MIRO and payload question

[Oldgustaf]

The weight data for the motorhome we are going to collect next week states:
MIRO 3169kg
Max. user payload 326kg
Max. authorised weight 3495kg
Am I right in thinking that MIRO includes driver (say 75kg) and a full tank of fuel (1L = 1kg?). So that leaves us with 326kg for the passenger and all our clobber, plus onboard water, gas etc. Have we bought a MH with a stupidly low payload?

 

[tonka]

YES and NO.. Usually a driver and fuel is allowed for

HOWEVER.. There is no accepted standard for the MIRO and so manufacturers make it up to suit themselves.. Example my 2012 Autotrail included driver, gas, fuel and full fresh water... A few years later they just changed it and no water was included. Some include 20ltrs of water..
You need to find their definition of MIRO..

But you are right the balance is what you legally have available for everything else.. Some vans are not fit for purpose.. There is a thread on here somewhere regarding all the poor payloads..
Remember that if you add any extras like solar panel, batteries, awnings, tow bar they will all come from the payload..

This is from that manual link you posted...
The ‘Mass In Running Order’ includes the empty vehicle weight, the driver’s weight calculated at 75kg, a 90% fuel capacity, filled water tank capacity (partly reduced capacity, see technical data), 1 x 11 kg gas bottle (100% filled) and a cable reel.

 

[Oldgustaf]

Thanks. Sounds like a trip to the weigh bridge...

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Be aware that additional options also come out of that available payload where applicable (solar, tow bar, satellite etc etc)

 

[Blue Knight]

The weight data for the motorhome we are going to collect next week states:
MIRO 3169kg
Max. user payload 326kg
Max. authorised weight 3495kg
Am I right in thinking that MIRO includes driver (say 75kg) and a full tank of fuel (1L = 1kg?). So that leaves us with 326kg for the passenger and all our clobber, plus onboard water, gas etc. Have we bought a MH with a stupidly low payload?

Here we go (page 48):

Be aware that the figure you quoted does not include anything from the options list and it only applies to a 130BHP Manual unit.

By my reckoning if you've gone for a half decent spec'd van with a 150bhp auto lump and awning, solar, internal extras etc then you should have circa 150kg of usable payload for passengers, gear, water etc (If registered at 3.5T)

You really need to study the 48-page brochure as that will highlight what is extra and what weighs what.

All the best,

Andrew

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[Blue Knight]

P.S. I have not included any weight variation as per the 2012 EU Directive so if we use 2% as a basic figure and, assuming that the driver weighs no more than 75kg, then in theory you should have a realtime payload of c.80kg to use for passengers, gear, extra gas, full water, bikes, scooters etc.

If you want to tour with one passenger then you'll have to raise the van to 3.85kg just to make the van usable for tours away (excluding tow bars and scooters).

 

[Oldgustaf]

Thanks Andrew, missed that page! It's got an awning and a solar panel but only has the standard six speed manual 2.2 JTD 100 BHP. Its seemed quite lively when we test drove it. Hope it's not going to be sluggish... BTW, do you know what Dethleffs means by Storage Space: B2?

 

[Blue Knight]

Thanks Andrew, missed that page! It's got an awning and a solar panel but only has the standard six speed manual 2.2 JTD 100 BHP. Its seemed quite lively when we test drove it. Hope it's not going to be sluggish... BTW, do you know what Dethleffs means by Storage Space: B2?

Hi O,

You'll get a return of 37kg without the larger engine and gearbox so that will take you to an estimated payload figure of c.117kg.

I honesty think it would be a good idea to ask the dealer to weigh the vehicle with you and your passenger inside. You'll need to know how much water and fuel is onboard and then you can do your precise figures.

The only problem with payload figures is that you'll only know the exact figure when you are fully loaded before jumping on the scales.

All the best,

Andrew

 

[TerryL]

Have we bought a MH with a stupidly low payload?

Alright, I'm going to be brutal and say it - yes! Even with all the things folk have said above you simply don't have enough payload there to use the vehicle properly. A visit to a weighbridge will confirm that.

You're not the first and you won't be the last - but at least you now know and are in a position to do something about it. IMO, as long as your licence has C1, get the dealer to upgrade the MAUW.

 

[Oldgustaf]

Would have replied sooner but hadn't realised this is a subscription forum. Thanks for info TerryL and Blue Knight. I don't really know what to say. I'm committed to the purchase. The dealer is over 200 miles from us. We do have C1 licenses - but would upgrading it to 3850kg mean uprating the suspension? I wonder how the previous two owners got on with it. Perhaps that's why they sold it. Rather puts paid to bringing back cases of Saint-Émilion

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[TerryL]

Think perhaps you should have a chat with the dealer before doing anything else - perhaps he might get it weighed (but note amounts of fuel, water and personnel in it) to see exactly where you stand. If you really cannot get out of the purchase, and to be honest as long as you can drive it off his forecourt at the current weight he's got no obligation to you, then you'll need to consider what other options are available to you. You might find you are able to keep it within 3500kg by careful loading, running at minimum water tanks etc., but until it's weighed in touring trim you won't know. Or you could just plead ignorance as I'm sure many motorhomers on the road at the moment are doing.

Upgrading isn't a difficult job; depending on chassis you may have to fit air-assist suspension and go for higher load rated tyres. SvTech are the experts here; visit their website for more info.

It does annoy me, and many others that these vehicles can be sold which are in reality not fit for purpose. Have been a number of threads on the subject.

Do let us know how you get on and if you need any more help we're here for you.

 

[Minxy]

Would have replied sooner but hadn't realised this is a subscription forum. Thanks for info TerryL and Blue Knight. I don't really know what to say. I'm committed to the purchase. The dealer is over 200 miles from us. We do have C1 licenses - but would upgrading it to 3850kg mean uprating the suspension? I wonder how the previous two owners got on with it. Perhaps that's why they sold it. Rather puts paid to bringing back cases of Saint-Émilion

Unfortunately it will be 'tight' with the existing payload assuming that there's some left after its been weighed. You should be able to uprate it to 3850kg as is without any suspension etc mods but that will be the max unless you want to pay out silly money to make major changes, so going to 3850kg should be sufficient for most people but I'd get the dealer to weight it before you collect it just to be safe that there IS some payload left at the moment.

 

[Badknee]

I asked our dealer to weigh our Hobby 750 tag before we did the deal and also ask his driver to stay in the cab. He said it was the first time in eighteen years that anyone had asked him to do that but thought it was a great idea. (We were changing because even after having our Autocruise updated to 3850 it wasn’t enough.)
So over the bridge it was 3600kgs that gave up 1000kgs payload then I updated to 5250kgs to give us 1750kgs payload. After this I weighed it four times in all after sat system, solar, gas tank, scoot and rack. All good and still 300kgs to spare and all three axles under. Keep checking. ?

 

[Wagoneer]

Even if you upgrade to 3850kg via a paper excercise, the rear axle will still be limited to a permissible axle load of 2000kg.

All it does is allow you more "juggle" room in distributing the weight between axles.

 

[Oldgustaf]

Am I missing something here... Assuming 325kg payload, of which the good lady is 55kg (just weighed her) - that's still 14 x 20kg suitcase loads of gear to spare. I've just checked over the tech specs of the Dethleffs 2011 models, of which ours is one and there are 20+ in the range with sub-350kg payloads. If this is such a big issue could Dethleffs really have got this so wrong?

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[Badknee]

Try this, water, lpg, food.
Personal clothes, towels, toiletries, shoes, wet weather coats.
Chairs, table, loungers, outside mat.
In hot climes outside cooker/bbq, another table to put it on.
It soon adds up.
The lovely EU decided that 3500kgs would be the norm and manufacturers struggle to make them.

 

[Lenny HB]

With payload of 326kg I would class it as unusable and not fit for purpose. Realistily you need 700kg, the MIRO does not take into account any factor or dealer fitted extras which can easily add up to over 200kg.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

The weight data for the motorhome we are going to collect next week states:
MIRO 3169kg
Max. user payload 326kg
Max. authorised weight 3495kg
Am I right in thinking that MIRO includes driver (say 75kg) and a full tank of fuel (1L = 1kg?). So that leaves us with 326kg for the passenger and all our clobber, plus onboard water, gas etc. Have we bought a MH with a stupidly low payload?

To be honest,this is all really supposition

In the first instance, get the dealer to put it on a weighbridge TODAY with no fuel no water and nobody in it ang get an OFFICIAL ticket
You are ONLY interested in what the particular mo ho you are buying weighs, not what the “brochure weight” is, which is allowed to be wrong!!!

Get it weighed you are then dealing with fact
Whilst axle weights are important,at this stage total weight should be your concern

Do it today IMO before you part with your money

 

[Parrot Face]

Don't rely on Dealer statements or the vehicle specification as stated. As soon as we picked our new motorhome up we headed straight to the weighbridge and I weighed it with just me in it, 25ltrs of fuel, one gas bottle and no water. Adria spec stated a payload of 480 kg. The weighbridge indicated 320...very disappointing. After that I weighed everything that went into it. I'm definitely over my weight of 3.5 ton .

 

[pandas]

Don't rely on Dealer statements or the vehicle specification as stated. As soon as we picked our new motorhome up we headed straight to the weighbridge and I weighed it with just me in it, 25ltrs of fuel, one gas bottle and no water. Adria spec stated a payload of 480 kg. The weighbridge indicated 320...very disappointing. After that I weighed everything that went into it. I'm definitely over my weight of 3.5 ton .

Don't forget the water @ 20 ltrs, (20kg) leaving you 300!
Not sure why the dealers cannot provide a simple document for every vehicle they sell, MLTPM, then list individually all the extras with their weight - 2nd leisure battery, awning, solar panels etc, then add a driver, 20ltrs water, 90% fuel, full gas bottle, electrical reel and then you have whats left for passenger/s, dog/s, food, wine, bed linen etc. not too difficult to do and a lot less hassle for the dealer to fill with fuel and take it to the weigh station! Agree with others not enough weight left on this vehicle by the sounds of it - why compromise yourself from the outset?

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[Oldgustaf]

From the tech. spec...

The ‘Mass In Running Order’ includes the empty vehicle weight, the driver’s weight calculated at 75kg, a 90% fuel capacity, filled water tank capacity (partly reduced capacity, see technical data), 1 x 11 kg gas bottle (100% filled) and a cable reel.

So it's not quite as bad as we think.

Unless I am prepared to fight it out with the dealer to get my not inconsiderable deposit back, let's face it, I'm unlikely to succeed, we are stuck with this terrible badly though out Dethleffs.

 

[Pausim]

Am I right in thinking that MIRO includes driver (say 75kg) and a full tank of fuel (1L = 1kg?).

A litre of diesel weighs 0.832kg. The MIRO should include 90% fuel (see Blue Knight post above). With a 90% full 90 litre tank I reckon the MIRO fuel weight should be just over 67kg.

Our new Carthago is due with the dealer in a few weeks time and they have agreed to take it straight to the local weigh bridge to make sure there are no surprises. They were happy to do this, saying they use a public weigh bridge just down the road. At this point it should be well below MIRO having no gas, no water, little fuel and no cable reel. I will need to ask how heavy the driver was. I know my factory fitted modifications should already have taken 107kg out of the payload. We will then decide what dealer/user options we can add.

We usually tow a car on an A frame and plan to put some of the heavier load items in the car, which gives us another 300kg+ payload. For trips without the toad I may buy a small camping trailer.

 

[Lenny HB]

75kg, a 90% fuel capacity, filled water tank capacity (partly reduced capacity, see technical data), 1 x 11 kg gas bottle (100% filled) and a cable reel.

It's a Hymer group van they normally go by the EU recommendations which is only 20 Lt of water, the gas bottle is aluminium and no cable reel.
Don't see why it should be a fight with the dealer, with that payload it is not fit for purpose.
If you really like the van and are happy with it at 3850 get the dealer to uprate it at his cost but do get the rear axle loading checked. No point in uprating if you can't use the extra due to rear axle loading.

 

[Lenny HB]

Our new Carthago is due with the dealer in a few weeks time and they have agreed to take it straight to the local weigh bridge to make sure there are no surprises.

My guess is 130kg over brochure weight that appears the norm for Carthago's.

 

[Blue Knight]

So it's not quite as bad as we think.

Unless I am prepared to fight it out with the dealer to get my not inconsiderable deposit back, let's face it, I'm unlikely to succeed, we are stuck with this terrible badly though out Dethleffs.

Yes, it is quite bad I'm afraid. If you look at the 48-page tech spec and the options list then you'll find that the payload is calculated on the van being sparsely equipped.

If you were to opt for an awning, tv and aerial, solar and the standard UK pack (and that's just the basic gear) then that alone adds up to 100kg.

Then consider the rest of the options plus a variation of the van's final mass due to EU regulation allowances then that's a further 100+kg gone.

If you then want to add things like fresh water, a second gas bottle, a second leisure battery, more solar, tow bars, bike racks and bikes, scooters, sat domes then that could be between 300kg to 500kg depending on what combo you choose.

Then add a person or two, animals(?), clothes, food, chairs, ramps, table, wine, toothpaste and that's a further 200kg gone.

.......so my argument is how can you legally accept a van which is unfit for the purpose it was intended, as per the 2015 Supply of Goods Act.

I would go back to the dealer and ask them if this vehicle would be road legal once you've added the bits/people/gear that you want to add and see what they say.

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[Oldgustaf]

It's a Hymer group van they normally go by the EU recommendations which is only 20 Lt of water, the gas bottle is aluminium and no cable reel.
Don't see why it should be a fight with the dealer, with that payload it is not fit for purpose.
If you really like the van and are happy with it at 3850 get the dealer to uprate it at his cost but do get the rear axle loading checked. No point in uprating if you can't use the extra due to rear axle loading.

I'm not sure how would phrase that to the dealer. 'Due to it's lack of usable payload, this van is not fit for purpose. I would like my deposit back.' Do you think they'll go for that? Won't they just turn round and say, sorry mate, 'caveat emptor'.

 

[Pausim]

My guess is 130kg over brochure weight that appears the norm for Carthago's.

Just within the 5% allowed. I will let you know.

 

[Blue Knight]

I'm not sure how would phrase that to the dealer. 'Due to it's lack of usable payload, this van is not fit for purpose. I would like my deposit back.' Do you think they'll go for that? Won't they just turn round and say, sorry mate, 'caveat emptor'.

There's a good thread on the MMM Forum involving Chelston motorhomes and a punter who placed a huge deposit on a £140K Carthago Liner for two. He added all of the options and then had only 40kg left on a 4.8T chassis for his wife, gear, food etc.

He went back to Chelston and to cut a long story short they agreed that 40kg was too small a payload (!!l) and the sale was cancelled; he did choose a different van though.

 

[Lenny HB]

Several Funsters have got their money back due to inadequate payloads.
Obviously makes it easier it you buy a different van from the same dealer.

Don't know what deposit you gave but I have only given £1000 on the new vans we have ordered. I take the view a deposit should never be more than you are prepared to loose if something happens.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

I'm not sure how would phrase that to the dealer. 'Due to it's lack of usable payload, this van is not fit for purpose. I would like my deposit back.' Do you think they'll go for that? Won't they just turn round and say, sorry mate, 'caveat emptor'.

Does the dealer have any other stock of potential interest/suitability against which your deposit could be transferred? May or may not make for an easier negotiation?