Mapped (Not Google) (1 Viewer)

[Charlie]

Hi Everybody

I must say I was not expecting the reaction I am getting from this thread. I am still reading and probably will be when they close the LID. LOL

But having said that the Fiat which will be mine this Friday 3ltr I’m astounded what a rubbish clutch it must have to not be able to withstand a modest amount of increased torque, with all these people burning out their clutches, is it due to remapping or expecting the vehicle to do 0 to 60 in 6 seconds a heavy foot or just an old clutch come to the end of it’s life or some other reason which I’m not going to say here as I don’t want to upset anyone.

Does anyone know if there is an upgrade to this clutch, to a ceramic with an up-rated pressure plate?

At the moment I’m going to pickup the motorhome and see how it performs, and then decide for myself if remapping or any change is necessary.

But please keep them coming, this thread is so interesting to me anyway, but then again I’m boring anyway lol.

Perhaps people who have a Fiat 3ltr turbo and have not had it mapped also those of you that have might jump in on the thread and give your opinions, they will all be most welcomed.

As I say “It’s only a fool who doesn’t use all the knowledge available at his fingertips.” And lets face it you chaps and chapeses “YES I KNOW IT’S NOT A WORD” lol have a wealth of knowledge that I would be a fool to ignore.

Thank you everyone who has contributed up to now and thanks anyone who contributes after this post.

Best Wishes Tony

No one can say for sure if your clutch will slip. It depends on the condition of the clutch. IE how worn or unworn it is. Mileage affects wear on a clutch but a poor driver can wear one out in little miles so this alone cannot be taken as an indication.

It may be possible to up rate one but I bet its not a common set of parts to find. Like for example an up rated kit for a sports car.

It could be a stronger spring in the pressure plate would help but that could bring issues of its own like the weight of the clutch pedal..

Manufacturer's set up these clutch arrangements for the power they send the vehicle out the factory with. Upping the power is not their worry. That said many vehicles can be heavily tuned and have no problems at all.

It is entirely possible you could tune and have no problems at all. Here the information suggest there can be problems so that is why we advise accordingly.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

'' Heavy '' or as I prefer to call it '' aggressive '' tuning / remapping should be avoided i.m.o. - up to a 20/25 % increase in torque output over stock is considered within the manufacturers design tolerances & safe & acceptable by all the recognised remappers I'm aware of.

I would expect a new / newish vehicle with few recorded miles to respond better than an older vehicle as a high mileage vehicle will have a reduced bhp output & wear on drivetrain components including the clutch.

My old 05 plate Mondeo MK3 ST TDCi was remapped @ 7,000 miles & the X Sport @ 3,400 miles.

 

[Brakers]

It is entirely possible you could tune and have no problems at all.

Hi Charlie
You are totally correct in what you say, each point you make is very valid and this thread has had so many informative responses that I'm a little overwhelmed by the response. Obviously there are so many variables’ that you cannot definitively say one way or another what will happen.
It's not like death or taxes, we all know we will have to pay the taxman and the reaper. Although some companies seem to get let off lightly with one of them. lol

Someone told me that another Fiat had troubles with reversing up an incline it juddered badly, but he was unsure which one, x250 he said I don’t recognize that No. but I bet it might have been something to do with this one, but I don't know.

Anyway thanks for your input.

Best Wishes Tony

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[Brakers]

up to a 20/25 % increase in torque output over stock is considered within the manufacturers design tolerances

Hi Mark & Sharon & Aurora
I agree with you, and if the clutch can’t take that, I would be saying it’s not fit for purpose. But I’m sure the manufactures would disagree.

Best Wishes Tony

 

[Freespirit1]

That's exactly what it is with me.
Tony

Hi Tony,

I had my Chieftain 3lt remapped by QUANTUM - original 156bhp now 190 bhp at Malvern show - and would thoroughly recommend you have it done by Quantum.

Originally 21mpg now 23mpg cruising at 60mph. with added performance too.
Go for the economy and modest performance remap.

Show price was £249 and they did it there and then within your half hour booking slot - if you don't like it after its done they will revert it back to your original mapping. No chance of that its great as it is!

They have centres (agents) all over the UK but prices will vary dependant on exactly how much is involved to do particular engines.

Call Kevin at Quantum on 07815-890295 (he does the shows - next one is Peterborough) and he will advise you further.

 

[Brakers]

sudden catastrophic clutch failure.

Hi There Sorry to hear about your clutch problem, It might not have been your driving that damaged the clutch again there are so many variables who can say. Was it the previous owner, was it a faulty clutch, who knows. These things sometimes happen. How many miles had the vehicle done and what was the cost of replacing such an item.
Best Wishes Tony

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[Charlie]

I have a fiat 3ltr manual and it is very drivable with plenty of power, so not remapped

I have however experienced sudden catastrophic clutch failure. i have always driven smoothly without slamming the clutch etc, so not driving style. the commercial garage saved the shattered disc to show me and mentioned they had seen numerous before that had failed this way. its a pretty puny little clutch for the weight of the van and its standard 150bhp

Whilst I sympathise with your experience its interesting to hear of such a failure on a standard tuned vehicle. It indicates the system is at the limit of its capability's in standard engine tune.

From memory it is the swept area of the driven plate that is smaller than ideal. So less area for it to grip (for want of a better word) the flywheel. This of course means it will slip sooner under load.

IF an up rated clutch were available it would I think have to have one or both of the following to help eliminate slip.

One a larger driven plate. This would only be possible if the flywheel was large enough or the flywheel was also to be changed. Bigger grip area should help.

Or increase the spring pressure with which the driven plate is held against the flywheel. This could be done by up rating the pressure plate but then the driven plate would need up rating too or it could get destroyed by the extra load placed upon it.

The pressure required to depress the pedal may be greater when up rating springs.

Im wondering IF there is an up rated clutch kit available ?

It does seem there is an inherent weakness with this particular vehicle.

Given the weight of the vehicle and the increased work load upon what is it seems a rather weak clutch I personally would leave well alone. If I bought and found a vehicle say this one for example and found I could not live with the standard power I would think again. But no point in adding the straw that may break the donkeys back.

 

[Jim]

Something else that may be of interest to you and other motorhomers is this.
www.cgon.co.uk

Can I have an address to send advertising invoice please ?

 

[TheBig1]

Whilst I sympathise with your experience its interesting to hear of such a failure on a standard tuned vehicle. It indicates the system is at the limit of its capability's in standard engine tune.

From memory it is the swept area of the driven plate that is smaller than ideal. So less area for it to grip (for want of a better word) the flywheel. This of course means it will slip sooner under load.

IF an up rated clutch were available it would I think have to have one or both of the following to help eliminate slip.

One a larger driven plate. This would only be possible if the flywheel was large enough or the flywheel was also to be changed. Bigger grip area should help.

Or increase the spring pressure with which the driven plate is held against the flywheel. This could be done by up rating the pressure plate but then the driven plate would need up rating too or it could get destroyed by the extra load placed upon it.

The pressure required to depress the pedal may be greater when up rating springs.

Im wondering IF there is an up rated clutch kit available ?

It does seem there is an inherent weakness with this particular vehicle.

Given the weight of the vehicle and the increased work load upon what is it seems a rather weak clutch I personally would leave well alone. If I bought and found a vehicle say this one for example and found I could not live with the standard power I would think again. But no point in adding the straw that may break the donkeys back.

when i had my clutch replaced, i paid over the odds because of the logistics of a bank holiday weekend. cost between £1300 and £1600.

had i waited and been stuck a week or more, there is an aftermarket clutch kit available but hard to source which also replaces the dual mass flywheel

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[Charlie]

when i had my clutch replaced, i paid over the odds because of the logistics of a bank holiday weekend. cost between £1300 and £1600.

had i waited and been stuck a week or more, there is an aftermarket clutch kit available but hard to source which also replaces the dual mass flywheel

Many replace the now common DMF and go for the older style solid flywheel. Usually done on cost !

This can be a blessing or a bane depending on the specific vehicle. A DMF more often that not gives a slightly less weighty pedal. By this I mean the pedal is lighter to push down. A solid flywheel might need more effort to depress the clutch . This may be important to some of our members..

It could be the manufacturers of the solid flywheel kits for the specific engine we are talking about has beefed the conversion up a bit. I would be doing some research into this if I was hell bent on tuning or had tuned and was having clutch slip.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Many replace the now common DMF and go for the older style solid flywheel. Usually done on cost !

This can be a blessing or a bane depending on the specific vehicle. A DMF more often that not gives a slightly less weighty pedal. By this I mean the pedal is lighter to push down. A solid flywheel might need more effort to depress the clutch . This may be important to some of our members..

It could be the manufacturers of the solid flywheel kits for the specific engine we are talking about has beefed the conversion up a bit. I would be doing some research into this if I was hell bent on tuning or had tuned and was having clutch slip.

I can only speak for Ford Mondeo D.M.F.'s & the overwhelming, considered consensus in my experience of many years of frequenting Ford owners forums is to not replace a failed / worn out D.M.F. with a solid flywheel under any circumstances.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Hi Mark & Sharon & Aurora
I agree with you, and if the clutch can’t take that, I would be saying it’s not fit for purpose. But I’m sure the manufactures would disagree.

Best Wishes Tony

You've read the numerous pages about this and have probably drawn the clear conclusion that it is a matter of managing the risk effectively. I've had four vehicles remapped professionally and have not had any issues at all over many miles. Three of those have been motorhomes. No issues with the insurance companies either. You do tend to get what you pay for...

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[Charlie]

I can only speak for Ford Mondeo D.M.F.'s & the overwhelming, considered consensus in my experience of many years of frequenting Ford owners forums is to not replace a failed / worn out D.M.F. with a solid flywheel under any circumstances.

Wouldn't disagree. Without going into the gains that a DMF gives I personally would replace a DMF clutch set up with another one.

That said I recently sold a 2010 Ford Fiesta Sport van that had had the complete clutch and DMF changed for a solid set up and it was brilliant ! But............. Why is there always a but ? But the pedal weight was increased. So sitting in traffic could after a while become ............Well not a chore but not as comfortable as an identical vehicle fitted with a DMF ..

With the greatest of respect we do have among us a few .. Well not so young drivers. In these cases a heavier clutch might not quite fit the bill........... Just a thought

One thing that can happen though when a clutch is changed in an older vehicle is that the clutch can actually become lighter. The diaphragm spring used in most clutch pressure plates can harden over time and become stiff. This makes the pedal heavy.. Again just my thoughts

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Agreed again Charlie

D.M.F.'s, although not perfect, also reduce the vibration through the drivetrain significantly & act as a '' shock absorber '' of sorts in that respect - which a S.M.F. doesn't.

 

[Charlie]

Hi Mark & Sharon & Aurora
I agree with you, and if the clutch can’t take that, I would be saying it’s not fit for purpose. But I’m sure the manufactures would disagree.

Best Wishes Tony

If a clutch... Any clutch in any vehicle can perform without bother on a standard vehicle then essentially its fit for purpose... If Adding 20% or even 10% extra power and or torque to the equation causes slip or failure then we would have no argument.

We have here in our household two Diesel vehicles and two petrol. All vehicles are still within factory warranty.

So I would not even bother to remap either of the petrol cars cos its not worth it and certainly not worth the outlay.

Nor would I remap either of the diesels simply because I do not and will not endanger the factory warranty. Our December 2013 Toyota Rav 3 has nearly 3 years warranty remaining (5 year warranty) Our September 2013 Peugeot based motor home has remaining warranty till September this year (3 year warranty) So I will not remap them until at least after warranty has expired. After that I very likely will.

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[Charlie]

Agreed again Charlie

D.M.F.'s, although not perfect, also reduce the vibration through the drivetrain significantly & act as a '' shock absorber '' of sorts in that respect - which a S.M.F. doesn't.

They do...... The driving experience is more pleasant with the DMF these vehicles leave the factory with..

That said if I had a remapped vehicle with a slipping clutch and was fairly sure a modified and up rated solid conversion was a much better option I would fit one. Other than that it would be a replacement DMF every time.

 

[sweetie]

If I get that I will be more than happy, but with me it's more about drivability. If mine pulls like yours I'll leave it alone. By the way nice fish, what is it a wildy common or a grass carp. looks like a wildy to me. Did you catch it in the river or lake? Not too keen on calling someone sweetie but hey each to his own. lol
Best Wishes Tony

The fish was a 22lb12oz ghost carp, caught at wyton lakes campsite near huntingdon. Not a great photo though.
After falling out with owners no longer go there.
And the name sweetie came from 16 years of selling toffee fudge and sweets at shows eg Game Country & Craft shows etc. That was what the trailer was used for.
Steve

 

[Brakers]

fish was a 22lb12oz ghost carp

yes I see that now shame you didn't get a good picture, that's a fish and a half and probably a fish of a lifetime. Well done. Best Wishes Tony

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[Brakers]

OH NO I’ve had my lollipop taken from me. My motorhome won’t be ready to pick up until next Friday now as the problem that MACIC found on their inspection “Speedo tends to stick sometimes at 40MPH” will need new clocks and the part will not be here till next Wednesday. So I feel deflated but I suppose it’s better to sort it out now than when I’ve collected the motorhome, just wish they had found it earlier. L

 

[Brakers]

Without going into the gains that a DMF

It's ok I've found quite a good explanation of them, interesting.
Best Wishes Tony

 

[Scout]

OH NO I’ve had my lollipop taken from me. My motorhome won’t be ready to pick up until next Friday now as the problem that MACIC found on their inspection “Speedo tends to stick sometimes at 40MPH” will need new clocks and the part will not be here till next Wednesday. So I feel deflated but I suppose it’s better to sort it out now than when I’ve collected the motorhome, just wish they had found it earlier. L

MAJIC...not cheap but well worth tier money, Ive used them in the past myself, yet another conection

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[Seajay]

Had my 96 Transit based turbo diesel auto M/H re-mapped by local diesel specialist near Redruth, and now the old girl has got quite a bit more zip but sadly the economy, or lack of it, is exactly the same.....I seem to remember it cost about £300, but am happy enough with results.

 

[Cockers]

I used a company at the Peterborough show they came to the van in the car park plugged in thier laptop, it took 30 minutes. They said go for a drive and if you don't see any improvement they wouldn't charge me, it was amazing I didn't have to change down gears going up long hills it pulled away from the lights like a car and the fuel consumption didn't seem to be any different possibly slightly better. They did say the fiat 2.8 was the best engine to re-map I think he said it would give an additional 30 bhp. £200 well spent.

 

[sandclan25]

Hi Fellow travellers, has anybody got any experience of mapping their engine. I’m buying a Autotrail Cheyenne 840D Fiat motorhome with a 2999 engine in it. I was talking to a friend and he said that a lot of people nowadays are getting their engine mapped; he says it improves performance and economy.

Now if that’s true why don’t the manufactures set it up like that at production?

Many Thanks Tony

Hi, I have had a number of remaps on Fiat 2.8 jtd engines. I experienced same fuel usage but better driving experience having to change gear far less on hills.
Never had a problem. But make sure you use someone who knows what they are doing.
Hope this helps.
Will

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[Charlie]

Hi, I have had a number of remaps on Fiat 2.8 jtd engines. I experienced same fuel usage but better driving experience having to change gear far less on hills.
Never had a problem. But make sure you use someone who knows what they are doing.
Hope this helps.
Will

It's not just down to the tuner knowing what they are doing ...

If the clutch is weak it will slip or fail no matter who has tuned the engine .

 

[martin2603]

My 3.00 Ducato was remapped two and a half years ago. It is a 5 ton tag axle and I tow in the uk with it. U.K. Consumption 24 mpg currently we are in Spain not towing but well loaded now returning 25.9 mpg I have seen reports of people getting only 19.mpg with these vehicles.
If you drive with lead feet you will of course burn out clutches . One of my Daf trucks covered over 500,000km before it needed a clutch. It's all down to how you treat it.

Lots of heavy commercials are remapped to improve economy and performance and many have the same base engines, Renault and Volvo to name two.

I once had a Mercedes 1217 the most gutless truck I ever owned and I vowed that I would never have an underpowered vehicle. Having said that I also had a Winnie Brave with the 6.5 turbo Chevvy even the milk floats could pass that. Yesterday's technology.

If you need to try remapping Quantum tuning will do the job and if you do not feel it was worth while they will restore it to its original settings.
The choice is yours

 

[Charlie]

My 3.00 Ducato was remapped two and a half years ago. It is a 5 ton tag axle and I tow in the uk with it. U.K. Consumption 24 mpg currently we are in Spain not towing but well loaded now returning 25.9 mpg I have seen reports of people getting only 19.mpg with these vehicles.
If you drive with lead feet you will of course burn out clutches . One of my Daf trucks covered over 500,000km before it needed a clutch. It's all down to how you treat it.

Lots of heavy commercials are remapped to improve economy and performance and many have the same base engines, Renault and Volvo to name two.

I once had a Mercedes 1217 the most gutless truck I ever owned and I vowed that I would never have an underpowered vehicle. Having said that I also had a Winnie Brave with the 6.5 turbo Chevvy even the milk floats could pass that. Yesterday's technology.

If you need to try remapping Quantum tuning will do the job and if you do not feel it was worth while they will restore it to its original settings.
The choice is yours

I have to ask but Im assuming your vehicle is a manual ?

Its not really about having a lead foot when it comes to clutches. My daughter for instance is bloody hard on clutches cos she cannot seem to drop the habit of slipping the clutch as she drives away. I tell her every time I go in her car with her and then sit cringing when she doesn't get it.

Others often rest their foot on the pedal or have a ... well shall we say less than smooth driving style.

Once the pedal is fully released and the clutch completely disengaged there should be absolutely no hint of slip so at this point it shouldn't matter how heavy the foot is. Any hint of slip at that point indicates a new clutch is on the cards and soon.

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[Brakers]

it shouldn't matter how heavy the foot is

This is true and even if the vehicle is mapped or not once the clutch is fully engaged then regardless of the throttle position or how quickly it’s put to the floor it should make no difference, either way the clutch should not slip, unless it is worn or just cannot take the extra power when mapped.

It does seem strange though that some people get away with mapping and others don’t but there are so many variables one cannot say for definite why all those clutches failed but it does lead one to lean towards the fact that the clutch may not be up to the extra power.
Best Wishes Tony

 

[Brakers]

well loaded now returning 25.9 mpg

Hi Martin Wow I hope I get those sorts of figures, what did you get before the mapping?