Loss of power on inclines (3 Viewers)

[TinaLes]

Thanks Biggus, I sort of get it, thats obviously the top view, is that black plastic shaped bit the chopping board?
Some other photo angles would be great, but you are away on your hols, so dont worry just chill for now mate.
Thanks for posting, I will get bonnet up and see if I can get a better idea, as to be honest, last time I lifted it was when I got the van home new from the dealers Its been serviced, never needed oil, in fact never needed the washer bottle topped up, so it must be a fair size. At least Fiat got that bit right.
LES
EDIT Your second pic just came through, I didnt realise the blue plastic was part of the mod, still looking at it

 

[TheBig1]

Les, yours is an A class van if I recall right. Therefore it does not have the standard scuttle panel below the windscreen that causes these issues

 

[Sunlovers]

Ok,,, the first one shows the "diverter plate".
This is a piece of plastic chopping board, cut to size, to jam under the joiner section of the scuttle trough.
It does a really fine job of directing the spillage onto the cyl head cover.
Mind you,,, there isn't so much spillage now bcos I removed the scuttle and resealed it all.
Its such a useless design though that it'll always leak. View attachment 361025

So, is the throttle body assembly on the back of the engine or at the front?? That appears to be covering the back of the engine? Puzzled, as I have just had my throttle body assembly replaced (after only four years) and I am sure I saw the mechanic fiddling at the front of the engine when he was trying to clear the EML fault (which is STILL there!!)

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[TinaLes]

Thanks Guys, its incredible to me and others I bet,that any vehicle has a scuttle that allows water to drain inside, and over parts of the engine especially electrical bits under the bonnet, might as well not have a bonnet eh?
I dont think I have ever had a vehicle that did not drain either below the engine with a tube extension or even inside the wing on the nearside. Regular checks were needed to ensure the drain was clear of debris, but at least they worked.
LES

 

[Silver-Fox]

Thanks Guys, its incredible to me and others I bet,that any vehicle has a scuttle that allows water to drain inside, and over parts of the engine especially electrical bits under the bonnet, might as well not have a bonnet eh?
I dont think I have ever had a vehicle that did not drain either below the engine with a tube extension or even inside the wing on the nearside. Regular checks were needed to ensure the drain was clear of debris, but at least they worked.
LES

Dont buy a classic Audi Quattro then.

They have drains off the sunroof that rusts the A pillars and inner front wings along with the sunroof surround.

And every one knows about the infamous classic mini that has panels that collects water and rusts ??

 

[bigguspeckus]

Thanks Biggus, I sort of get it, thats obviously the top view, is that black plastic shaped bit the chopping board?
Some other photo angles would be great, but you are away on your hols, so dont worry just chill for now mate.
Thanks for posting, I will get bonnet up and see if I can get a better idea, as to be honest, last time I lifted it was when I got the van home new from the dealers Its been serviced, never needed oil, in fact never needed the washer bottle topped up, so it must be a fair size. At least Fiat got that bit right.
LES
EDIT Your second pic just came through, I didnt realise the blue plastic was part of the mod, still looking at it

Its no trouble at all Borr,,, I'm permanently on holiday now (well, when we get home I've got the shower room to finish,,, then Mrs Biggus wants the kitchen refitted,,, bless Er ?).
The photos aren't up to much bcos there's a huge ball of fire shining megga-muchesslottass light rays directly into the lens,,, gonna havta mention the GLORIOUS WEATHER again,,, clear blue skies, light breeze, 26c,,, it is just so lovely and warm...
The ? beer in the fridge is nice and cold though ???.
Anyway,,, enuff of that, I'll take some more pics when the sun has moved,,, have I mentioned the sun??? ?

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[bigguspeckus]

So, is the throttle body assembly on the back of the engine or at the front?? That appears to be covering the back of the engine? Puzzled, as I have just had my throttle body assembly replaced (after only four years) and I am sure I saw the mechanic fiddling at the front of the engine when he was trying to clear the EML fault (which is STILL there!!)

I'll check out the position of the TB inna while,,, waiting for the sun to fall so's I can take some better pics.

 

[bigguspeckus]

Thanks bigguspeckus (you really must stop braggin about that ting mate) us blokes have fooled ourselves for years that size doesn't matter
Seriously any chance of posting a picture of your fabricated waterproof cover, whats it made of?
All remedies for problems are always welcome on here, even if some dont get it, others will, and be grateful for the help.
Cheers
LES

More pics...

 

[PeteH]

It's the throttle body, a supposedly well known fault on the earlier 2.3 multi-jet Ducatos. Water drips onto the body from the badly fitted/designed scuttle causing corrosion in the electrical components - unfortunately even the Fiat diagnostics don't always get this right. It was pure experience on the part of my man that resolved it and afterwards it ran like a brand new vehicle.

+1 for Terry's analysis. If they replace the throttle body, make sure it's the latest type. You can tell, because it will need a new loom.

I`ll second that. I changed out the throttle body on My 2007 X250 130. for exactly the same reason. And you need the Later Loom. There is an adapter piece to convert to the later loom. water gets into the plug and destroys the contacts. BTW before you go paying Fiat prices. have a good look on E-Bay.

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[TinaLes]

More pics... View attachment 361082View attachment 361083View attachment 361084

Thanks for the picture update, Really surprising that the plastic polythene cover doesn't melt with the engine heat, but it obviously is Ok, as you have been running with it for some time I guess.
I can imagine the look on your mechanics face when he lifted your bonnet and saw the engine top was nearly shrink wrapped
Thanks again.
LES

 

[PeteH]

	Taken from another website (Fiat Forum) When mine was acting up. The details that you have provided state that your March '08 vehicle was built on 5th October 2007. From your description of the fault, i can be pretty certain of what needs to be done, and the order in which to do it. Unless this vehicle has already had a modified throttle body fitted, you are almost certainly going to need one. Sorry. In the meantime and assuming that you have not reached the stage yet whereby a huge quantity of black smoke is emitted from the exhaust while the engine is running badly and losing power; you can relieve the symptoms by removing the right hand pipe that is pushed onto the solenoid valve. This valve is bolted to the rear of a plate that is underneath the windscreen scuttle and extends 6 inches down towards the engine. This is always worth a try if you are in a mess but needs to be regarded as a temporary fix only. This solenoid will be getting quite hot because it is having to do a lot more work than it normally would, and will almost certainly need to be replaced once the throttle body is attended to. They just wear out. The test for the throttle body is to remove the rubber pipe on the left hand side so that the metal flap inside the throttle body can be reached with your fingers. If it moves very freely and returns unaided to the position that it was before; you may be lucky and it might be alright. If it is even slightly 'sticky' in operation or is stuck or does not return it is broken and will need to be replaced. The initial units fitted from 2006 were brittle and did not last long. The pivot for the flap was attached in a very weak manner to the actuator (motor drive) and broke frequently. The later revised devices were not much better until 2009 when a completely new and much more substantial unit was offered (and fitted at the factory after September 2009). The only problem with this one is that the electrical plug is incompatible with the earlier loom and requires an extortionately expensive converter lead. The replacement of the throttle body is a job not for the feint of heart. It requires the removal of the front panel and radiator(s) to provide sufficient access. Some of the bolts that secure the body and the EGR piping will inevitably break and you will need to have access to the right kit to deal with that. It will take even a garage that does this job regularly at least 4 hours to complete and you may well require additional parts like gaskets and seals (plus a few screws) to get it done. The latest throttle body is part number 504351131 and Fiat will want about £280 for it. The same item is available from Iveco dealers for about £75 less. The conversion loom is part number 504388760 costing about £115 from Fiat and a startling £60 from Iveco! You will definitely need a gasket 504084278 which is inexpensive. The solenoid valve is part number 46524556 and is around £165 from Fiat. An identical device made by Pierburg (pt number 7.02256.03.0) can be bought from Andrew Page for £35 less. However tempting the prices may look; do not even consider any used parts. This is not a job you want to do again! This kind of throttle body will not be improved by 'cleaning'. This is an absolute waste of time since the device is normally not just sticking, but broken. If there seems to be nothing wrong with the throttle body you should go straight to the solenoid valve and replace that. The bobbins used to fix it to the metal plate often break so you may need a couple of those too. Don't forget to remove the little exhaust part from the bottom of the valve and fit it to your new one. The plastic plugs that are inserted in the new one MUST be removed, and there are 3 of them. Make careful note of which of the two pipes goes to which side! On the 2.3 engine they cross over each other, and on 3.0 engines they don't! This though is a job that you might wish to try to do yourself. I am truly sorry to be the bearer of such expensive news but hopefully you can save some money by purchasing the items that you need from the other sources mentioned. If you need any further guidance just let me know and please keep us all updated with your progress.

 

[TheBig1]

the throttle body and harness adapter are only £178 delivered from ebay
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-...0001&campid=5338547443&icep_item=282922386998

the gasket about £5

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[TerryL]

Funny, isn't it, how an "obscure" fault suddenly becomes well known when the solution is pointed out?

Shame on all Fiat garages who profess to be "professional". Mine is titled Fiat Professional Service Centre and is not just some car sales place with a workshop.

 

[autoswan]

I have a 2004 fiat ducato 2.8td Autotrail and it flies along until it meets a long slow not that steep incline. I put it down to age and payload weight on trips ? If I push it on hill engine management light comes on till I back off ?
It is annoying after passing all those flippin lorries they catch up n overtake easily on the hills .

 

[bigguspeckus]

I have a 2004 fiat ducato 2.8td Autotrail and it flies along until it meets a long slow not that steep incline. I put it down to age and payload weight on trips ? If I push it on hill engine management light comes on till I back off ?
It is annoying after passing all those flippin lorries they catch up n overtake easily on the hills .

Sounds to me like you've godda power train problem there Borr.
A few more details would help: wots the mileage of the vehicle, do you keep it serviced (ever used injector cleaner), what weight are you hauling (if it's a weight problem you are seriously overloaded!).
We've got a 2011 Ducato 3lt normally aspirated and it goes uphill like a puppy pullin onna leash.
Would havta check, but your 2.8t is almost certainly more powerful than the 3.0na (wear and tear discounted).

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[autoswan]

Thanks Biggus.... Mileage is about 36k
I stick around the payload 3600kg I think, I check when we travel.
Serviced every 2 years because we only use it about 8 weeks a year due to work and school commitments.
Never used injector cleaner.
It's got loads of poke on the flat it's just those long slow climb hills it dogs out on unless I get a good run up first and hills not to long .

 

[bigguspeckus]

Thanks Biggus.... Mileage is about 36k
I stick around the payload 3600kg I think, I check when we travel.
Serviced every 2 years because we only use it about 8 weeks a year due to work and school commitments.
Never used injector cleaner.
It's got loads of poke on the flat it's just those long slow climb hills it dogs out on unless I get a good run up first and hills not to long .

With that mileage/service schedule its highly unlikely to be mechanical,,, no black smoke from the exhaust?
If the EMS warning lite is displayed its almost certainly electronic (the loss of power).
Check out the Fiat Ducato forum, you'll probably be advised to get the throttle body and solonoid valve replaced.
Beware before seeking pro help,,, there's some real horror stories out there about so called "Fiat Specialists" charging much and achieving little.
Good luck and please keep us updated.
Regards James.

 

[autoswan]

With that mileage/service schedule its highly unlikely to be mechanical,,, no black smoke from the exhaust?
If the EMS warning lite is displayed its almost certainly electronic (the loss of power).
Check out the Fiat Ducato forum, you'll probably be advised to get the throttle body and solonoid valve replaced.
Beware before seeking pro help,,, there's some real horror stories out there about so called "Fiat Specialists" charging much and achieving little.
Good luck and please keep us updated.
Regards James.

Thanks. No black smoke just slow up long hills but it gets there, sometimes in second gear before the top.
I'll keep an eye on fiat ducato forum.

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[PeteH]

Mine was Showing 37K miles when the issue cropped up. It is "Alleged" that it is more prevalent on Motorhomes because of the way "we" do mileage. Huge bursts with long periods stationary?

 

[Masman]

I have a 2004 fiat ducato 2.8td Autotrail and it flies along until it meets a long slow not that steep incline. I put it down to age and payload weight on trips ? If I push it on hill engine management light comes on till I back off ?
It is annoying after passing all those flippin lorries they catch up n overtake easily on the hills .

Sound like Turbo waste gate sticking.I had same problem a few weeks ago.Theres a thread on here somewhere. Got underneath van and sprayed Wd40 and waggled waste gate lever.Took it for a long run.First big hill still the same.After a few miles I hit another hill .This time it was ok.When it went in for service they sprayed some grease onto spindle. Up to now it seem ok.

 

[autoswan]

Sound like Turbo waste gate sticking.I had same problem a few weeks ago.Theres a thread on here somewhere. Got underneath van and sprayed Wd40 and waggled waste gate lever.Took it for a long run.First big hill still the same.After a few miles I hit another hill .This time it was ok.When it went in for service they sprayed some grease onto spindle. Up to now it seem ok.

Thanks, where abouts underneath us this waste gate ? Apart from undersealing and checking for any rust or things out of place under there ive never looked for the turbo waste gate before ?

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[Masman]

Thanks, where abouts underneath us this waste gate ? Apart from undersealing and checking for any rust or things out of place under there ive never looked for the turbo waste gate

Thanks, where abouts underneath us this waste gate ? Apart from undersealing and checking for any rust or things out of place under there ive never looked for the turbo waste gate before ?

It's at the back of engine.If you search forum for fiat 2.8 red light coming on it should show you.I will try to attach picture

 

[Lenny HB]

Les, yours is an A class van if I recall right. Therefore it does not have the standard scuttle panel below the windscreen that causes these issues

Les's Carthago is a low profile with standard Fiat cab.

 

[F4K EM]

Yahoo.
I am finally back on the road.
My local garage could not find any issues with the egr or throttle body. I foolishly said I would take it to Guests Fiat dealers as they should know what’s wrong. Another two weeks and £400 to get nowhere so took it back to local then lockdown happened. When he opened back up he found that the air intake gasket had blown in two places and everything was caked in carbon deposits inside. Had it back but still no power on hills. It was then discovered that the actuator lever on the turbo had broken off! This was fixed with a weld. So after all that I will have paid out around £2000 and it was nothing to do with the egr which was the only ever fault shown on the engine management. If you own a Fiat, don’t bother with Fiat dealers, hopeless.

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[pappajohn]

Just goes to show, modern technology is a backward step.
20 years ago you could fix just about anything with a penknife and half a brick.

 

[DavidG58]

Not read this thread before today, with zero technical knowledge I did think it sounded very much like my turbo EML issue three plus years ago

glad you are sorted, if any consolation you spent half what I did

 

[Langtoftlad]

There's another thread about profiteering on sales - but it seems so wrong that Fiat Professional Service centres can get away with charging so much for not fixing your van, for replacing components that aren't faulty.
I appreciate there's an element of "process of elimination" with fault finding... but if the new bit doesn't fix the problem, your original should be re-fitted FOC [or at least, if not possible, the new part at cost].

Just seems wrong.

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[cornish boy]

There's another thread about profiteering on sales - but it seems so wrong that Fiat Professional Service centres can get away with charging so much for not fixing your van, for replacing components that aren't faulty.
I appreciate there's an element of "process of elimination" with fault finding... but if the new bit doesn't fix the problem, your original should be re-fitted FOC [or at least, if not possible, the new part at cost].

Just seems wrong.

I feel for the Service Centre, they are using the Fiat tools, in the way Fiat stipulate and carrying out work as a result of the process they have been trained to use. 99% of the time it works out in the customers favour and a repair is efficiently carried out.

1% of the time it doesn't work out, and then you need to reply on a team of mechanics with a wide range of experiences to try and get to the bottom of the issue. In the OP's example, he used three service centres (two Fiat authorised) with unknown numbers of staff and only after the ellimination of lots of areas, did the answer come to light, and then the real answer wasn't anything that had been already suggested on here, so you have to assume it was quite obscure.

While this has been an expensive journey for the OP, not all visits to Fiat Professional Service Centres end up like that.

For example, I took our motorhome to our local Fiat Professional with a brake issue, while talking to the service manager about the symptoms, he turned to the mechanic who was listening and asked him to 'go and do your magic trick'. Two minutes later, the issue was cured FOC and hasn't returned in three years.

 

[tonyidle]

I feel for the Service Centre, they are using the Fiat tools, in the way Fiat stipulate and carrying out work as a result of the process they have been trained to use. 99% of the time it works out in the customers favour and a repair is efficiently carried out.

The problem is the process (and training or lack of it). I can see no justification for charging a customer for parts used when attempting to diagnose a problem. If little labour charge is incurred to change a part and it doesn't fix the problem the original should be refitted. Modern vehicle "diagnostics" are a licence to print money. As for training - if the technician has no pre-ECU experience he or she probably will not look past electronic diagnosis. All the stuff that can affect any ICE will be totally ignored.

My rather more amusing tale involves our first Smart car. I drove it for the first 18 months before the MoT man spotted a missing rivet in the wastegate actuator link. (he hadn't noticed it at the first MoT). Once told about it I fixed it and totally transformed the car. In my defence they have a small engine and I didn't know how the car should perform. Having a working turbo made an amazing difference as you would imagine .

 

[cornish boy]

The problem is the process (and training or lack of it). I can see no justification for charging a customer for parts used when attempting to diagnose a problem. If little labour charge is incurred to change a part and it doesn't fix the problem the original should be refitted. Modern vehicle "diagnostics" are a licence to print money. As for training - if the technician has no pre-ECU experience he or she probably will not look past electronic diagnosis. All the stuff that can affect any ICE will be totally ignored.

My rather more amusing tale involves our first Smart car. I drove it for the first 18 months before the MoT man spotted a missing rivet in the wastegate actuator link. (he hadn't noticed it at the first MoT). Once told about it I fixed it and totally transformed the car. In my defence they have a small engine and I didn't know how the car should perform. Having a working turbo made an amazing difference as you would imagine .

I don't disagree about it being tough to justify fitting a part that doesn't cure the issue. But these occasions are in real terms, such a small percentage of the number of service and repairs carried out, that manufacturers don't even consider them as having a negitive impact upon their reputation.

Having worked at various stages in my career for a fleet end user, a dealer and for a manufacturer, I know how frustrating incidents like this can be. I also know that most dealers and manufacturers are open to having a sensible conversation when it does go wrong.

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