London Emission Zone Petition (1 Viewer)

[olley]

Hi Brian don't count on it, you need a certificate from an approved converter, so it would seem DIY isn't an option. Unless a lot more converters come on to the scene, there is no reason for them to reduce the price.

Personally I don't think that many will bother, after all its only for London at the mo. with other cities possibly following in the next few years, all of which are easy to avoid.

Olley

 

[Tony Hunt]

And avoid them we will. Why the hell would anybody want to be arsed to drive anywhere near London in a M/H these days, I wont even drive my car anywhere past the M25 boundary without a lot of protest. Nay I wont even travel into London these days,whichever method of transport is available, The peace and quiet of the Dorset countryside (other than Holiday times ) suits me. I can do without all the hassles that big city life breeds and its inhabitants, period.

 

[Mavis]

Emission

Sorry but a lot of Motorhomers do live in London
There is not a conversion out for my Motorhome and Fiat said they wont do one as It wasnt cost effective and all motorhome manufactures are saying the same.
anyway read the following
l
atest info from the Forum of the MCC
Hi, I dont know how many of you are aware of the new legislation concerning diesel.
As of Jan 08 a new 10ppm diesel compared with the 50 ppm diesel we buy now is being implemented, so surely the powers to be will have to recalculate vehicles emissions, as with 10ppm diesel we will all be producing lower emissions.
Only snag with the new 10ppm diesel is it wil cost about 2p per litre more, as it takes longer to refine, to remove the excess sulphur, this along with the proposed duty increase in March could see us paying another 4p per litre. Later on next year they will be implementing a 10ppm unleaded petrol.
For technical information on the above visit
Link Removed

Now Read this a letter to One of our COM at the MCC and see what you make of it as one minister is telling me to get the M1 on my V5C and this says we are not M1 but that M1 is exempt or am I reading it wrong 11th December 2007
London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) - L1657776 / LR
Thank you for your recent enquiry received on 10th December 2007, about the LEZ Scheme.
Vehicles classed as M1 are not subject to the LEZ.
All diesel-engined motor caravans that are greater than 2.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight are
subject to the LEZ Scheme.
As the Scheme will have a phased introduction, only diesel-engined motor caravans over 12
tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight will be subject to the Scheme from 4th February 2008. These
vehicles will be required to meet an emission standard of Euro III to be used in the Zone without
paying the daily charge.
From 7th July 2008, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 3.5 and 12 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will be required to meet this standard.
From October 2010, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 2.5 and 3.5 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will also be required to meet the Euro III standard.
From January 2012, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing over 3.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle
Weight will be required to meet an emission standard of Euro IV.
If the vehicle has been classed as N1 it will be subject to the LEZ. Vehicles classified as M1 are
cars. Motor caravans will not be classified as M1.
If you have any questions regarding the Scheme you may find it useful to visit our website, just
log on to www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon. You may also telephone our Contact Centre on 0845 607
0009, Textphone 0207 310 8999 (if you have impaired hearing), where a member of staff will be
more than happy to help.
Thank you for contacting Transport for London.
Daljit Mahal
Operations Manager
Yours faithfully
London Low Emission Zone
MAYOR OF

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

latest info from the Forum of the MCC
Hi, I dont know how many of you are aware of the new legislation concerning diesel.
As of Jan 08 a new 10ppm diesel compared with the 50 ppm diesel we buy now is being implemented, so surely the powers to be will have to recalculate vehicles emissions, as with 10ppm diesel we will all be producing lower emissions.
Only snag with the new 10ppm diesel is it wil cost about 2p per litre more, as it takes longer to refine, to remove the excess sulphur, this along with the proposed duty increase in March could see us paying another 4p per litre. Later on next year they will be implementing a 10ppm unleaded petrol.
For technical information on the above visit
Link Removed

Been in communication with Mavis separately and she asked me to post this:

I have now done some Googling and see that, as far as this country is concerned, this isn't actually new. The link to the BP web site in the message above is to the BP Australia web site.

As regards this country, details are given at Link Removed - it appears that the requirement for the sulphur content of diesel duel not to exceed 10 ppm had to be reached by Tuesday last week (4th December). Therefore, any effect is already with us. It would appear that the person who posted to the MCC web site got their wires crossed somewhere

Graham

 

[olley]

Hi This is from Wikipedia:
Fuel sulfur interferes with many "regeneration" strategies, so almost all jurisdictions that are interested in the reduction of particulate emissions, are also passing regulations governing fuel sulfur levels.

The regeneration refered to concerns the particulate filters.

Olley

 

[Rose Royce]

:
Vehicles classed as M1 are not subject to the LEZ.
If the vehicle has been classed as N1 it will be subject to the LEZ. Vehicles classified as M1 are
cars. Motor caravans will not be classified as M1.

Seems clear to me and this guy should know.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Mavis]

Emission

And interestingly enough, Red Ken is doing a deal with Venuzuela to swap their oil for techno know how for traffic management.
Only problem is, their oil is THE most sulfurous in the world.
It has the properties of corroding structures made with aluminum or copper, and perpeates soft stone, such as limestone, which is what has been used for the majority of London's landmark buildings, hastening the flaking of the lime and disfiguring it, as happened when coal fires were in use in London.
Link Removed

 

[Mavis]

Emission

Please read your MMM's page 207 and get 7 quotes as they ask

 

[Mavis]

emissions

Just found this on the mmm's forum and it is a great help for those visiting Germany

From 1 January 2008 a total of 33 German cities will require all motorists to purchase a "Pollution Badge" in the form of a windscreen sticker in order to enter city centre ‘Umwelt Zones’ (green zones).

The participating cities are: Augsburg, Berlin, Braunschweig, Köln (Cologne), Darmstadt, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Hannover, Heidelberg, Islfeld, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Leipzig, Leonburg, Ludwigsburg, Madgeburg, Mannheim, Mühlacker, München (Munich), Neu-Ulm, Nürnberg (Nuremberg), Pforzheim, Pleidelsheim, Regensburg, Reutlingen, Ruhr Area, Schwäbish-Gmund, Stuttgart, Tübingen and Ulm.

You must present your vehicle registration document at Pollution Badge (Umwelt Plakette) sales outlets, including vehicle repair centres, car dealers, MOT (Tüv) stations and vehicle licensing offices, and you will be issued with a badge, coloured (Red/Yellow/Green) according to your vehicle’s Euro emission rating.

The cost of the badge is understood to be between €5 and €10 and, once issued, covers you throughout Germany for the life of your vehicle. Failure to display a badge could incur a fine of €40. Enforcement will be managed by the police, local authorities and traffic wardens.

This website gives a lot of information (in German): http://www.umwelt-plakette.de
Also Link Removed

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pappajohn]

Just found this on the mmm's forum and it is a great help for those visiting Germany

From 1 January 2008 a total of 33 German cities will require all motorists to purchase a "Pollution Badge" in the form of a windscreen sticker in order to enter city centre ‘Umwelt Zones’ (green zones).

The participating cities are: Augsburg, Berlin, Braunschweig, Köln (Cologne), Darmstadt, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Hannover, Heidelberg, Islfeld, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Leipzig, Leonburg, Ludwigsburg, Madgeburg, Mannheim, Mühlacker, München (Munich), Neu-Ulm, Nürnberg (Nuremberg), Pforzheim, Pleidelsheim, Regensburg, Reutlingen, Ruhr Area, Schwäbish-Gmund, Stuttgart, Tübingen and Ulm.

You must present your vehicle registration document at Pollution Badge (Umwelt Plakette) sales outlets, including vehicle repair centres, car dealers, MOT (Tüv) stations and vehicle licensing offices, and you will be issued with a badge, coloured (Red/Yellow/Green) according to your vehicle’s Euro emission rating.

The cost of the badge is understood to be between €5 and €10 and, once issued, covers you throughout Germany for the life of your vehicle. Failure to display a badge could incur a fine of €40. Enforcement will be managed by the police, local authorities and traffic wardens.

This website gives a lot of information (in German): http://www.umwelt-plakette.de
Also Link Removed

sorry mavis, donmadge beat you to it.
a whole thread about it here :-
Link Removed

john.

 

[Mavis]

emissions

Hi I have emailed Rt Hon Rosie Wintereton, Boris, London Transport and a lawyer

My Question
If everyone in the Europe is paying a one off fee for the lifetime of a vehicle then can Livingstone Legally charge £100 in and £100 out per day is this not a crime

 

[Rose Royce]

I believe the start has been posponed by 4 weeks. Anyone know why?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Brisey]

Apparently it is to allow the road haulage companies more time to get thier vehicles compliant.

 

[GJH]

I believe the start has been posponed by 4 weeks. Anyone know why?

According to the TfL LEZ web site and the VOSA web page to which it links, the start date is still 4th February.

Graham

 

[Brisey]

On the BBC TV local news this morning it was stated that Transport for London have given everybody another 4 weeks grace to get their vehicles prepared for the emission zone.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

On the BBC TV local news this morning it was stated that Transport for London have given everybody another 4 weeks grace to get their vehicles prepared for the emission zone.

Thanks - we're insulated from London news up here in t' far north

I just found the story on the BBC News Web Site. It appears that the LEZ will still start on 4th February but in the first 28 days "Failing vehicles will be issued with a warning letter the first time they are seen in the zone".

Presumably that means that if a failing vehicle enters the zone more than once it will be charged for every time except the first.

Graham

 

[Mavis]

Emission

My latest e mail from the ministry
Mavis Nye
By e-mail
Our ref: RLTD 4/7/04


Dear Ms Nye

Thank you for your e-mail of 6 January addressed to the Minister of State for Transport, about the London Low Emission zone (LLEZ). As you will appreciate, the Minister receives large volumes of correspondence from members of the public and is, unfortunately, unable to answer each personally. Therefore, I have been asked to reply.

I would like to explain that Parliament gave the Mayor of London the powers to introduce road charging schemes in greater London in the Greater London Authority (GLA) Act 1999 (as amended by the Transport Act 2000), which created the Greater London Authority. Therefore the legislation being used to implement the LLEZ has already been through the Parliamentary process.

Following the creation of the Greater London Authority, Transport for London (TfL) (under the Mayor’s jurisdiction) is now responsible for the day to day management of transport services in London (with the exception of National rail at present). The LLEZ is the responsibility of the Mayor of London and is being taken forward by TfL on his behalf. The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality for those living, working or studying in London, as well as to help London and the UK move closer to achieving national and EU air quality targets. The Government remains committed to improving air quality and the Department for Transport support the aims of the LLEZ.

I would also like to explain that all affected vehicles operating within the LLEZ must be registered with TfL, although most vehicles registered in Great Britain will not need to register as this will be done automatically. Registration with TfL only needs to be done once and is free. Only vehicles that are going to be driven in the zone need to be registered. However, a vehicle that is not registered with TfL (London) and driven in the zone will be liable for the daily charge of £200.

If you require further details regarding the proposed operation of the LLEZ, you can call the LLEZ helpline on 0845 607 0009 or write to Low Emission Zone Contact Centre, PO Box 4544, Coventry, CV6 9DW.

I hope this is helpful and that it explains the position.

Yours sincerely


Gordon Rolfe
London Transport Division 5
Department for Transport
Zone 3/26
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 020 7944 8824
Fax: 020 7944 6011

 

[Rose Royce]

Well, there's a man who knows his onions, well political ones anyway. Misleading and missing the [point, but, don't worry, it's free to register! That makes it alright then.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

Well, there's a man who knows his onions, well political ones anyway. Misleading and missing the [point, but, don't worry, it's free to register! That makes it alright then.

I don't think we can call the response misleading or political.

All we have here is a DoT employee giving a factual answer - basically that it is a decision for the GLA, not the DoT.

We may not like the answer but that's no reason to shoot the messenger.

Graham

 

[Rose Royce]

Hi I have emailed Rt Hon Rosie Wintereton, Boris, London Transport and a lawyer

My Question
If everyone in the Europe is paying a one off fee for the lifetime of a vehicle then can Livingstone Legally charge £100 in and £100 out per day is this not a crime

The problem with this email is that it is factually incorrect. In Germany, for instance, the daily charge for driving a non-compliant van in the various zones is €40. It is not free. The one off fee you mention is the cost of registration which includes a sticker to show what level of emissions your vehicle produces -indicated as red, yellow or green.
Every time such mistakes are made the real case is weakened, and the stereotypical view of motorhomers as sad, anorak wearing, oddities who are a small and ignorable minority is reinforced.
It would appear, from the many posts on this subject that, yes, Livingstone can,and will, do what he likes as he has the necessary power devolved to him by government.
All protests must be addressed to him, your local GLA councillor and your local MP, preferably Tory.
You also need to get out and vote Ken out at the upcoming elections.

 

[Mavis]

Emission

(The problem with this email is that it is factually incorrect. In Germany, for instance, the daily charge for driving a non-compliant van in the various zones is €40. It is not free. The one off fee you mention is the cost of registration which includes a sticker to show what level of emissions your vehicle produces -indicated as red, yellow or green.
Every time such mistakes are made the real case is weakened, and the stereotypical view of motorhomers as sad, anorak wearing, oddities who are a small and ignorable minority is reinforced.)

I have posted on many forums in full about Germany and what i consider to be fairer way of going about this.

I apoligise for the error but Im really fighting for the London members Im angry that they will not be able to move their vans off their drives and they face such a heavy fine.
I have bombarded all offices of Ken and Boris. London transport and the House of Commons and my Local MP and even Europe for over a year now as we are Classed as M1 vehicles (leisure vehicles).
Im glad that i have managed to bring the message to so many people because people thought it was just about Heavy Goods and it isnt it is hitting us even if we are classed as PLG and also the Motorhomes in Question are not really that old. in some cases we are talking about Motorhomes that are onlly 4 years old.
Please make sure the DVLA have the correct weight on file as 2 that I know of are lighter than the DVLA records.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Supertractorman]

Interesting to see in the Commercial vehicle press that HGV operators are to be given more time to convert existing vehicles.

David

 

[Mavis]

Emission

As the date draws nearer for the start of the LEZ I have had a reply from the European Parliment

Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 4:20:19 PM
Subject: A(2007)22511GCH/sm

A(2007)22511GCH/sm

Dear Ms. Nye,
Thank you for your message to the European Parliament concerning classification of motorhomes.
This is a matter for the UK authorities, in this case, it would appear, the DVLA.
The European Parliament has no competence in this matter, which is internal to the UK .
Even if the classification of vehicles is the result originally of an EU Directive, such Directives, once agreed by the Member States, are then transposed by each member-state into its own national law.
The rules concerning the classification of vehicles in the UK will therefore be found in UK law or ministerial decision.
In your situation, I would contact the Ministry of Transport to find out what the DVLA does not appear to know.
You might also enlist the help of one of the motoring organizations such as the AA or RAC and perhaps the Caravan Club of Great Britain, which must have had similar enquiries.
Sincerely,
Graham R.CHAMBERS
Principal Administrator
-----------------------------------------------
European Parliament
General Directorate for Information
Correspondence with Citizens Unit

So This is as far as I can go
All correspondence indicates that the
power/responsibility is totally that of the GLA and further lobbying
of the EU/Westminster would be fruitless.
Thanks for all the support and I can always say I tried
Regards mavis

 

[Rose Royce]

I may have made criticism in the past about the methods being used to right this massive wrong being perpetrated on some of our London cousins, but to prove that I care about their plight and that I don’t just moan without getting up off my bum and doing something please read on.



As you can see this was sent to Mr Livingstone last December. To date, despite a reminder, no reply!


From: "rmurray" <rmurray@suttonlea.org>
To: mayor@london.gov .uk
Subject: L E Z
Date: 11-Dec-2007 17:29:15 GMT

Dear Mr Livingstone,

Re London Emissions Zone

I am a member of a number of forums related to motor homes.
As you are aware, many motor home owners are vexed by the
proposals by TfL to charge older, diesel, motor homes which
are non-compliant.
I appreciate that there is a need to reduce harmful
emissions which may be produced by diesel engines, but
cannot believe that it was your intention to so severely
punish the small number of owners of, admittedly,
non-compliant vehicles.
As a result of these proposals, many owners of such vehicles
will be forced to scrap them, as making them compliant is
either not technically feasible or prohibitively expensive.
I know it is within your power to exempt motor homes from
the daily charge and would urge you to give this some more
thought as many people consider the implementation of
charging in this situation to be iniquitous.

Regards, Robert Murray

This from TfL as a response to my email of 22/1 which is repeated in their email. Again, despite a reminder, no response!


Murray,
22nd January 2008
Re: London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) Web Enquiry
Thank you for your enquiry.
Your enquiry was:
Whilst agreeing with the need to reduce certain emissions I find that the "penalties" to be levied
for those vehicles which do not comply, to be excessive and against natural justice. Looking at
the model for cities in Germany, for instance, shows a more tolerable figure of €40. Many
owners of non-compliant motorhomes live within the zone and are now virtually captive as they
cannot leave home without paying. Surely that is not the intention?
Your reference number is: L1682675
Please retain this number as you will need to quote it should you contact us regarding this
enquiry.
Our dedicated Contact Centre team will deal with your enquiry, and a response will be sent via
your preferred method of contact within 2 working days.
Daljit Mahal
Operations Manager
Yours sincerely
London Low Emission Zone

Might someone take this case to the European Court of Human Rights. Certainly this legislation (if it is indeed thus) is retrospective and against natural justice and there must be a case for Livingstone to answer re contravention of rights?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Road Runner]

Daljit Mahal
Operations Manager
Yours sincerely
London Low Emission Zone

Say's it all really

 

[Rose Royce]

Yesterday I posted my enquiry to TfL regarding the LEZ as repeated here:

Whilst agreeing with the need to reduce certain emissions I find that the "penalties" to be levied
for those vehicles which do not comply, to be excessive and against natural justice. Looking at
the model for cities in Germany, for instance, shows a more tolerable figure of €40. Many
owners of non-compliant motorhomes live within the zone and are now virtually captive as they
cannot leave home without paying. Surely that is not the intention?

Today I have received a written reply from the Coventry office of Daljit Mahal (in an envelope on which has been handwritten “AIRMAIL”! Following is his response.


Thank you for your recent enquiry received on 22nd January 2008, regarding the LEZ scheme.
The daily charge of £100 for motor homes is a substantial amount, because if what (sic) was only £20 or £30, most customers (my italics)would be happy to pay this amount, but this would not achieve the objective it was meant to do, as vehicles would still be polluting the air. The objective is cleaner air for Greater London.
The LEZ Scheme isn’t designed to be a net revenue generating Scheme. The revenues of the Scheme aren’t expected to offset the costs of implementing and operating the Scheme. There may be some gross revenues from the LEZ Scheme raised through charge and penalty charge payments and these would contribute towards the operating costs of the Scheme.


Nice to see that he has read and comprehended my letter and has so succinctly answered the questions posed therein!!

 

[Rose Royce]

Here’s another letter on the subject which I sent to David Cameron via his website:


Comments:
Although late in the day,I am contacting you with regard to the proposed penalties to be levied on diesel powered motor homes on crossing into and out of this zone. Whilst fully appreciating that harmful emissions need to be reduced the charge of £100 per
crossing is wildly excessive and against natural justice. In Germany, for instance,the charge in their similar scheme is €40. I hope that you may be able to convince Mayor Livingstone of the unfairness of this charge. Does Boris Johnson,when he is elected, plan to address this matter?

And here’s his reply:

Thank you for your email which has come into David Cameron's inbox via the
Conservative Party website.

We are most grateful to you for your comments and we certainly take note of the points you make. I have also ensured that Boris Johnson's team have your email for their further consideration.


Thank you again for writing.


Yours sincerely,

David Beal
Correspondence Secretary
David Cameron's Office
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Rose Royce]

Here's the reply to my email to Ken

:HOur ref: TFL074681

31 January 2008

Dear Mr Murray

London Low Emission Zone: Motorcaravans

Thank you for your email of 12 December 2007 to the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, regarding the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). As a member of the Low Emission Team I have been asked to respond on the Mayor’s behalf. Firstly let me apologise that you have not received a response sooner; this was due to an administrative error.

The aim of the LEZ is to improve air quality in London by deterring the most individually polluting vehicles from driving in the area. London has the worst air pollution in the UK and amongst the worst in Europe. Air pollution affects the quality of life of a large number of Londoners, especially those with respiratory and cardiovascular conditions. It was estimated that in 2005 some 1000 premature deaths and similar number of hospital admissions occurred due to poor air quality in London. Many more people experience discomfort as a result of air quality aggravating existing conditions.

Whilst we are sympathetic to your situation, Transport for London (TfL) does not discount or exempt motorcaravans from the LEZ as there are no technical reasons why such vehicles could not comply with the scheme. Motorcaravans have similar emissions characteristics to the Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) and Light Goods Vehicles (LGVs) from which they are derived, and as such TfL and the Mayor consider that they should be subject to the same emissions requirements whether they are for commercial or private use.

Operators of vehicles which do not meet the specified emissions standards for the LEZ have several options to comply with the scheme including:
• Certifying that an eligible engine meets the required standard.
• Fitting particulate abatement equipment to the vehicle. It should be possible to fit such equipment to reduce a vehicle’s particulate matter emissions sufficiently to meet the LEZ emissions standard. Normally this would either be a particulate trap or a partial filter. Information on approved abatement equipment and suppliers for fitting such equipment can be found on TfL’s website at Link Removed, together with the processes for getting approved abatement equipment certified once fitted.
• Re-engine a vehicle with an engine that meets the LEZ emissions standards
• Converting a vehicle to gas
• Purchasing a newer vehicle that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
• Paying a daily charge.

If you require any more information on the Low Emission Zone, Transport for London (TfL) have set up a dedicated enquiries service to help vehicle owners understand what the LEZ means for them and what they may have to do to comply with the scheme. TfL’s website Link Removed provides much detailed information about the LEZ, alternatively call the dedicated call centre on 0845 607 0009.

Thank you once again for writing, I am sorry this is not the response you were hoping for.

Yours sincerely




Rhona Munck
Strategy Officer
London Low Emission Zone

 

[vava1]

This may not be a popular post, but it reflects my honest personal views.

I'm not supporting this petition.

I'm not persuaded at all as to why motorhomes are somehow a "special case" and thus should be exempted.
If we are are not going to totally destroy our (only) planet in a few generations by our continuing greed and selfishness, then we are ALL going have to start changing our behaviours, big time.

I applaud all and any attempts to clean up the air quality in big, traffic congested cities such as London.

Unless the policies adopted hurt enough (me, as well as everyone else), they just ain't going to work.

(As an aside - it really doesn't look wonderful when the petition title even spells "emissions" incorrectly.)

GET REAL! Motorhomes would drive in to London, stay a while, and drive out again. they are not delivery vans, service vehicles or buses driving about the capital all day and every day poluting the atmosphere.

THAT'S why the should be exempt, these are our LEISURE vehicles, our symbols of freedom and independence we have worked all our lives the achieve!

IF you really feel that strongly about polution, you should not have any vehicle with a petrol or diesel engine all.

 

[stagman]

[THAT'S why the should be exempt, these are our LEISURE vehicles, our symbols of freedom and independence we have worked all our lives the achieve!

Freedom that's gone from this country years ago when our so called Lady Thatcher thought she ruled the world and then followed on by this bunch of slimey hypocrits>they probabally sorted out their camp before they introduced these rules.This government keeps on picking off minority groups,to fund their voting campaigns and their pockets.I have given my sig to the petition and hope many more follow ,but sadly I think the only way out of it with this not listening dictatorship government is to leave the country and leave them get on and look after the immigrants they so love. On another note went to London a cpl wks back so me and my wife could see Neil Young in concert,thought about taking the Motorhome and staying at a club site in Crystal Palace but was so confused and scared on getting a huge bill from Ken Livingston decided to leave it at home,and went by coach,how sad is that.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}