Lithium vs Lead Acid. Some Facts ! (1 Viewer)

[Lenny HB]

Done deal. See you Late Jan / Early Feb

When you have b***ed the new Lithiums?

 

[Zigisla]

When you have b***ed the new Lithiums?

?

 

[two]

Just as there are different forms of LeadAcid battery technology, there are also several choices using Lithium and some will be better than others. I think the most important part is the BMS and some offer far more protection of your valuable batteries than others. For a battery to last, you need to look after it, whatever technology it's using.

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[Fontie]

As for lithium not charging in minus temperatures, how often in the UK specially South of Watford Gap do we get minus and how often inside a well insulated van would it get to minus I would think hardly ever if at all, those days/part of days it did get below freezing the BMS would take care of things.

 

[Gellyneck]

how often in the UK .......... do we get minus

Been minus numbers in most of Scotland for the last week or so. Lowest so far -10C.
Think -27.2C is still the lowest recorded temperature (Braemar and Altnaharra). -24.?C for Glasgow.
1963 average winter temperature for Scotland was 0C.

 

[eddie]

Been minus numbers in most of Scotland for the last week or so. Lowest so far -10C.
Think -27.2C is still the lowest recorded temperature (Braemar and Altnaharra). -24.?C for Glasgow.
1963 average winter temperature for Scotland was 0C.

Scottish people won't buy Lithium batteries! They'd rather throw another Haggis on the Hob for heat and light

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[Gellyneck]

Scottish people won't buy Lithium batteries! They'd rather throw another Haggis on the Hob for heat and light

Don't be silly. Heat and light comes from candles.
Haggis in a hamster cage with an exercise wheel is for pumping the water.

 

[eddie]

Don't be silly. Heat and light comes from candles.
Haggis in a hamster cage with an exercise wheel is for pumping the water.

I stand corrected

 

[CazPaul]

With the video Charles is comparing a Lithium to flooded batteries & AGM, he has not compared it to a proper leisure battery i.e. a Gel. Gels are not much more expensive than flooded these days and are known to last up to 10 years, this would be a much fairer comparison but you won't get it from Charles he has a big dislike of Gels.
obviously Lithium are far better technically and a Gel has the disadvantage of long charge times and they don't like high current loads but on a cost comparison which is what this video is about I would have thought a Gel would come out tops.

Especially as our 2 x140 Gels are original and in their 15th year. Lithiums sound great but would they last roughly that long if used in the same way

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[Jim]

if used in the same way

They can't be used in the same way as I use my Lithium. In summer I can hammer the batteries, leccy kettle, toaster, loading all the machine batteries, laptops, tablets ect Till the lithiums are really low by 3;30pm. Then know by 7pm and sun alone they will be chock full ready to go again. Gels will do the first part but they are just too slow to get back up in a short time

 

[CazPaul]

They can't be used in the same way as I use my Lithium. In summer I can hammer the batteries, leccy kettle, toaster, loading all the machine batteries, laptops, tablets ect Till the lithiums are really low by 3;30pm. Then know by 7pm and sun alone they will be chock full ready to go again. Gels will do the first part but they are just too slow to get back up in a short time

But these have been used in the same way, off EHU and used for all sorts. Yes your correct they won't have charged back up as quick but the main point is they have provided all power and are in their 15th year.

Lithiums do sound great though I am just trying to understand what benefit they would give apart from weight saving

 

[nicholsong]

Lead/acid kept topped-up with a B2B, a bit of solar, no EHU, off-grid and no 230v equipment, do just as well.

It's all about taking care of them.

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[HandyAndy]

But these have been used in the same way, off EHU and used for all sorts. Yes your correct they won't have charged back up as quick but the main point is they have provided all power and are in their 15th year.

Lithiums do sound great though I am just trying to understand what benefit they would give apart from weight saving

You don't seem to be taking it on board...

Trojan battery info

Trojan Lithium (Trillium) life cycle chart

Trojan Deep cycle Gel life cycle chart.

If you absolutely abused the Lithiums they would last 10.95 years ( cycled every day to 100% discharge)
If you totally molly coddled the Gels they would last 7.53 years (cycled every day to only 20% discharge

 

[CazPaul]

You don't seem to be taking it on board...

Trojan battery info

Trojan Lithium (Trillium) life cycle chart

View attachment 347491

Trojan Deep cycle Gel life cycle chart.
View attachment 347492

I am taking it on board, lithiums sounds great but you can't ask any more than providing all power for 15 years and still going strong can you.

 

[Richard n Ann]

You don't seem to be taking it on board...

Trojan battery info

Trojan Lithium (Trillium) life cycle chart

View attachment 347491

Trojan Deep cycle Gel life cycle chart.
View attachment 347492

If you absolutely abused the Lithiums they would last 10.95 years ( cycled every day to 100% discharge)
If you totally molly coddled the Gels they would last 7.53 years (cycled every day to only 20% discharge

How come my 3 year old lithium phone battery is knackered then? I never let it go lower than about 30%
Also my ipod touch 5 hardly lasts an hour off it's charger nowadays ?

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[HandyAndy]

How come my 3 year old lithium phone battery is knackered then? I never let it go lower than about 30%
Also my ipod touch 5 hardly lasts an hour off it's charger nowadays ?

Different battery chemistry
High heat environment

 

[Richard n Ann]

Different battery chemistry
High heat environment

Oh the ipod got hot in the van once, I tried to use it and it said it needed to cool off a bit ? not aware the phone ever got hot.

 

[HandyAndy]

internally they do, it's all crammed into an airtight container right next to the processors which create heat..
Also leaving them on charge all the time kills them quicker.

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[busbuddy]

i know the price of wet and lithium batteries but what else is needed for a lithium install?

 

[Robert Clark]

i know the price of wet and lithium batteries but what else is needed for a lithium install?

B2B charger

 

[Pausim]

How come my 3 year old lithium phone battery is knackered then? I never let it go lower than about 30%
Also my ipod touch 5 hardly lasts an hour off it's charger nowadays ?

Probably lithium cobalt, certainly not the LiFePO4 used for motorhome leisure batteries. There is no comparison.

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[nicholsong]

Oh the ipod got hot in the van once, I tried to use it and it said it needed to cool off a bit ? not aware the phone ever got hot.

Had the same with a Samsung phone we were using on the dashboard in a cradle with a Satnav App installed.

 

[nicholsong]

B2B charger

I know Jim posted earlier that mos Lithiums advise installing a B2B.

I find that hard to understand considering the better performance of those batteries. Maybe somebody can explain the logic.

As I have posted elsewhere I would certainly encourage B2B use for lead/acid, but only if one moves regularly - they are not much use for 2 weeks on a site if no EHU, unless you want to annoy the neighbours by runnng your engine.

Geoff

 

[telsdog]

I have 2 gel batteries and have just had a 60a B2B fitted. Reading comments here about gels not liking a high charge rate, have I wasted my money ?

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[Robert Clark]

I know Jim posted earlier that mos Lithiums advise installing a B2B.

I find that hard to understand considering the better performance of those batteries. Maybe somebody can explain the logic.

As I have posted elsewhere I would certainly encourage B2B use for lead/acid, but only if one moves regularly - they are not much use for 2 weeks on a site if no EHU, unless you want to annoy the neighbours by runnng your engine.

Geoff

You shouldn’t connect lithium batteries directly to an alternator apparently, so a B2B charger would be required for charging on the move.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have 2 gel batteries and have just had a 60a B2B fitted. Reading comments here about gels not liking a high charge rate, have I wasted my money ?

Their won't be any problems providing you set to the correct charge profile. I think you will find the initial chare rate will be about 40-50amps unless they are completely flat, and soon drops to 20-25 amps and that is shared between your two batteries.
What Gels don't like is high discharge rates.

If you have a German van you probably won't see a vast advantage over the standard split charge set up. I've seen a 44 amp charge rate from the standard split charge set up on one of my Hymer's.

 

[HandyAndy]

You "can" connect an alternator to lithium but you can't leave it ticking over as there is not enough fan speed to keep the alternator cool, so it can overheat if it's really cranking the amps in.
The reason the amps flow so easily into lithium batteries is they have very low resistance unlike sealed lead acid etc which tend to be self limiting on charging rate.

You can get an external programmable regulator"box of tricks" with a temp sensor that you fit in the alternator, this then dials in as many amps as is safe and reins it in a bit if the temps get too crazy.

B2B charger will work but unless that has temp control, you'll be in the same hot water with the alternator if you let it sit there idling instead of driving the thing..

If however you have a smaller alternator, they are 100% duty cycle rated so can feed those amps 24/7 at idle fine, usually these are 80 amp and under.
Most of todays 120 amp and above alternators are NOT 100% duty cycle.

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[Lenny HB]

I thought most Motorhomes had an uprated 160 or 180 amp alternator so with loads of spare capacity I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

 

[Jim]

I thought most Motorhomes had an uprated 160 or 180 amp alternator so with loads of spare capacity I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

They'll be smart alternators though, hence the need for the B2B

 

[HandyAndy]

I thought most Motorhomes had an uprated 160 or 180 amp alternator so with loads of spare capacity I wouldn't think it would be a problem.

That in itself is a little misnomer, it's the same alternator, just wired differently. You can DIY it if you know what you are doing. Change it from star to delta config and change the pulley and you'll have double the output.

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