Making the change from lead acid to lithium - a thread with pictures (1 Viewer)

[the1andonly]

I may have missed the bit about temperature sensors. Do you have one from each controller to each battery (ie 4) or some other configuration eg controller 1 to battery A controller 2 to battery B.if just one battery and 2 controller how many sensors?
Edit
Any idea as to what type of sensor is used eg type k tc thermistor ?

 

[Googlebot]

I may have missed the bit about temperature sensors. Do you have one from each controller to each battery (ie 4) or some other configuration eg controller 1 to battery A controller 2 to battery B.if just one battery and 2 controller how many sensors?
Edit
Any idea as to what type of sensor is used eg type k tc thermistor ?

Yes, it’s in there somewhere.

There are three, one for each controller and one for the B2B.

Alas they aren’t the cheap type, someone asked and I checked for them.

 

[WildBunch]

I didn't want to start a new thread.
This is mainly for Lenny HG, as we have similar Hymer Ensis I units.
I am tight for payload at 3500 kg. (still awaiting DVLA to allow C1 or not). So I am investigating going Lithium.
I currently have 2 X 100 LA batteries. A 150 W solar panel with a "Solar" PWM regulator.
I am thinking of a single Liontron LiFePo4 150Ah. This should slot in the battery bay nicely I think I will need to change the existing solar regulator. what else do you think.

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[Googlebot]

I didn't want to start a new thread.
This is mainly for Lenny HG, as we have similar Hymer Ensis I units.
I am tight for payload at 3500 kg. (still awaiting DVLA to allow C1 or not). So I am investigating going Lithium.
I currently have 2 X 100 LA batteries. A 150 W solar panel with a "Solar" PWM regulator.
I am thinking of a single Liontron LiFePo4 150Ah. This should slot in the battery bay nicely I think I will need to change the existing solar regulator. what else do you think.

You will need a B2B with lithium.

Which controller is it and does it have a lithium profile?

We kept the existing charger for mains charging.

 

[Lenny HB]

I didn't want to start a new thread.
This is mainly for Lenny HG, as we have similar Hymer Ensis I units.
I am tight for payload at 3500 kg. (still awaiting DVLA to allow C1 or not). So I am investigating going Lithium.
I currently have 2 X 100 LA batteries. A 150 W solar panel with a "Solar" PWM regulator.
I am thinking of a single Liontron LiFePo4 150Ah. This should slot in the battery bay nicely I think I will need to change the existing solar regulator. what else do you think.

You will need to fit a good MPPT solar regulator like a Victron or Votronic, the Votronic has the advantage of having a separate output to charge the starter battery. Also I would at least double your solar panels, not much point in having good batteries if you lack the means to charge them.
Also you will need to fit a B2B to sort out the engine charging. The EBL will charge them from mains although it's not ideal so if you use EHU a lot worth looking at replacing the charger.

Googlebot has had them long enough now and should be able to tell you how he is getting on.

 

[Googlebot]

Amazing!

Twice the capacity for half the weight and quick to charge.

Expensive but you get what you pay for.

With 350 watts of solar, it’s rarely below 90% since installed. Well impressed.

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[WildBunch]

A good point about adding more solar, but the just adds weight, which is the main reason to go Lithium.
My existing solar regulator does not have a specific Gel or lithium profile so will need to be replaced. more research will be required.

 

[the1andonly]

Pb 60kg Li 18kg 11kg additional panel still save about 30kg googled wts. my 100ah li was 12kg 2 110 banners 48 36kg saved . Add a panel and still save wt. Need to know your actual wts to get real numbers.

 

[Leltel]

Amazing!

Twice the capacity for half the weight and quick to charge.

Expensive but you get what you pay for.

With 350 watts of solar, it’s rarely below 90% since installed. Well impressed.

Hopeful that hubby will read this, thank you for posting the indepth information

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[Pausim]

I didn't want to start a new thread.
This is mainly for Lenny HG, as we have similar Hymer Ensis I units.
I am tight for payload at 3500 kg. (still awaiting DVLA to allow C1 or not). So I am investigating going Lithium.
I currently have 2 X 100 LA batteries. A 150 W solar panel with a "Solar" PWM regulator.
I am thinking of a single Liontron LiFePo4 150Ah. This should slot in the battery bay nicely I think I will need to change the existing solar regulator. what else do you think.

I put a LiFePO4 battery in my Hymer and subsequently moved it to my Carthago. I agree with Lenny HB that a B2B would be useful, this is the important bit of kit that makes sure your battery is full when you first arrive on a site. The easiest way is to wire the B2B is through the EBL, using the existing wiring to supply the B2B. My Votronic VCC1212-45 came with special instructions for connecting it to an EBL, this limits you to a maximum of 50A but avoids all the complications of having to disable the existing engine charging arrangement if you connect the B2B directly to the battery.

On my Hymer I added a new mains charger too, connected directly to the Li battery. You just need to pull out the 12V charging fuse on the EBL. I got this advice from Schaud, it means the EBL charger can still look after the engine battery. However I haven’t bothered to install the mains charger in my Carthago. The gel setting on the original chargers is not going to harm an Li battery but may very slightly under charge it and when on ehu this is not a problem.

 

[Googlebot]

I put a LiFePO4 battery in my Hymer and subsequently moved it to my Carthago. I agree with Lenny HB that a B2B would be useful, this is the important bit of kit that makes sure your battery is full when you first arrive on a site. The easiest way is to wire the B2B is through the EBL, using the existing wiring to supply the B2B. My Votronic VCC1212-45 came with special instructions for connecting it to an EBL, this limits you to a maximum of 50A but avoids all the complications of having to disable the existing engine charging arrangement if you connect the B2B directly to the battery.

On my Hymer I added a new mains charger too, connected directly to the Li battery. You just need to pull out the 12V charging fuse on the EBL. I got this advice from Schaud, it means the EBL charger can still look after the engine battery. However I haven’t bothered to install the mains charger in my Carthago. The gel setting on the original chargers is not going to harm an Li battery but may very slightly under charge it and when on ehu this is not a problem.

Ref the mains charger, I have found my shunt is saying the lithium are at 100% after being on the mains charger long enough. This is still the standard Hymer one. Given we don’t use it much, like you, I have kept it.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi. Googlebot thank you for your very informative thread in upgrading to lithium batteries.
The DVLA have at last taken the time to advise that I am no longer entitled to a C1 licence due to heath reasons.
I have down plated my Moho from 3850 to 3500 kg. It is now critical that I save weight Thus I am considering a lithium habitation battery. I am hoping to gain circa 35 kg in payload, plus the other advantages offered by a lithium battery.
Firstly Googlebot & Lenny HB I am hoping that you can let me know if you are you happy with the modifications you have made to the batteries & associated equipment on your Hymer vans. Have you had any problems, in particular the Hymer installed Schaud EBL 30, which I understand is limited in power & is a possible weak link in the system.

My motor home is a 2019 Hymer Exsis I 678. Fiat based. It has a normal 14.4 v alternator, not a smart alternator.
It has 2 x 95 Ah, Agm 12 volt Hab batteries, Schaut ELB 30, 1 x 95 Ah lead acid starter battery. 1 x 150 watt solar panel & Solar Technology international PWM controller. Also a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter connected directly to the domestic batteries. The inverter is only used to charge the e bike or a 200 watt hair dryer.

I have done a lot of research into upgrading to lithium & have succeeded in becoming quite confused as to the best way forward. Talking to various suppliers I have been given different possible solutions & pitfalls
Generally there are concerns over possible long term damage to the alternator, the existing ELB 30 charger & the mix of battery types that I currently have in my existing set up.
I am thinking I need one 110/120 ah lithium battery of some type.
My research indicates there are two types of lithium batteries. The normal lithium that needs a 14.7 volt charging profile or the "drop in" type that are designed to use a 14.4 volt Gel profile.
Any helpful comments would be helpful.

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[Lenny HB]

I can't be much help as I have 3 x 80ah Gels in my Hymer.
The alternator should be OK as Hymer normally fit an uprated alternator probably 160amp.

If you are going to mainly charge from solar & the alternator you could leave the EBL as Googlebot has but it's not ideal, charging voltage is OK as it's best not to fully charge a Lithium but they are not too keen on absorption & float charges. The EBL30 on Gel charges to 14.4v with an absorption phase of 16 hours & on AGM charges to 14.7v with an absorption phase of 4 hours, them drops to a float of 13.8v. IMO not very good for Lithium.

As for the drop-in ones you are not going to get the best out of them without giving them the correct charging profiles, always best to fit the correct chargers.

 

[Raul]

One think for sure, there isn’t two types, all LiFePo4 charges to max 3,65vpc, 14,6v max Anyone trying to tell you different, is misleading, poor understanding of the chemistry or have a agenda. Most respectable manufacturers will limit the high charge voltage to 14,2v max for a longer life, but 14,4v it’s a healthy compromise.

 

[Bessy765]

This is the info from my new set up, no B2B 2019 Fiat 2.3 150hp. the system with engine running on tick over produces in excess of 35 amps. Currently on EHU at home. 2 x100amp Transporter batteries (10 guarantee) 2kw Victron multi, 700watts of Solar Victron 60 amp controller.

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[Googlebot]

Hi WildBunch, glad you found it helpful.

I would say one lithium will be ideal if you are saving weight. I am very pleased with them and can certainly say Ecotree gave some good advice if you are thinking of going that way.

I am going to be putting a thread up with a more full review soon.

Mains charger wise, I have made a modification so I can switch the EBL off. With the solar and B2B I hardly ever need it on and as Raul and Lenny advise, it isn’t great to leave it charging. You also have no low temperature protection which in this weather is important as trying to charge them when they are cold isn’t good. Hook up and leave your charger on with cold lithium batteries will be expensive.

I can say the Gel setting on the EBL works and works well. It fully charges them up when required and is still going strong after 12 months. Even without the solar, I suspect I wouldn’t bother changing the mains charger as the B2B takes care of most of the charging, particularly in the winter.

 

[Lenny HB]

View attachment 563708

This is the info from my new set up, no B2B 2019 Fiat 2.3 150hp. the system with engine running on tick over produces in excess of 35 amps. Currently on EHU at home. 2 x100amp Transporter batteries (10 guarantee) 2kw Victron multi, 700watts of Solar Victron 60 amp controller.

Not good without a B2B as the feed from the alternator will not turn off when fully charged & you are relying on the BMS which is a last resort, also a danger of burning out the alternator. Your figures show the battery at 100% & charge voltage of 14.19v, for long life it is better to charge to 90% then turn off the charging which is what a Lithium charger can be set up to do.

 

[Bessy765]

As it is a new installation I have deliberately run the batteries down to 40% and allowed them to be charged up to full capacity.
I have the Cerbo CX touch control panel so can set them to how I require. As this van doesn’t have a smart alternator and has the Cyrix switch gear I am assured that a B2B is not required. All comes with a five year guarantee and the Transporter batteries ten years.

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[WildBunch]

Hi guys. Thanks for all your replies. I still have a few questions. Also clearly there is no perfect solution for everyone. It does depend on what existing equipment you have & what you are trying to do, in my case save weight for payload.
I am just putting down my thoughts as follows :-
1) So its a single 110 or 120 Ah lithium battery. Exact make yet to be determined. How to monitor the battery state of charge, by blue tooth in the battery or a smart shunt ?

2) The existing Solar Technology international PWM solar controller, needs to be replaced with a MPPT type. So which one ? The Victron seems popular. Also Schaudt LRM 1218 is a possibility. This can be wired directly into the EBL 30. The solar regulator needs to also look after the "lead" starter battery.

3) To B2B or not ?. Some say no need others say a must. On balance it seems a good thing as it will protect the alternator & battery by regulating the current. Again which one. Victron or possibly the Schaudt WA121525 booster which is designed to connect to the EBL 30.

4) What to do about charging on hook up. I don't want to add weight by fitting a dedicated mains charger. So I want to be able to use the existing EBL 30. I like Googlebot's possible modification to manually switch the EBL off, when not needed on hook up. Is this replacing the 20 Amp fuse on the front of the EBL with an external fuse & a switch (rated at 20 amp min) in series ?
I do use hook up at home & on a site, to charge up the batteries, heating & run the jumbo fridge to save gas when possible.

Googlebot I am looking forward to your further review. No pressure then.

 

[Googlebot]

Just need to put a switch in the mains lead to the EBL to switch it on and off from the mains.

I wouldn’t not use a B2B though, risky and expensive for an alternator.

Will get that review done soon enough.

 

[paddymcc]

The Schaudt B2B is only 25A and a lithium battery could take more than that. It depends a bit in whether you expect to drive far between stops I guess. The Votronic can deliver up to 50A through the EBL and you can also dial it down if you want to 38A?
Regarding hookup, if you EBL is accessible you can just remove the fuse but a switch is perhaps neater? The risk is also that you drop the fuse - done that!

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[paddymcc]

Regarding the monitoring I would be interested in answers too. I don't see why an integral BMS which has a Bluetooth module shouldn't be sufficient rather than buying a separate shunt.

 

[Guigsy]

Just need to put a switch in the mains lead to the EBL to switch it on and off from the mains.

I wouldn’t not use a B2B though, risky and expensive for an alternator.

Will get that review done soon enough.

I'm looking to replace my tired lead-acid with a lithium. I'm not planning on an invertor, biggest load will be two work laptops, so I think ~100AH will do us. I too will get a Votronic 30A B2B due to its size and efficiency and so I can reuse wiring. I'm also looking at getting a mains charger, probably Victron to match my solar.

When the van is hooked up to the mains, the EBL normally charges the batteries. It's been mentioned you can leave the 3pin plug in and just remove the 20A fuse to stop it using the internal charger. Then just put an external charger in parallel with a Lithium friendly charge profile and frost protection.

What happens to the 3-way fridge when you remove the charger fuse? Does it still automatically switch to mains? Also, there's an idiot alarm that squeals if you start the engine with the mains still plugged in, does that still work?

 

[Lenny HB]

2) The existing Solar Technology international PWM solar controller, needs to be replaced with a MPPT type. So which one ? The Victron seems popular. Also Schaudt LRM 1218 is a possibility. This can be wired directly into the EBL 30. The solar regulator needs to also look after the "lead" starter battery.

The connections to the EBL are only useful if you have a LCD display panel that gives full info.
The Votronic MMP range have connections for the EBL also have a second output for charging the starter battery.

3) To B2B or not ?. Some say no need others say a must. On balance it seems a good thing as it will protect the alternator & battery by regulating the current. Again which one. Victron or possibly the Schaudt WA121525 booster which is designed to connect to the EBL 30.

There have been a few problems with Victron ones overheating they like a lot of ventilation, the Votronic ones are fan cooled also output power is switchable.

4) What to do about charging on hook up. I don't want to add weight by fitting a dedicated mains charger. So I want to be able to use the existing EBL 30. I like Googlebot's possible modification to manually switch the EBL off, when not needed on hook up. Is this replacing the 20 Amp fuse on the front of the EBL with an external fuse & a switch (rated at 20 amp min) in series ?
I do use hook up at home & on a site, to charge up the batteries, heating & run the jumbo fridge to save gas when possible.

Googlebot hardly ever uses mains so it works for him, if you regularly use mains fit a decent charger that is suitable for Lithium.
I don't get the fridge argument, much cheaper to run on gas than pay for EHU.

What happens to the 3-way fridge when you remove the charger fuse? Does it still automatically switch to mains? Also, there's an idiot alarm that squeals if you start the engine with the mains still plugged in, does that still work?

It only disables the charger nothing to do with the fridge, power source selection is controlled by the fridge.

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[Guigsy]

It only disables the charger nothing to do with the fridge, power source selection is controlled by the fridge.

... even if you have an odd setup (EBL630) that has a web of interconnected bus modules, including one for the fridge controller?!? I supposed I could pull the fuse and find out.

 

[Lenny HB]

... even if you have an odd setup (EBL630) that has a web of interconnected bus modules, including one for the fridge controller?!? I supposed I could pull the fuse and find out.

I can't help it if you have a weird EBL.

 

[Bessy765]

We have just spent a serious chunk of change having 700 watts of solar with a 60 mttp controller, a Victron 2kw Multi inverter charger, 2 x 100 amp Transporter Lithium. The company who have carried out numerous conversions insist that a B2B in not necessary. As they have re jigged the wiring to accommodate the spare capacity from the alternator.

• Victron 2Kva Multi
• Victron GX touch control panel
• 230 amp upgraded split charge
• Victron battery protects for the charge and loads
• Victron Cerbo control system
• Victron BMV battery shunt
• 2 x Transporter Energy batteries

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[Pausim]

I have had lithium for 4 years and use the mains charger on a gel setting. The absorption phase is longer than ideal but at 14.4V is not pushing the battery to it’s limit.

I consider the B2B more important than the mains charger and I am very happy with the Votronic one I have.

 

[Lenny HB]

The company who have carried out numerous conversions insist that a B2B in not necessary. As they have re jigged the wiring to accommodate the spare capacity from the alternator.

IMO not worth the risk better to do the job properly.

 

[Guigsy]

We have just spent a serious chunk of change having 700 watts of solar with a 60 mttp controller, a Victron 2kw Multi inverter charger, 2 x 100 amp Transporter Lithium. The company who have carried out numerous conversions insist that a B2B in not necessary. As they have re jigged the wiring to accommodate the spare capacity from the alternator.

Is the argument that factory fit alternator chargers provide ~20amps and as you aren't driving for 12 hours at a time, the voltage matters less and the BMS can work it out? So if you are happy with ~20amps, there's not much point in changing?

But mains chargers are more important because they do tend to get used for long periods, so the charge profile matters?

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