MOT and 3.5T plus motorhomes with garage (1 Viewer)

[dave newell]

it is a neccasery part of my 'living' equipment as much as my walking stick therefore it cannot be classed as goods and if it were would 'mobility' scooter also be...since they are used for the same purpose/

Do you need the scooter to be able to live in the 'van? No you don't, you might need it for getting about but that does not make it necessary for the accomodation of the vehicle therefore VOSA would consider it goods or burden. I would guess the same applies to mobility scooters if carried in a "garage" area.

D.

 

[Larrynwin]

Been following this thread and it is typical of JOBSWORTH BRITAIN , lets be negative when interpreting a complex set of rules, lets make it bloody awkward.
Many on this site are critical about the Spanish police and their slant on A Frames , but it looks like we in this country could be similarly difficult over ambiguous laws which appear to be designed to cause confusion :Angry:

 

[Jaws]

Ok..............

Just returned from the land that is VOSA

As luck would have it today was the last day of a course for MOT inspectors and not only was the usual instructor there but also a couple of the guys who do roadside inspections..

Dave and co, your information is spot on.. :thanks: :thumb:

BUT!!

It seems I asked the wrong questions..... guide lines out on the road are very different to those at the testing station !

Once the MOT has been passed and you are out on the road ( apparently ) things are slightly different..

The rules remain the same BUT a VOSA roadside inspector would have to prove conclusively that the bike/scooter whatever is not something required by you in every day living.
As roadside spot checks are aimed primarily at finding faulty vehicles and this sort of thing falls outside the days remit they would not be interested, though they are likely to take extra care when weighing the vehicle to make sure you are within your axle weights

To that end the conclusion drawn by all present was 'dont worry about it' once you have left the MOT station.

I then went on to ask, as my unit is 4.1 tonnes, are the rules different
No... the same. At time of test the only things you should have in the van is stuff used for living. As long as it is a motorhome it is a class 4 MOT.. With a bike in the back it is a class 5 or 7

I then pushed my luck and asked one last question..
What if the van has a motorcycle rack on the back ?
Not an issue at all. Apart from falling under the recent rule changes concerning tow bars.

Apparently the difference is that your motorhome becomes a 'Living Van' ( not a commercial vehicle as I would have expected )
A Living Van is something used by road gangs, circus folk etc etc and has a wonderfully complicated set of rules all to its self !

I hope all this is of help and must thank Dave for bringing it up in the first place

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[Forestboy]

Been following this thread and it is typical of JOBSWORTH BRITAIN , lets be negative when interpreting a complex set of rules, lets make it bloody awkward.
Many on this site are critical about the Spanish police and their slant on A Frames , but it looks like we in this country could be similarly difficult over ambiguous laws which appear to be designed to cause confusion :Angry:

Absolutely right.

I'm sick to bloody death of the petty rules and regulations foisted on us by faceless bureaucrats and civil servants and the negative fate worse than death attitude that goes along with the enforcers.

Who the hell cares if a motorhome has a scooter or motorbike in the garage and what bloody business is it of anyone else.

I for one will continue to carry a motorcycle either in a garage or on a trailer if I decide to and ******s to the lot of em:Angry:

 

[ips]

I have read this thread with great interest and taken particular note of the links provided with info from DVLA etc. my conclusion is that the carrying of scooters in a MH garage is indeed a VERY grey area, however I fail to see how anyone could consider that a scooter used for pleasure could be construde as "goods" or "for reward" or any other such term.

I think that the powers that be have deliberatley left it so open to interpretation so they can enforce there interpretation on anyone who trys to bend the rules to there benefit.

 

[Geo]

Absolutely right.

I'm sick to bloody death of the petty rules and regulations foisted on us by faceless bureaucrats and civil servants and the negative fate worse than death attitude that goes along with the enforcers.

Who the hell cares if a motorhome has a scooter or motorbike in the garage and what bloody business is it of anyone else.

I for one will continue to carry a motorcycle either in a garage or on a trailer if I decide to and ******s to the lot of em:Angry:

I suppose Mot testers might fall into that category Ror
When you think my Job,Lively hood and Business all depend on the decisions I make
It becomes less of a pain in the a**e, and much more a priority to get it right irespective of how stupid the rules seem
you have no idea just how many blind eyes are used during a test, all at risk to testers for the benefit of you the customer, its possible if the ules are applied rigidly to refuse to test 8 out of ten vehicles on numerous grounds Testers do try to apply common sense most of the time, but under severe penalty if caught
We of course work to the book, why should I put my business at risk to save you the trouble of removing your toys,

Ref vosa comments to Bike rack
I quote the regs, "built or adapted to carry"oh: you decide, I dont want to, and VOSA seem incapable of making the same decision twice

I do suspect that the first time a guy looses his ticket over these rules you wont get a Motorhome through a test ever again
Geo

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[Jaws]

100% with you on that George

Nowadays pretty much all my business and business's fall within the rules of distance selling (with quite a large nod towards the data protection act )..

I have to stick to the rules myself so fully understand where you are coming from

 

[tink]

The answer is simples get yourself a Transit put your bike/scooter on the back then connect to your 26' 5ver & off you go,no need for a toad, no probs with M.O.T,carry what you want on a Transit. & 5ver is under 3.5T so no M.O.T required.:Cool::thumb:
Link Removed

 

[Forestboy]

I suppose Mot testers might fall into that category Ror

Sorry Geo wasn't having a pop at you mate, having run my own business for 29 yrs I know exactly what you go through and threat of losing your livelihood if you fail to comply. In fact I got so fed up of arguing about just this kind of nonsense it became a contributing factor in deciding to sell up and opt out.

My problem is who thinks up all these petty stupid regulations and why, what happened to freedom of choice and when did it disappear and who gives these faceless bureaucrats the right to interfere with every daily aspect of our lives. Bloody Big Brother gone mad:Sad:

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[wireman]

well in that case everything that is in the van is 'goods or burden'. You don't need pots and pans to live in the van (you only need them to cook food in) and you don't need to cook in the van, television..not needed, radio...not needed...sat nav... not needed...books...not needed....computer...not needed....clothes...not needed (especially in the van) and so on. Do you actually need water from a tank...no you could get it from the tap outside so the water tank has to go.....waste water tank....not needed (its NOT NEEDED TO LIVE).

I might need some of these things but they are not needed in respect of living in the van. This is how stupid the law is in many respects.

I'd love a tester to fail a van with a mobility scooter in the garage......I get a bucket of popcorn and some beer, pull up a chair and watch the shit hit the fan...."The rules remain the same BUT a VOSA roadside inspector would have to prove conclusively that the bike/scooter whatever is not something required by you in every day living."

 

[hilldweller]

My problem is who thinks up all these petty stupid regulations and why

That's easy. The entrenched civil service has to do something to exist and by god they have existed for 1000 years and know how to defend their patch. First some s**t scared politician gets earache from constituent or press or both "little Johnny got run over by his dad backing the car out, what are you going to do about it ?". So Politician S. Scared, knowing he's in a marginal seat and only 200 days to an election asks C. Service for advice and the mighty machine swings into action - BINGO - we fit reversing beepers.

Then the old boy network kicks in, my "Friend" makes beepers, we'll get him as consultant. So My Friend who has a dodgy patent on a beeper that plays God Save The Queen says it's essential to get people's attention and what better than God Save The Queen.

A bit later a new law is made. All vehicles which reverse must have a beeper that plays God Save The Queen.

S. Scared is hailed as hero by his constituent "Now I know little Johnny did not die in vein, no more little Johnnies will be run over by their dad reversing when pissed, no, no, no, I don't mean pissed I mean when it's pissing down. S. Scared is my hero".

S Scared is re-elected.

My Friend is now a multimillionaire and buys a peerage.

And the faceless civil servant smile discretely, think of their pension and congratulate each other for another job well done.

 

[dave newell]

well in that case everything that is in the van is 'goods or burden'. You don't need pots and pans to live in the van (you only need them to cook food in) and you don't need to cook in the van, television..not needed, radio...not needed...sat nav... not needed...books...not needed....computer...not needed....clothes...not needed (especially in the van) and so on. Do you actually need water from a tank...no you could get it from the tap outside so the water tank has to go.....waste water tank....not needed (its NOT NEEDED TO LIVE).

I might need some of these things but they are not needed in respect of living in the van. This is how stupid the law is in many respects.

I'd love a tester to fail a van with a mobility scooter in the garage......I get a bucket of popcorn and some beer, pull up a chair and watch the shit hit the fan...."The rules remain the same BUT a VOSA roadside inspector would have to prove conclusively that the bike/scooter whatever is not something required by you in every day living."

What a silly thing to say! All you have to do is remove any items from your garage (like a scooter, pushbike, motorbike, mobility scooter etc)just prior to submitting to MOT. would you really risk a refusal to test just so that you could pull up your deck chair and get out your popcorn? No you wouldn't! You'd shout and scream and stamp your feet to the management of the garage perhaps, or you'd go to another MOT station and hope they'd be less vigilant (probably more likely).

Besides which they will not "Fail" a van for having a mobility scooter, they will just refuse to test as the presence of the scooter creates a potentially expensive and legal issue for the station. testing out of class is taken very seriously and can at the very least cost the individual tester his licence to test, the garage can also lose their testing station status and if part of a national network they too can lose the status of MOT testing stations.

Now the real question is, do ya feel lucky?.............well do Ya???????????????

D.

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[wireman]

I don't have a mobility scooter otherwise I would. I don't play the 'disabled' card as I accept that I am and try to live as normal a life as I can. However, if push came to shove, in a case of crass stupidity like this, I would indeed feel 'lucky' and would play the card.....however distasteful that may be to myself and others. I am a great believer in standing up and being counted even if it means being shot down occasionally.

This type of stupidity is why this country finds itself in the mess its in today.....and we just meekly let 'them' get away with it then complain on bulletin boards about it.

 

[dave newell]

I don't have a mobility scooter otherwise I would. I don't play the 'disabled' card as I accept that I am and try to live as normal a life as I can. However, if push came to shove, in a case of crass stupidity like this, I would indeed feel 'lucky' and would play the card.....however distasteful that may be to myself and others. I am a great believer in standing up and being counted even if it means being shot down occasionally.

This type of stupidity is why this country finds itself in the mess its in today.....and we just meekly let 'them' get away with it then complain on bulletin boards about it.

Yeah right on brother! But you did claim that your "twist 'n' go" scooter is necessary to your living in the van and I ttherefore assumed that this was your stance when it came to MOT ing your own 'van.

Hmmmm, choices, do I remove scooter and take a class four test with no questions/arguments/argy bargy or do I leave the machine in there and argue my corner then get turned away and have to go to another test centre or even a VOSA test centre for a HGV test??

Answers on the back of a used fiver to me please.

D.

 

[wireman]

Let me reply witrh a question:

Why would you need to look in the garage at all....since there are no testable bits in there and you can examine the chassis from underneath? If the garage were locked would that stop a test?

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[dave newell]

Not at all, my tester has been told (as has GEO) by a VOSA instructor that if a VOSA Examiner walks in during a test and the vehicle in question is a motorhome over 3500KGs MAM with an obvious "garage" type storage area and the VOSA guy decides to look inside and there is a scooter, pushbike, generator etc that the tester can be struck off there and then. Ergo as more testers go through the refresher course and are informed of this they are more likely to take note and look to see for themselves, my tester will certainly be checking. Now instead of arguing over the rights and wrongs of this why not just accept that its easier to remove all items from the "garage" prior to testing?

D.

 

[wireman]

How does he look inside if the garage is locked? has he a 'right' to enter an area of a vehicle that does not require his access?


Just for your info, my vehicle has always been tested as clas 7 (I think) anyway...for some reason.

and this from a motorhome dealers site....10. The MOT is not affected. All motorhomes, regardless of GVW, come into Class 4 for MOT purposes (not commercial Class 7), provided they are used only for the carriage of personal effects. Thus the standard MOT rules apply - the test is required annually from the third anniversary of first registration (in whichever country that took place). This also means, as I discovered recently, that the MOT cannot normally be done by a commercial vehicle tester who is only cleared for Class 7. You have to find a class 4 tester with large enough premises and lift.

the interesting bit is the wording......"provided they are only used for the carriage of personal effects" which would cover the scooter as it is personal effects........where are the VOSA vehicle getting their wording from? because it makes a huge difference. I would be interested where they are getting the interpratation of the law from and what the actual law states.

 

[dave newell]

I did start to type a reply but I must have hit a wrong key and its vanished. I just can't be arsed to type it all again so I'll end by saying this:

You pays your money and makes your choice!

D.

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[wireman]

and I'll end by saying to the MOT tester its a Motorcaravan and have a class 4 test done...if he refuses (on grounds I consider innapropriate) then I'll report him to the appropriate authorities as I am allowed to do and search out another who will test it for me.

Why, because you are suggesting that i break the law...if the vehicle does not pass the test with the scooter in the back then I am driving it illegally with the scooter in the back. There can be no argument about that.

 

[Geo]

Let me reply witrh a question:

Why would you need to look in the garage at all....since there are no testable bits in there and you can examine the chassis from underneath? If the garage were locked would that stop a test?

Unable to gain access to locker, Boot, petrol cap or other areas that may and probably will contain "proscribed areas"
Is a reason to refuse to test or if found locked during a test, is reason enough to stop test and charge you full fee
You dont know just how stroppy we could be
If we wernt such sensable reasonable people:Blush:

 

[buyer]

hi geo,100% with you .Its a shame other people think us loosing our licences to test motors does not mater,well it does to me because it would cost me about 100k per year +my buisiness+my home,but i suppose as long as they get there mot cert then thats all that matters(to them anyway).I am going to contact my ve on monday to get his verdict ,as after all, he is the one that will pull my licence if i am testing out of class,if he says its a living van and not a motorhome then i will not test it and anyone wanting to report me is welcome to do so.:Angry:

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[robnchris]

mot

Not at all, my tester has been told (as has GEO) by a VOSA instructor that if a VOSA Examiner walks in during a test and the vehicle in question is a motorhome over 3500KGs MAM with an obvious "garage" type storage area and the VOSA guy decides to look inside and there is a scooter, pushbike, generator etc that the tester can be struck off there and then. Ergo as more testers go through the refresher course and are informed of this they are more likely to take note and look to see for themselves, my tester will certainly be checking. Now instead of arguing over the rights and wrongs of this why not just accept that its easier to remove all items from the "garage" prior to testing?

D.

Hi Dave,

Just a question, ok so we take everything out of the garage, said vehicle passes mot.
We go home load our genny, scooter, boxes of wine etc into garage and off we go to Scotland, what happens if we are pulled over by Vosa and they look inside garage?

 

[dave newell]

I don't know RobnChris. I don't make the rules I was simply reporting what had been said to me and this has been borne out by at least one respected user of this forum who is a tester.

As I understand it VOSA roadside inspectors are more interested in whether you are within your weight limits rather than what you are carrying while Vehicle Examiners checking on testing stations are more interested in whether the testers are doing their job properly and not testing stuff that they shouldn't be.

Crazy situation? Quite possibly but them's the current rules.

D.

 

[Jaws]

And that is EXACTLY what the two roadside guys told me.
Both said it is semantics.
Whilst there should be nothing but essentials to 'live' in the 'cupboard' ( the word garage was studiously avoided ) at MOT time, once MOT had been acquired no one would be terribly interested in what was in the hole providing your axle weights were not exceeded

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[wireman]

Buyer...your attitude is much the same as the one you are complaining that I have (reading between the lines). Yes, of course whats important to me is to get a mot; do you realise how difficult it can be to get a class 4 station with a ramp big enough to take a 4 ton + motorhome? I am not advocating that it would not matter to me that you may lose your licence (I was self employed for many years; still am a director of my own Ltd company and looking to get back to part time work after 3 years layoff; so I am not approaching this from a 'laymans' attitude) but your knee jerk reaction is in complete contrast to Geo.....I am saying that its such a mess and the attitude of the testing station would make a real difference to me. Someone like Geo would mean that I would shrug my shoulders, ask him if he knew anyone and move on; with your attitude I would report you (probably) because it reads like you are the typical 'its nowt to do wiv me gove, piss off'. Thats how you are coming accross. And as a service provider thats not good. In this case I'm a 'punter' and because of that I'm always right.

However your attitude is just as poor as mine IMHO; physician, heal thysef...

 

[buyer]

wireman..you have got completely wrong ,i would bend over backwards to help anyone out of a mess.as i said in a previous post when i tried to test my self built motorhome with a garage i was told it wasn't a motorhome it was a living van and that is a completely different class of vehicle so they tested it as a goods vehicle instead as it would then be legal.that was at my local vosa hgv testing station,who i presume should know the relevant laws regarding testing ,they are also the people that granted my testers licence ,they would also be the people to remove my licence should i be found to be testing out of class.please understand us mot testers do not make the rules,we just have to do our best to see that the rules (some of which i think mad)are complied with, i know you may not believe it but i am on your side with a lot of the things you say,but our(testers)hands are tied,we are in an unfortunate position, if we fail it or refuse to test it, then the customer hates us, but if we ignore it and do what the customer would like us to do then we could get struck off .it was never my intention to annoy or upset anyone with my comments but i just wish that people would see things from our side once in a while.Also as you say finding a class 4 testing station that can handle 4 tonnes + could be quite difficult ,all you need to do is find a class 7 station,these unless i am very much mistaken can all also test class 4 's.we regularly test class 4 and 7 (about 10 per day) and also now and again we test motor homes up to a max of 5.5 tonnes(maximum for my lift). as i said hopefully on monday i will be able to get an answer from my local vehicle examiner as to weather it is legal or not to test motor homes fitted with a garage ,i will also try to find out exactly when a locker becomes a garage:thumb:

 

[dave newell]

Wireman, I just don't understand you at all. There is an issue that a motorhome with a large storage area that can carry pushbikes or motor scooters would be classed as a living van by VOSA if either were present at MOT time. The advice given by more than one MOT tester is to simply empty the large storage area of anything that might give rise to this problem. Why do you insist on arguing the point when all you have to do is leave your scooter at home on MOT day?

On the point of finding another station to test it if you were refused a test on these grounds, have you considered that the testing stations are all on line now and the results of a test or the reasons for a refusal are posted at the time of testing? You get refused a test at station A due to a scooter being present so you take it to station B just down the road, they punch in your reg No and immediately up comes a question mark over your motorhome's status. Do you really think you can find a station that will ignore the scooter and test as class four regardless, putting the tester's licence, the individual garage's licence and if that garage is part of a big chain then that chain's licence at risk? Really? Do ya?

Why not just accept that its a daft rule and leave your scooter out of the motorhome at MOT time, it is that simple!

D.

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[Geo]

Buyer
As Jaws stated earlier, to get the right answer you have to ask Vosa the right question
to mealy ask if you can test a van with a garage,I'm almost certain the answer will be yes you can.
You should maybe ask how do you tell the difference between a very large locker and a garage
also what in their opinion constitutes unnecessary goods What in their opinion make it wrong to test as a Motorhome
It will be interesting to see another Vosa answeroh:

Wireman
In the real world I would have to make a decision on the spot,
The out come most likely to occur would be
1. If your garage contained a Peugeot 50 cc squeeze and go, I would ask you to remove it so that I could test your vehicle correctly, if you refused I would politely ask you to go elsewhere

2. If your garage contained a disability scooter I would accept that it was a bona fide personal requirement and proceed to test, confident that any flack I received from Vosa would be stopped in its tracks quoting various disability and discrimination acts etc
In all my years I have refused to test only one vehicle. On Health and safety grounds
That was due to it being a flea bitten infestation of an escort that was used as a dog kennel
That particular chap took it for a full valet and re presented it for an Mot
as he has done every year with us since, with all the cars he has owned, he must love his Mutt
Valet first then test:thumb:
With a little understanding all obstacles can be over come to the general satisfaction of all concerned,
Geo

 

[Robinhood]

Pulling this together with another thread, the recent one about brake efficiency testing at MOT time, there are other possible advantages in removing everything from the locker/garage.

Where the testing station is capable of weighing the vehicle at testing time (rather than using GVW as has been suggested in the other thread), then presenting the vehicle as lightly loaded as possible makes a lot of sense, particularly the FIAT/Alko combination, for instance, is notorious for failing or only just passing the efficiency test on rear brakes.

Since the efficiency is calculated by dividing the measured braking force by the weight, removing any significant load may make all the difference between a pass or fail.

The testing station I use (not over far from GEO) does weigh the vehicle as part of brake testing, and year before last I only just made the cut - with an unloaded vehicle (After adjusting everything up in advance, last year the efficiency was only 8% and I was confused as to how I had passed, until GEO's recent post caused me to check back, and the result was annotated with 'locked' - which as GEO notes, means a pass anyway).

I also have a large locker (not a garage!:Blush, and it could contain several bikes, but of course I never put them in there.

 

[wireman]

Ok heres another one to ask to your VOSA man (who appear as usual not to actually know their arse from their elbow....)


Two vans turn up to the testing sation, identical in every way except that one has a twist and go scooter in the rear locker (NOT a garage since to be a garage there would have to be some other things to make it so) which is registered to the same owner and address as the vehicle, is taxed and tested and is the personal property of the owner of the vehicle.

The other one has exactley the same scooter exactley the same registration details as the vehicle and is the eprsonal proerty of the owner of the vehicle; the only difference is that it is carried on a trailer.


Has the second vehicle been adapted to carry goods as they would have us believe the first one has?


ga·rage / gəˈräzh; -ˈräj/
• n. 1. a building or shed for housing a motor vehicle or vehicles.
∎ an establishment that provides services and repairs for motor vehicles.
Definition of a garage:


This is why VOSA needs shutting down, it has become too big for its own boots and is now making rules up just for the sake of it. I have no objection to the MOT if its purpose is to keep unroadworthy vehicles off the road and make sure they are checked at least once a year but this is getting beyond a joke when they can decree that haqving an item of personal property in a locker is turning the vehicle into a goods vehicle.

IT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED NOW!

and before you say what are you doing about it...I am a punter and they will not listen to me; you testers however (unless they have you so scared for your licences and are ruling by fear) have their ears and have oppurtunity to make your voice heard.....

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