Lithium - Gel - Lead

[P Bentley]

I requested and extra solar panel from the dealer for our new purchase (Challanger 250 Graphite Premium Ford based 170 hp ) and he said it would need a new controller and also a bigger leisure battery which made sense and was what I expected, I think its either 130 or 170 AH.
I know that Battery technology has improved from the commonly used Lead Acid and the next step up was a Gel, which as far as I can gather is bit lighter and more efficient, and the package of purchase and fitting (without violating my 7 year damp protection) was about e1200 ish. Plenty more than I could do it for myself but easier, neater and warranty proof to get them to do it.
So far so good
However he also said that lithium battery was available which took the price up to 4200, which to be honest sounded extravagant so went for the gel.
I had already been looking at lithium 250 AH for the project 3 renovation completion which I am planning to be totally off grid and they were about 2000. so the dealers offer didnt look very attractive at all.

I can always change my mind, because the van wont be delivered till December, so with that in mind I have been scouring the battery thread to see if there is any major gain to be had by installing lithium, that would actually be cost effective over the next 5 to 10 years as opposed to a gel battery.

The only benefit I can see isn't financial, but is that it might save me a few kilos on my pay load, and provide longer amp hours for the less weight, but I may have to make alternator upgrade or insert some other charging device. (bear in mind we will off grid as much, if not more, than on it)

Reading many of the threads I can see that some people have changed to lithium and I am interested in what benefits they have experienced (especially off grid)

Cheers

 

[funflair]

Advantages, faster charge from solar or alternator/B2B, higher discharge current so OK to run inverter loads, 100% useable capacity so more power per weight and volume, lighter than lead if you are tight on payload.

We have 480ah LiFePO4 and 520 watts of solar so in the summer we just pretend that we are plugged in so 2kw electric kettle, coffee machine microwave induction hob for outside, remoska etc etc.

Disadvantages, price.

 

[Raul]

The difference between lead and lithium, is worlds apart in many aspects. All lead acid batteries, that is: wet, gel, or agm, they are all lead acid, the heavier the better cycle life, and better capacity. If you get a lighter gel( lead acid), you get less battery, containing less lead grids and less active material. Don’t get confused by gel terminology, it’s only used as a electrolyte containment around lead grids. Same for Absorbed Glass Matt, that are soaked in electrolyte, wrapped around lead grid plates.
If you do, or not need lithium, it’s down to your usage. Some get on fine with a gel battery, some can’t do without lithium. In today’s technology and availability, I think is a great sacrilege to depend on lead on a mobile installation. But that’s me others may differ. Lead may suit ok static systems, where you don’t lump them about.

 

[suavecarve]

Why not get him to price up the inverter, the B2B, the upgraded solar and solar unit and say "thank you very much, I ll keep the original battery". That might keep your warranty together and you can drop in your own lithium, just make sure all the stuff is lithium ready.

 

[Tombola]

Why not get him to price up the inverter, the B2B, the upgraded solar and solar unit and say "thank you very much, I ll keep the original battery". That might keep your warranty together and you can drop in your own lithium, just make sure all the stuff is lithium ready.

good solution.

And also P Bentley you can get lithiums with blutooth monitoring and bms far cheaper nowadays than £2000.
look for the KS energy banner at the top of this thread too for a funster discount.
If you use serious power then lithium is the way to go if you want it replacing quickly.

good luck, there is plenty advice on this subject here

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[pappajohn]

Of course, all the British made batteries come with a union flag emblem attached.

 

[Yorick]

Of course, all the British made batteries come with a union flag emblem attached.

Please sir. Pappajohn is taking the piss.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Please sir. Pappajohn is taking the piss.

So he should

 

[P Bentley]

suavecarve says
"make sure all the stuff is lithium ready."

that's the bit I am finding "too" much info on and it muddies the waters, but I will work it out I am sure.

Tombola says
"there is plenty advice on this subject here"

I have been sifting through it and there is indeed "plenty" and then plenty more

I need a set up that will cope with longer duration off grid and that my solar would be capable of charging
The only elect running in the van is the fan for the diesel heater, the water pump and the leds
the fridge is gas (or mains or bat or engine) and hot water is gas.

Am I right about that Lithium is more power for less weight?

The plan is in december jan, when we pick it up, is to go on a month or two "shake down mini tour" and see how long it all lasts , water , gas, batteries, etc while we are still in France. *(as well as what sort of clothing bedding cooking stuff is the most practical.

Once we have worked out how to get the best out of what we have, we can then make the changes or upgrades required for the longer trips that we expect to run into several months if not years at time.

I am trying to become as informed as I can about what those upgrades might be and the suggestions and pointers in the right direction so far, have given me plenty to be getting on with.

I think a retro fit will probably be better because the dealer does seem to ask for a ridiculous mark up and I am sure I will save a considerable amount by getting stuff specialist fitted.

 

[Steve and Denise]

We have a full lithium setup on our motorhome but I would not post any information on here about it just in case it offended anyone

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[jessthedog]

You cant beat Britishvolt.

 

[suavecarve]

suavecarve says
"make sure all the stuff is lithium ready."

that's the bit I am finding "too" much info on and it muddies the waters, but I will work it out I am sure.

Tombola says
"there is plenty advice on this subject here"

I have been sifting through it and there is indeed "plenty" and then plenty more

I need a set up that will cope with longer duration off grid and that my solar would be capable of charging
The only elect running in the van is the fan for the diesel heater, the water pump and the leds
the fridge is gas (or mains or bat or engine) and hot water is gas.

Am I right about that Lithium is more power for less weight?

The plan is in december jan, when we pick it up, is to go on a month or two "shake down mini tour" and see how long it all lasts , water , gas, batteries, etc while we are still in France. *(as well as what sort of clothing bedding cooking stuff is the most practical.

Once we have worked out how to get the best out of what we have, we can then make the changes or upgrades required for the longer trips that we expect to run into several months if not years at time.

I am trying to become as informed as I can about what those upgrades might be and the suggestions and pointers in the right direction so far, have given me plenty to be getting on with.

I think a retro fit will probably be better because the dealer does seem to ask for a ridiculous mark up and I am sure I will save a considerable amount by getting stuff specialist fitted.

My bit, just make sure the B2B has a lithium profile (Just buy a victron 30 or 40 ah), the leads are "person enough" to take the amperage (probably good enough in a new van) The solar charger unit is also probably good enough in a new van. Make sure inverter is "person enough" to deliver what is required for you.
Lithium = less weight, more power, lot more expensive, lasts longer, recharges quicker.
If youre trialling the van in France in december January I would get the lithium before you went and put 400 watts on the roof.
No rush for buying the batteries (before you get the van) if the set up is there.

The bit about your warranty and you being available to do it. What would negate your warranty ? hole in the ceiling is relatively easy as you can jsut chase the solar wires through the existing hole and dont screw down the extra panel and just use the heavy duty glue. I would be tempted to ask about that..

 

[Badknee]

I hope your not using any British flagged equipment ?

 

[Googlebot]

I have lithium and wouldn’t be without it. Charges much quicker than the lead acid did and half the weight for twice the capacity.

Gel is an option but lithium prices have come down lots the last few years and given the time they last, make sense for something you will keep years.

For those who are just trying to pick about a previous thread, this is motorhome fun. If you don’t agree with a poster and their views, you can use the ignore button for the the thread. You can also use the ignore button for the OP, there really is no need to pile on.

 

[autorouter]

In case you need some numbers to ponder over, note that the maximum recommended charging/discharging amps of a lead-acid battery is about C/5, where C is the amp-hours (Ah) capacity. So 200Ah of battery can charge at maximum 200/5 = 40A.

If you want a B2B charger, which charges the leisure batteries from the alternator, you can get various outputs from 20A to 70A. The higher the output the faster the charging and the less driving time to full charge. For a 60A B2B you'd need to have 300Ah of lead-acid battery. Lithiums can charge much faster, and you could find a 100Ah lithium battery that will be OK with 60A of charging amps.

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[Hayesdec]

Lithium batteries
I’ve just had my motorhome upgraded to lithium. I went to Oaktree Motorhome’s in Nottingham. I phoned Rob and told him how we used our motorhome and Rob just worked out what was best for us. Which was perfect. We have just been away for 6 days nr Brighton with no electricity and we were fine. It wasn’t that expensive. Everything is Bluetooth so I can see how much power we are using. When we had lead acid batteries (2. ) We we’re ok in the summer but in winter once you loose the power we found it hard to get it back unless you can get on hook up.
We are both retired so use our van all the time. Also less weight. And we all need that.
So yes I would definitely recommend lithium.
Regards
Richard & Janet

 

[Wyvern]

We are relative newby’s to motorhoming and only had two PVCs having taken the advice from here beforehand to rent various types of MH. Our first van was inevitably Ducato based with 200ah lead acid no B2B charger. Added a B2B which was a significant upgrade. We found our selves wanting to be and more off grid and tour all year round. We had diesel heating and gas underslung for cooking only.

If we stayed out in the winter for a few days we found it hard managing the battery, solar was not much good and you can only get so much on a PVC roof.

New van (a Spriner 4x4 170) where we had 200ah lithium, 115watt solar and 40ah B2B and 3kw inverter (yes I know over the top). Game changer! Yes it is much more expensive BUT 2 things I would say to that. Over the ownership of the van the difference reduces somewhat as you get many more cycles out of lithium. BUT more importantly, the price difference as a % of the cost of the van and the ability to enjoy its use in the winter MUCH more, makes it a no brainier IMO …..assuming it is affordable of course!

IF we get down to about 20% (takes about 3/4 days) we start up the motor for 20 mins or so and we have another day.

We had the wiring installed to allow us to add another 200ah plus the B2B up to 80ah which we have done. Never need EHU now. BUT we have two electric bikes to charge on the move PLUS a whole heap of film equipment (We do contact wildlife filming all over Europe).

So depends on what you want but most reputable fitters will do the sums plus requirements and for most people 200ah plus B2B etc will be more than enough….it really is a game changer for us And would never go back to Led Acid.

 

[Krumpli]

We have so far done well with Lead. 12 years of roaming around Greece, Turkey and Eastern Europe. To generalise we have travelled 8 to 10 months of the year and most of that is "wild camping". It' not the cost of Lithium which puts me off... so far there does not seem to be a need for it.

 

[Tengyneer]

We have B2B, essential if you drive between stopovers as you may as well utilise the charging opportunity, 420w of solar and 300amp lithium battery. We have an inverter and run hairdryer, coffee machine, toaster, bike chargers etc, never been below 50% battery capacity on our travels. I'd say it's best thing we did, gained 54kg which offset the electric bikes, charges so quickly gives us endless days of off grid and would say that we'd be struggling to ever use all our battery power.

 

[Richard n Ann]

We have so far done well with Lead. 12 years of roaming around Greece, Turkey and Eastern Europe. To generalise we have travelled 8 to 10 months of the year and most of that is "wild camping". It' not the cost of Lithium which puts me off... so far there does not seem to be a need for it.

We are similar, just 80ah gel and 150w solar, don't need hook up at all.

Can't understand wanting all kitchen appliances electric with all the hassle and expense that goes with it when everything is made to work on gas. One exception: hair dryer, thank goodness Ann isn't too bothered, all I had to make work are the ceramic straighteners

Edit: Disclaimer IMO

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[P Bentley]

It is fascinating to read the technical and anecdotal information on the pros of going the lithium root.
I do understand the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" (thanks Krumpli ) and our plans are to spend at least that sort of average traveling in the next 5 years with 51 countries on the target list.
That said and having read the information on here I am still drawn to the lithium because of the weight and extra power and we want to travel light.

I am now getting a much better picture of the type of equipment required and after the initial shake down tour (if we consider the change to be prudent (it might not even be required) I will use a recognised professional fitter to install and check the Lithium system and that it functions as it should, and is tailor made to meet our requirements, and armed with all the tech info so far from the experienced and helpful posters on here, I will know what I need to hear when (if) we get the work done,.

The major plus side of this site (imo) is the vast range of ways in which people use and equip their vehicles, and the willingness (of the majority) to share the experience they have with others who take to the road.

 

[funflair]

P Bentley in your opening post you say that LiFePO4 option was available from the dealer but at a cost of course, did this additional cost also include the likes of B2B charger and different mains/solar chargers as was it purely a different battery?

 

[P Bentley]

Funfair, I get the impression that it took the cost from 1200 to over 4000 for the fitting etc this includes the panel and larger battery and different solar controller to cope with the increase from 150 to 320 w. (I might be mistaken on that but I am seeing the dealer when I get back from the ship in April with a few tech questions and will ask.

 

[two]

You can spend a lot for the comfort of being off grid and pretending that you're not.
You could save a lot by curtailing your use whilst off grid (and still survive)...