something other than a second bed, but that doesn't seem to be available. A diff lock might be a plus, although I'd expect snow tyres and chains to get up most things.

Has anyone got any thoughts on the Fiat chassis vs Iveco vs Merc? I have an old Merc and whilst the bodywork is unprintably awful the engine just keeps on going. Sorting out the interior of an old unit should be straightforward, upgrade the electrics, fit a few of the bells and whistles it lacks could give quite a nice unit for not too much money if the foundations are good. Any ideas on longevity of these chassis?

Btw Gumtree / Motorhome Depot sold a Flair 7100i 2002 / 80k mi, asking price £24k - https://www.gumtree.com/p/campervan...100i-sold/1314987081?utm_source=newsnow.co.uk - less well-specc'ed than the one Martin mentioned, but quite a lot less money.

The Burstner Argos is huge... it seems to be less expensive for it's size than the NB units... the NB looks like it might be a better layout, we really don't need six beds, seats etc. I'd far rather have a bit more kitchen, open space, wardrobe etc. Better take a look at some... Friday day trip to the NEC.
 

two

Aug 4, 2011
4,911
4,582
West Midlands
Funster No
17,624
MH
A-Class Fiat
Welcome!

Most of the continental vans are designed for winter use. I'd avoid Brit vans. I'd also avoid FWD. Buying (LHD) from Europe is probably a good idea (more choice, cheaper). Check about importing. You'll need a C1 licence and as much payload as possible. For four, get twin singles over the garage. A diesel heater might be a bonus. Expect to change after a couple of years.
 
OP
OP
John Russell
Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
@B-well 20C... not sure whether that's good or bad. Is the snow holding up?

When we were there last month it was way below freezing, Chamonix also and Braemar was reporting -12C overnight.

It only goes to show the weather's unpredictable.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
John Russell
Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
@two Sounds like you've been spending time in the Alps in winter.

Any thoughts on battery capacity and topping them up off-grid?

It's for two, and once in a while one or two adult kids.

LHD yes, I forgot to mention that. Diesel heater - fine, but Alde heating which I'd prefer to blown air is LPG.

As much payload as possible? Is that for kit? There was a garage but not much interior storage in the unit we tried.

Why would we change after a couple of years?
 
Last edited:

funflair

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 11, 2013
19,508
31,023
Guisborough
Funster No
29,351
MH
MORELO palace
Exp
since 2012
@two Sounds like you've been spent time in the Alps in winter.

Any thoughts on battery capacity and topping them up off-grid?

It's for two, and once in a while one or two adult kids.

LHD yes, I forgot to mention that. Diesel heater - fine, but Alde heating which I'd prefer to blown air is LPG.

As much payload as possible? Is that for kit? There was a garage but not much interior storage in the unit we tried.

Why would we change after a couple of years?
You will only change in a couple of years if you get it wrong this time around.

Martin

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Jenben

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 19, 2015
2,245
208,137
Uk
Funster No
39,638
MH
Hymer Exsis I
Exp
Since 2007
@Jenben Hope that's going to be us next year! :) Out of interest, how fast were you using LPG? Gas? What's your battery setup and how long does it last? Or were you driving frequently?

Most important advice is to ALWAYS leave the heating on - at the low temps even on fully winterised vans only work if the hot air is piped around all the tanks and pipes.

This year the aire we were staying at had 16A hookup so we weren’t using much gas:)
In these conditions we leave the heating on electric set to 18-20c. It takes a while at first to get to temp as it’s only 2kw on electric, but once going it’s fine and just ticks over quietly (assuming you’ve fitted silver screens and add insulation to the other windows overnight - use old foam camping mats cut to size).

Previous experience in -15c overnight -5c daytime temps is 2x11kg bottles last around 7-10 days if purely using gas - though you’ll use a lot more if it’s very low temps during the day as well. In these circumstances we set the heating to 15c if we’re out or overnight, and 18-20c if we’re in.

We have 2x95ah AGM batteries with a 150w solar panel. It’s a bit difficult to gauge how long they last as it depends on lots of things. They safely last us a couple of days if there’s no solar input and we limit lighting/tv use and keep heating (Truma gas) on full time. If it’s sunny though we can last a lot longer. A good battery monitor is really useful.

Without hookup it gets a bit tense if you’re going to bed with the batteries looking a bit low. Lots of people we’ve met have woken up to a very cold frozen van...
If you intend to stay in one place for a while it’s probably best to have occasional access to hookup (even if it’s only 2-4 amps) or a generator to keep the battery’s charged as you can’t really risk losing your heating overnight.....

Btw people we know using gas Alde or Truma Diesel seem to find they use a bit more battery power than Truma Gas. Btw The latest digitally controlled Truma Gas setup is very good - Alde is only really needed if you’re going to a really big van I think.
 
Feb 13, 2013
999
1,089
Edinburgh
Funster No
24,680
MH
Rapido 881F
Exp
Since 2015
In some of the Aires and sites you can buy external gas bottles but you need to have a mechanism for connecting the external gas supply, especially if you have an LPG system, if on an extended stay.

There are a number of ways to do this either high pressure or low pressure.

If using an LPG system you need to keep your eye on where you can get LPG, the app myLPG.eu, is your friend here. It is all doable with a little thought!
 

two

Aug 4, 2011
4,911
4,582
West Midlands
Funster No
17,624
MH
A-Class Fiat
@JR

AFAIK it’s not difficult to get low current EHU = enough to keep batteries going but not to supplement cooking. A cable splitter may be useful (and a reason for being careful about how much you use).

I’d not worry too much about Alde v Truma, they each have benefits although I’d prefer Alde if there was a choice. A few models have a supplementary diesel heater. I mention that because it’s “comforting” to have a back-up if the gas or main heater should fail. I had a Euromobil which had two blown air heaters (6kW & 4kW blown air) and were very good at getting it heated up quickly. Another step you should take is to get external covers for front screen. They will reduce heat loss and stop internal condensation. Expect to use plenty of gas but, if you’re surrounded by others, you may get help sourcing a refill.

As mentioned, battery capacity is difficult to determine, especially if the batteries are not new, because there are so many variables. Their capacity will be less when cold, too.

Payload is a common problem, especially with additional passengers. You can never have enough. I admire the detail in your planning but, in my life, I’ve never got it right first time and requirements can change. That’s why I suggest you purchase with the need to make later corrections.
 

Southdowners

Free Member
May 7, 2015
3,358
25,320
West Sussex
Funster No
36,248
MH
Concorde Charisma
Exp
Since May 2015
All good advice - agree about the need for a vehicle which is properly winterised. I'll avoid the Euramobil and similar - thanks for the tips.

@Jenben
I take Martin's points about the bodywork and storage space. My preference would have been a smaller unit with a garage using the space above for something other than a second bed, but that doesn't seem to be available.

You can get vehicles without the overhead drop down bed. We have one which has overhead lockers where the bed would have been. Alternatively, if you buy one with the overhead bed, you can take the mattress out and use the bed for storage. We did this on our previous vehicles and it works well using flat plastic storage boxes (the sort you’d use under a bed).

Whatever vehicle you choose make sure you check the amount of payload you’d have. Some are woefully inadequate.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

haganap

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2007
12,787
26,766
planet earth
Funster No
974
MH
Niesman+Bischoff 79e
Exp
I'm an oldbie MH number 10
I have been skiing in a motorhome since 2005 with and with out kids. In fact as I write this we are readying the van for our trip to Italy and Austria. We have been in temps that are as low as -30 and also take two big dogs. I am also a keen cyclist although on the road and not the trails so here is my experience.

Rollerteam- great budget van, no good for what you want.
Adria- well winterised, does a great job and cheaper than other marque brands.
Bessacarr- Great van been right down in sub zero temps and froze to death.
Burstner 820I (not mine but friends of ours (froze)
Chasson (not mine but on our trip with us like above) diesel heater, rear wheel drive so good in the snow and stayed warm. but, to small for us.
Frankia (not ours but as above) decent van good at staying warm but not as classy or in the same league as the N&B in my opinion.
Rapido A class top of the range on a Merc- Excellent in the snow for driving being rear wheel drive, but cold and not as good in the winter temps as it could be.
Niesman & Bischoff Arto 79 on a tag axle. I don't say this lightly enough, this is an excellent ski bus and a good size garage makes it really useable. I probably would not have gone tag axle and being front wheel drive is not as good as others driving in the snow, but with snow tyres it's another animal. I kid you not that this van is so warm that unlike @Jenben I have to turn the heating off in the day or the dogs would die from the heat. Been down to -25 with no issues at all and once it gets warm it stays warm. It uses hardly any gas because of its superb insulation. I may consider a Flair in the future as it's rear wheel drive but to be honest, I think its a bit taller as well and just love the look of our arto. It does everything that I need but also sucks money up at the tolls because of the extra wheels.
hope this helps.
 

funflair

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 11, 2013
19,508
31,023
Guisborough
Funster No
29,351
MH
MORELO palace
Exp
since 2012
I have been skiing in a motorhome since 2005 with and with out kids. In fact as I write this we are readying the van for our trip to Italy and Austria. We have been in temps that are as low as -30 and also take two big dogs. I am also a keen cyclist although on the road and not the trails so here is my experience.

Rollerteam- great budget van, no good for what you want.
Adria- well winterised, does a great job and cheaper than other marque brands.
Bessacarr- Great van been right down in sub zero temps and froze to death.
Burstner 820I (not mine but friends of ours (froze)
Chasson (not mine but on our trip with us like above) diesel heater, rear wheel drive so good in the snow and stayed warm. but, to small for us.
Frankia (not ours but as above) decent van good at staying warm but not as classy or in the same league as the N&B in my opinion.
Rapido A class top of the range on a Merc- Excellent in the snow for driving being rear wheel drive, but cold and not as good in the winter temps as it could be.
Niesman & Bischoff Arto 79 on a tag axle. I don't say this lightly enough, this is an excellent ski bus and a good size garage makes it really useable. I probably would not have gone tag axle and being front wheel drive is not as good as others driving in the snow, but with snow tyres it's another animal. I kid you not that this van is so warm that unlike @Jenben I have to turn the heating off in the day or the dogs would die from the heat. Been down to -25 with no issues at all and once it gets warm it stays warm. It uses hardly any gas because of its superb insulation. I may consider a Flair in the future as it's rear wheel drive but to be honest, I think its a bit taller as well and just love the look of our arto. It does everything that I need but also sucks money up at the tolls because of the extra wheels.
hope this helps.
Got to give that a (y) Paul but just for clarity and the OP's benefit it is the extra axle that kills you at the tolls a RWD would have the same number of wheels but one less axle so one toll group lower.

Martin
 
Apr 19, 2008
1,948
2,927
Kent coast Hythe
Funster No
2,211
MH
Rapido fiat based
Exp
brought first van 16 yrs ago
I have been skiing in a motorhome since 2005 with and with out kids. In fact as I write this we are readying the van for our trip to Italy and Austria. We have been in temps that are as low as -30 and also take two big dogs. I am also a keen cyclist although on the road and not the trails so here is my experience.



Rollerteam- great budget van, no good for what you want.
- well winterised, does a great job and cheaper than other marque brands.
Bessacarr- Great van been right down in sub zero temps and froze to death.
Burstner 820I (not mine but friends of ours (froze)
Chasson (not mine but on our trip with us like above) diesel heater, rear wheel drive so good in the snow and stayed warm. but, to small for us.
Frankia (not ours but as above) decent van good at staying warm but not as classy or in the same league as the N&B in my opinion.
Rapido A class top of the range on a Merc- Excellent in the snow for driving being rear wheel drive, but cold and not as good in the winter temps as it could be.
Niesman & Bischoff Arto 79 on a tag axle. I don't say this lightly enough, this is an excellent ski bus and a good size garage makes it really useable. I probably would not have gone tag axle and being front wheel drive is not as good as others driving in the snow, but with snow tyres it's another animal. I kid you not that this van is so warm that unlike @Jenben I have to turn the heating off in the day or the dogs would die from the heat. Been down to -25 with no issues at all and once it gets warm it stays warm. It uses hardly any gas because of its superb insulation. I may consider a Flair in the future as it's rear wheel drive but to be honest, I think its a bit taller as well and just love the look of our arto. It does everything that I need but also sucks money up at the tolls because of the extra wheels.
hope this helps.

This is all round a good review, well worth transferring to the ski section. New ski members may benefit.
 
OP
OP
John Russell
Feb 18, 2019
311
210
East Anglia, UK
Funster No
58,620
MH
N&B Clou Liner 2001
Exp
0
@martin You've all pointed out quite a few pitfalls so we'll avoid those.

@Jenben @clanjones Thanks for the helpful info. @haganap Great list thanks, just what I was looking for.

Looks like an N&B Flair on Iveco is the way to go. Probably around 2000 to keep within budget.

Any thoughts on prices? Were there any major changes around this time I should be aware of?

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top