Long term future of autogas in fuel stations? (1 Viewer)

[gpat]

es to tempt you so came away with two full cylinders of gas plus a new table and a new chair !!!

Nice use name

Or even another fantastic carado a class

 

[gpat]

Go to the App Store on your phone or tablet and install my LPG.eu and that way you will have the nearest LPG filling point and also the price per litre also I have found that a lot of motorhome dealerships have a bulk tank to fill up your refillable bottles often they will offer you a free coffee while a member of staff takes your motorhome to the workshop to fill your system be very careful!!! Your free coffee will be put just outside of their SHOP with all the goodies to tempt you so came away with two full cylinders of gas plus a new table and a new chair !!!

What an amazing app. So much better than the desktop sites. Even found the little station on the isle of man

 

[68c]

Question..... Is it possible to CONVERT diesel engines to LPG??
I thought you could only convert petrol engines.
Apologies if I am talking Sh@@e.

Not really a viable option. There are two methods:

Conversion:- Lower the compression ratio, add a spark ignition system. Basically making it the same as a petrol engine but with a wrong camshaft and probably still limited to lower RPM as engine may not be designed for stresses of the usual higher speed of a petrol engine. Diesel engines run cooler so may have to upgrade the cooling system as well..

Fumigation:- Injecting the LPG with the diesel, engine runs mainly on diesel so would probably not be acceptable in a ULEZ. A slight improvement in economy but would take a lot of miles to pay for the system.

Verdict:- Not worth it.

Best approach is to fit a petrol engine, a bit of work but possible. Perhaps some enterprising person is already buying up suitable used cars to be used as donors, they could make good money just concentrating on the Puegeot/Fiat vans, plenty of 2litre cars out there. Once the conversion design has been sorted could probably be done in a week.

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[poppycamper]

Thank you 68c. Pretty much what I originally thought.

 

[tonyidle]

I think that they’re making a mistake if they’re taking LPG out o forecourts.
The future is looking like going in two directions at the moment.
One being electric and the other being Gas.
Hydrogen is being tested and rolled out by the majority of the vehicle manufacturers and although driving range is massive compared with electric, outlets are currently focussed on electric charging rather than hydrogen pump outlets. (Google Hydrogen vehicle pumps in the UK and you’ll see there’s currently only a handful, probably due to gas being in it’s infancy with manufacturers).
It won’t be long before everyone realises that if Hydrogen is another way forward for fuelling vehicles - which it has been identified as being, manufacturers and gas producers will realise that all of our diesels currently on the road would be better being converted to LPG. 1) to help reduce emissions and 2) to help with reducing the sale of diesel as a forecourt fuel and 3) gas producers will react to market demand - as they currently are because not many are thinking about what to do with their current diesl.
If you think that manufacturers in the last year that they’re allowed to sell a new diesel car in the UK, will look to discount them massively as new buyers will be thinking twice about their resale value before they’ve even bought it from new.
The second hand car market will see a dip in diesel as tax will probably have to change to incentivise further to move away from diesel.
So all of these cars will be still on the road or still available at a dealer and if you think that a typical diesel isn’t seen as being ‘run in’ until it’s got 30-40k on the clock. So diesels are here to stay for a while yet and LPG will be looked at again I feel.

It is near impossible to convert a Diesel engine to run on LPG. Any vehicle running LPG is emitting the same amount of CO2 as a petrol / Diesel vehicle. I can't see any incentive to run LPG in future. None of the LPG infrastructure (such as it is) is suitable for hydrogen distribution.

 

[tonyidle]

Diesel engines run cooler

They actually produce more heat and require better cooling systems.

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[68c]

They actually produce more heat and require better cooling systems.

Bit of an odd one this. Had to google it. It seems the diesel is hotter during combustion but expands the hot gas better resulting in a lower exhaust gas temperature. Many people complain of their diesel car heater not being very good on short runs, this may be due to the heavier construction of the diesel taking longer to heat. So not certain now about which runs hotter and which needs the best cooling system due to the different way the heat is produced. Over to you TonyIdle

 

[tonyidle]

Bit of an odd one this. Had to google it. It seems the diesel is hotter during combustion but expands the hot gas better resulting in a lower exhaust gas temperature. Many people complain of their diesel car heater not being very good on short runs, this may be due to the heavier construction of the diesel taking longer to heat. So not certain now about which runs hotter and which needs the best cooling system due to the different way the heat is produced. Over to you TonyIdle

The reason a Diesel engine uses less fuel than a petrol engine (in terms of mpg) is that Diesel has a higher fuel value:

"diesel fuel is denser than petrol and contains about 15% more energy by volume"

- so produces more energy (and therefore heat). However a Diesel runs unthrottled so at anything other than full throttle / max power output it is pumping more air than is required for combustion which cools the engine (and exhaust). The cooling system is designed for maximum power operation when all the air is used for combustion. Or put another way:

"Gasoline engine air intakes are throttled, meaning the airflow is restricted by a valve to deliver only enough air to burn the fuel charge and no more. This ensures the exhaust gasses are minimally diluted and therefore hotter. Diesel engines have no air throttle and tend to run leaner, diluting the exhaust gasses with uncombusted air, reducing the exhaust temperature.

Most Diesel engine powered vehicles get 20-40% better gas mileage than gasoline engine vehicles. This is because the Diesel engine is more efficient; that is, per pound of fuel burned the Diesel engine extracts more work (energy). Even though the Diesel engine has a higher peak temperature during the ignition and power stroke, the expansion ratio of the hot gas is significantly higher than that of the gasoline engine, followed by a turbo expander and the resultant exhaust is cooler.

This is intuitive for anyone who has studied thermodynamics. The more efficient and engine gets, the cooler the exhaust must be. "More efficient" simply means more of the combustion heat was converted into useable work, which leaves less heat in the exhaust gas, which is manifested as lower temperature exhaust gas. Rankine cycle power plants might be 30-40% efficient and produce a 500-700F flue gas. Combined cycle power plants might be 50-60% efficient and produce a 300-350F flue gas. One can't compare two processes and find that one of them is simultaneously more efficient and wasting more energy heating exhaust gasses that are discarded."

 

[68c]

So not a simple thing to determine. Getting back to topic, our local Morrisons near Totton in the New Forest does not sell LPG, luckily the Shell station about a mile north on the A36 does. We also have Flogas at Fawley although difficult to access with Covid regs.

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[Brains]

The shipping world is looking to move to LPG to power the much of world fleet in the next decade or so.
(90% of everything around you, what you wear and what you eat got to you by ship)

Shipping over the last 150 years has moved from wind, to coal, to heavy fuel oil (basically crude oil), to diesel, and now moving to LPG.

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
Freight I suspect may move to LPG, and long distance cars may follow

 

[GAVLAD]

It is near impossible to convert a Diesel engine to run on LPG. Any vehicle running LPG is emitting the same amount of CO2 as a petrol / Diesel vehicle. I can't see any incentive to run LPG in future. None of the LPG infrastructure (such as it is) is suitable for hydrogen distribution.

Firstly, nothing is impossible. It may not be done now but doesn’t mean to say that it can’t be done in the future.
Diesel emits more CO2 than petrol. Otherwise, petrol cars would have been banned at the forecourt like diesels planned to be.
I’ve never said that the current LPG infrastructure would be suitable for hydrogen distribution. What I have said is to Google where you can buy hydrogen for vehicle refuelling and it’s a lot less than how many outlets sell LPG.
I believe(my personal view) that manufacturers will go back to looking at LPG.
The infrastructure is there. More than what can be said about other fuelled options that are being looked at.

 

[kevenh]

<snip>
I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
<snip>

Maybe, but the replacement for battery powered EV isn't off the drawing board yet - if it's on it - right?
We'd not go back to fossil fuels here.

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[GAVLAD]

The shipping world is looking to move to LPG to power the much of world fleet in the next decade or so.
(90% of everything around you, what you wear and what you eat got to you by ship)

Shipping over the last 150 years has moved from wind, to coal, to heavy fuel oil (basically crude oil), to diesel, and now moving to LPG.

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
Freight I suspect may move to LPG, and long distance cars may follow

It can be done. It's currently expensive because not many people do it because they have a diesel for the cost savings against the mileage they do, but if the option of diesel goes and there's a market to convert the current diesels on the road and those that the manufacturers are yet to sell up until the ban comes in, it will be explored more.
It will mean a conversation which alters the compression and also a kit installing which addresses the non spark to a spark.

 

[tonyidle]

Firstly, nothing is impossible. It may not be done now but doesn’t mean to say that it can’t be done in the future.
Diesel emits more CO2 than petrol. Otherwise, petrol cars would have been banned at the forecourt like diesels planned to be.
I’ve never said that the current LPG infrastructure would be suitable for hydrogen distribution. What I have said is to Google where you can buy hydrogen for vehicle refuelling and it’s a lot less than how many outlets sell LPG.
I believe(my personal view) that manufacturers will go back to looking at LPG.
The infrastructure is there. More than what can be said about other fuelled options that are being looked at.

LPG is, as you say, one of cleanest hydrocarbon fuels. It would be considerably cheaper to change a Diesel engine for a spark ignition equivalent than to convert the Diesel engine to spark ignition. However any attempt to prolong the life of ICE would be effort better spent on EV and their required infrastructure. Given the stated intention to rapidly phase out ICE and the equally rapid developments in EV and batteries there won't be any further interest in LPG. IMO of course .

 

[poppycamper]

LPG is, as you say, one of cleanest hydrocarbon fuels. It would be considerably cheaper to change a Diesel engine for a spark ignition equivalent than to convert the Diesel engine to spark ignition. However any attempt to prolong the life of ICE would be effort better spent on EV and their required infrastructure. Given the stated intention to rapidly phase out ICE and the equally rapid developments in EV and batteries there won't be any further interest in LPG. IMO of course .

We used to have 17t fork lift trucks that were lpg.
IMO they were not fit for purpose... woofully underpowered and struggled to lift anywhere near 17t.
Got rid of in under a year and went back to diesel.

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[Brains]

We used to have 17t fork lift trucks that were lpg.
IMO they were not fit for purpose... woofully underpowered and struggled to lift anywhere near 17t.
Got rid of in under a year and went back to diesel.

To be fair, that sounds like a bad model, possibly where they have taken a diesel design and then converted it to be LPG as opposed to design from scratch.
There is no reason an LPG powered fork lift can't lift 17t or go as fast as a diesel.

If you can power 50,000 tonnes of ship at 22 knots on LPG, I'm sure you can do a 17t Fork Lift at 20 mph

 

[poppycamper]

To be fair, that sounds like a bad model, possibly where they have taken a diesel design and then converted it to be LPG as opposed to design from scratch.
There is no reason an LPG powered fork lift can't lift 17t or go as fast as a diesel.

If you can power 50,000 tonnes of ship at 22 knots on LPG, I'm sure you can do a 17t Fork Lift at 20 mph

I agree totally.. we had 3... all Hysters all useless..
Ps it was not the speed they struggled with... it was lifting 17t packs of chip board 30 feet into air to stack.

 

[Garry - June]

The shipping world is looking to move to LPG to power the much of world fleet in the next decade or so.
(90% of everything around you, what you wear and what you eat got to you by ship)

Shipping over the last 150 years has moved from wind, to coal, to heavy fuel oil (basically crude oil), to diesel, and now moving to LPG.

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
Freight I suspect may move to LPG, and long distance cars may follow

Did i not read a few days ago that the new Brittany ferry coming soon is gas powered...

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[poppycamper]

Did i not read a few days ago that the new Brittany ferry coming soon is gas powered...

You did indeed.. and not only one. Think they planning 3 or 4.

 

[emjaiuk]

What's the difference between LPG and LNG? Most ships and barges and trucks for that matter that I've read about say LNG.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

LPG= Propane or Butane relatively low pressure
LNG - Natural gas heavily compressed under cryo conditions

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[cantonalegod]

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips

That's one of the funniest things I have ever read!

Do you have any idea of the investment some legacy car manufacturers are making in EV development.

There will be at least 20 new electric vehicles released this year, from the likes of VW, Audi, Nissan, Lexus.

A lot of EV's now have ranges between 250 to 300 miles.

I guess they may be a flash in the pan compared to the history of the universe, but otherwise I think not!

Global sales of electric cars accelerate fast in 2020 despite pandemic

Sales of electric cars rose by 43% while overall car sales slumped by a fifth last year

www.google.com

Full dusclosure: I have had an electric car for just over a year. It has a range of around 190 miles, it is the best car I have ever driven.

 

[Brains]

That's one of the funniest things I have ever read!

Do you have any idea of the investment some legacy car manufacturers are making in EV development.

There will be at least 20 new electric vehicles released this year, from the likes of VW, Audi, Nissan, Lexus.

A lot of EV's now have ranges between 250 to 300 miles.

I guess they may be a flash in the pan compared to the history of the universe, but otherwise I think not!

Global sales of electric cars accelerate fast in 2020 despite pandemic

Sales of electric cars rose by 43% while overall car sales slumped by a fifth last year

www.google.com

Full dusclosure: I have had an electric car for just over a year. It has a range of around 190 miles, it is the best car I have ever driven.

I don't disagree with you.
By the early 2040's the majority of cars in northern Europe will be electric.

However, by the 2050's the idea of you driving your personal electric car 200+ miles in a single day will be a thing of the past.

Public transport (which would include a lot of automated taxis) will be the way to go, leaving the personal cars for short distances.
Basically a return to the early 1900's where you travelled by steam train for long distances and by horse and cart for short distances. (First mile/last mile)
If you could call an automated taxi on your phone, and know that one would appear with say 3 minutes, every time and only charge you a small fee, there would be no need to own a car, especially in urban areas.

Road freight I believe will go gas powered eventually (or until such time as the the small, light, cheap, fast charging, battery can be invented)

 

[Cheshirecat57]

The shipping world is looking to move to LPG to power the much of world fleet in the next decade or so.
(90% of everything around you, what you wear and what you eat got to you by ship)

Shipping over the last 150 years has moved from wind, to coal, to heavy fuel oil (basically crude oil), to diesel, and now moving to LPG.

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
Freight I suspect may move to LPG, and long distance cars may follow

Road Freight will NOT move to LPG
If you mean LNG, then this is in use now in trucks, but really only a stop-gap between now and electric trucks
The infra structure for road LNG is turning out to be a 'mare of huge proportions

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[gpat]

Did i not read a few days ago that the new Brittany ferry coming soon is gas powered...

I have a feeling stena fastcraft are gas powered. But I might be wrong.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I have a feeling stena fastcraft are gas powered. But I might be wrong.

The gas turbines on the fast ferries are water jets powered by kerosene. Impressively quick with over 100,000 SHP but Very expensive to run. Stena are developing LNG powered large tankers plus an increasing number of shipping companies (the usual suspects MSC, CMA CGM, Mitsui etc) have developed LNG powered box boats. They may be regretting that decision soon as LNG prices are on the up

 

[DuxDeluxe]

The shipping world is looking to move to LPG to power the much of world fleet in the next decade or so.
(90% of everything around you, what you wear and what you eat got to you by ship)

Shipping over the last 150 years has moved from wind, to coal, to heavy fuel oil (basically crude oil), to diesel, and now moving to LPG.

I suspect electric cars will be a bit of a flash in the pan.
As realistically they re only good for short urban trips, and the long term solution for short urban trips is (electric?) bicycles, public transport and (automated) taxis.
Freight I suspect may move to LPG, and long distance cars may follow

There are a whole number of fuels being looked at and developed. Ships fuels have been my job for many years and still work as consultant:

LPG is a refined product and thus a bit more expensive but has relatively good energy density and is easy to keep. Despite that, I don't think it has much of a future due to supply - refinery dependent
LNG is a natural product and very very plentiful - in the '70's and '80's it was mostly simply flared. Hard to reliquify as it needs multi stage refrigeration and with poor energy density reducing cargo carrying capacity. Supply chains are being developed and the major port offer LNG bunkering - the main market is fixed route ferries and big box boats on clearly defined trading patterns. Most LNG powered big ships have dual fuel engines
NH3 - Ammonia is being touted as a fuel as well

The conclusion is that good old dirty messy fuel oil (now VLSFO - 0.5% sulphur) will dominate the shipping market for many years to come; it is a question of hard nosed economics and supply versus cost.

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[Garry - June]

Could always go the whole hog on shipping and go back to those big white flappy things...

 

[68c]

Could always go the whole hog on shipping and go back to those big white flappy things...

Massed seagulls in harness, I like it.