Lithium Confusion (again, sorry)

[Ingwe]

Having only one leisure battery and it being problematic to add a second one to our van, we are trying to decide whether to incur the cost and buy a lithium battery. We do some off grid camping and just about manage a couple of nights relying on one 120watt solar panel (in the day obviously).

So I've been reading the threads on lithium batteries and, whilst I'm a lot clearer on some aspects, I remain confused about what I would need to alter in the van to have a lithium battery.
I was looking at the Eco-Tree 110ah battery advertised in MHF magazine at £750 odd. It sells itself as a drop-in replacement presumably for a lead acid or gel battery.

Has anything changed with regards to lithium batteries since the thread in Jan/Feb this year (I think started by Colyboy) which suggested the batteries are not simply drop in, you need to have a charger with a lithium profile, your solar controller may need to be replaced by MPPT type controller and you possibly also need a B2B charger (the latter may be me misunderstanding something) amongst other things.

If a £750 battery could just be dropped in this would be a great solution for us but not if we have to carry out lots of other alterations/additions. Hopefully, this is an evolving technology and the facility will increase as the price drops.

 

[Robert Clark]

That would be a great question to ask the supplier, and please post their reply here for the benefit of others.

My understanding having fitted Lithiums myself is that your solar regulator and battery charger would need to have a lithium setting and that you'd need to also have a B2B as lithium batteries should not be connected directly to an alternator as they can cause it to overheat.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

That would be a great question to ask the supplier, and please post their reply here for the benefit of others.

My understanding having fitted Lithiums myself is that your solar regulator and battery charger would need to have a lithium setting and that you'd need to also have a B2B as lithium batteries should not be connected directly to an alternator as they can cause it to overheat.

That was the advice that I received as well

 

[Ingwe]

I will write to Eco tree and post my the correspondence here when I've received a reply.
Thanks
Update: my email to: info@ecotreelithium.co.uk has just bounced back saying email undelivered. Not too promising a start!

 

[andy63]

Hi..ill post this link again..I thought it was a reasonable well balanced article..
And addresses some of your concerns..

How to Find Happiness With LiFePO4 (Lithium-Ion) Batteries

By: Rob Beckers You have just sold your first-born into slavery, remortgaged the house, and bought yourself a lithium-ion battery! Now you want to know how to take care of your precious new purchase: How to best charge lithium-iron batteries, how to discharge them, and how to get the maximum...

www.solacity.com

I cant remember if it covers the need for a dc to dc charger ,but that's accepted as an important item to have with lithium for various reasons..ie a proper regulated charge ..current limiting and protecting the alternator..the rest I think is covered..
Andy..

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[Ingwe]

andy63-thank you for the link. Sorry I missed it in my research of the threads on lithium.

 

[Ingwe]

Having just finished my first read of andy63's posted link, the first thing I need to establish in relation to my van and its set-up is what voltage is currently supplied by the solar panel. It seems a minimum of 13.6v is required. I've no idea what my panels put out but can check that. The other thing is that, so far as I'm aware, there are no user-switchable controls in the solar controller and it has a float function. This needs to be disabled with the lithium battery so it appears that, as a minimum, I'd need a different solar controller.
Back now for the second reading.........

 

[colyboy]

I am this weekend about fit my “drop in “ Eco Tree lithium batteries. Eco Tree assured be that they could be just dropped in! Will report back when tested.

Colyboy

 

[colyboy]

INGWE
Eco tree also trade under Transporter Energy. Try:- info@ transporterenergy.co.uk speak to Paul and mention you are member of MHF . Tel:- 01933 808038.

colyboy

 

[TCG]

INGWE
Eco tree also trade under Transporter Energy. Try:- info@ transporterenergy.co.uk speak to Paul and mention you are member of MHF . Tel:- 01933 808038.

colyboy

Hi Colyboy
do we get a MF discount

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[colyboy]

Colyboy here again!

I have recently spoken to Paul of Eco Tree and suggested to him I might like to put something on MHF to explain why their batteries are better than others !! So as to sort out the confusion re Lithium. I see they took advertising in our. MHF magazine.

Colyboy

 

[colyboy]

TGG. working on that!

 

[andy63]

I've no idea what my panels put out but can check that.

Its not necessarily the panel voltage but the regulator output voltage that is important.. a good mppt regulator with a lithium profile ..
On the float charge side of things I seem to remember the article saying that it was acceptable for the various chargers to have a float voltage..as long as it was low enough voltage it appears to be a good enough compromise...
All the lithium profiles on all the chargers I've seen have a float on their lithium profile even though its accepted that it's not required..maybe its just because we are in a transition period between lead acid and lithium technologies..
Andy

 

[Ingwe]

colyboy-I forwarded my email to Eco Tree to the other trading style Transport Energy and that too has not been delivered.
I have things to do but may give them a ring later. I did want the answers in writing for me to consider.

 

[Lenny HB]

A lot of suppliers say their batteries are a drop in replacement, OK they will work but you won't get the best out of them. If you are spending all that money on a new battery surely it is worth spending a few more bob to ensure you get the best out of them & a long life.

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[berni109]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114409864097
And https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/calling-all-you-lithium-battery-experts.232307/ u dont need to read it all but there are a couple of recommendations for ultramax.
I am at the shall I go for it or not moment.
Dont recall seeing anything at this price point before and it comes with a 240v lithium charger.
My solar charger '350 duo' is good for lithium and also provides a trickle for the vehicle battery. However the ebl in my van can manage agm or gel which whilst not ideal (from what I have read) will not harm the lithium battery.
Hth.

 

[63720]

Motorhome Batteries - Lithium Leisure Batteries - KS Energy UK

KS Energy Lithium leisure batteries for the motorhome, boat, marine, camper, caravan and camping market

www.ksenergy.co.uk

This makes interesting reading. I am considering similar to you when the time comes. We have a Hymer so I emailed Udo at Schaudt and he advised setting the EBL charger to Gel and it would work, perhaps with the addition of a B2B at moderate cost.

 

[Ingwe]

As @LennyHB (and others) have said, to get the best from your lithium battery, you've got to incur some additional expenditure. In my case it looks like a B2B charger and fitting and a new solar controller and fitting. It probably adds 50% to the price of the battery at least. In my case, it makes me think twice about making the change. I know a lot of you are happy and able to fit the B2B charger and solar controllers yourselves but this doesn't apply to me. So,it's all additional expenditure. I'm not whinging; just resting whether the simple drop in replacement boast is true.

 

[two]

I'd have Lithium if I was sure I could get the best from them but it'd need a complete revision of the 12V habitation circuits and I'm not convinced of the benefits (other than weight saving). The current method of mix 'n match reminds me of the 70's with HiFi systems and trying in vain to get better sound. I'm sure a "drop-in" solution would work, just like many other mis-matched arrangements, but it could just swap one set of problems for another.
I think it's better to be patient and wait for manufacturers to build with Lithium in mind.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Changing the charging stuff is not just about having a lithium compatible charging profile, it's about actually maximising the recharge capability of your battery. Lithium allows a deeper discharge so you can actually use most of you battery unlike the 50% of lead-acid. In turn you can usually recharge lithium faster (higher current) your older battery.

The MPPT based solar controller is usually more efficient than the standard PWM, so you can get a bit more out of your existing panel. Those gains might be small, especially on a low overall wattage panel system.

More seriously, if driving so recharging off an alternator, a B2B is going to put much more juice back than your standard relay based charge. It's not just about the B2B but often that you'll be uprating some of the cables between batteries and engine to handle the extra current. It's worth noting though that a decent B2B is not a magic wand for a 1/2 hour trip to the next stop. You may still need a good couple of hours, perhaps a lot more to refill over half of your 100Ah battery.

EHU charger upgrade must be the lowest priority. You'll be on EHU for many hours, at least an overnight stop, so even a low charge rate will get there. All it needs to be doing is sufficient charge voltage that it can charge. It might not on a standard non smart charger be good to go weeks on the EHU since lithium is perhaps happier being stored around 80% rather than 100 capacity, but who is on EHU for ever and a day?

Not sure that protection of the lithium is so much of an issue, whether from solar, alternator or EHU charging. If your battery has a decent BMS in it's "drop in" box, would that not protect against any overcharging?

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[Pausim]

I first fitted a LiFePO4 battery to my Hymer and then moved it to my Carthago. With the second installation I didn’t bother changing the mains charger to one with an Li profile. The Gel setting works well enough and if perhaps it doesn’t maximise the charge it doesn‘t matter. You don’t need a full charge when you have a mains hook up. Under charging an Li battery does it no harm at all, unlike lead acid/gel/agm which need fully charging.

The time that a full charge matters is when you are off grid. I have a B2B with an Li profile which makes sure I always arrive with a full battery. I use an Efoy when off mains but if you have solar panels a good mppt charge controller with an Li setting is probably a good idea.

 

[berni109]

Kannon Fodda said 'If your battery has a decent BMS'
That's the problem I am grappling with. How do you know if its decent?
You get a spec thats very technical and to understand it you need to know much more about lithium battery controllers than I do and unless u dismantle the case you dont know actually what's inside.

 

[two]

A BMS might do little more than isolate the battery if the voltage dropped too far.
The more you pay for it, the better it's likely to be (but not in proportion).
Some will be more protective than others.
You are likely to be on the receiving end of marketing hyperbole, so don't expect much of it to come true. I'm particularly wary of marketing "information" where new technology is involved: there's a lot of ignorance being traded.

 

[Pausim]

I saw a video the other day saying that the quality of the BMS is often the weakest part of a lithium battery. It can have a wonderful specification but if it is cheaply constructed it may not last. Most of us have no idea what BMS is sealed into the casing with the cells, we just have to rely on the reputation of the manufacturer. A long guarantee period is a good indication that the manufacturer has confidence in the components he has put inside the casing. I would want 3 years as an absolute minimum but 5 to 10 years is more reassuring.

 

[two]

The warranty may be as poor as the BMS.
Have you every made a successful claim on a battery that's failed before time?
A dodgy company may disappear as soon as claims start to appear.

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[Ingwe]

The warranty may be as poor as the BMS.
Have you every made a successful claim on a battery that's failed before time?
A dodgy company may disappear as soon as claims start to appear.

I'm getting more and more dispirited on the whole matter.

 

[funflair]

Kannon Fodda said 'If your battery has a decent BMS'
That's the problem I am grappling with. How do you know if its decent?
You get a spec thats very technical and to understand it you need to know much more about lithium battery controllers than I do and unless u dismantle the case you dont know actually what's inside.

I guess at the end of the day you either have confidence in the supplier or you don't as I am sure it is very difficult to make a judgement based on the available information, these batteries look to be around half the price of say a SuperB Epsilon so possibly its not as good (not saying it isn't) but it is cheaper.

EDIT sorry I should really have quoted a post from the OP

 

[Robert Clark]

I'm getting more and more dispirited on the whole matter.

If your existing set up suits your needs and your consumption / generation / storage are matched I’d suggest replacing your existing battery with a similar one

 

[Pausim]

I'm getting more and more dispirited on the whole matter.

If you are not sure I suggest buying from a manufacturer with a valued reputation and guarantee, perhaps Sterling, Victron or Relion. I am sure there are others as well.

 

[Clarky]

I'm getting more and more dispirited on the whole matter.

I suppose that cost is a major factor in making a decision but if you can afford to pay a bit more why not go to a company who will do the complete job for you.
I was like you and had no intention of faffing around myself so spent a while having a phone conversation with Andy at RoadPro. He gave me a price and we took the van to them to have the whole thing done. We had a Lion system fitted which included all the control gubbins, B2B and a display plus new solar controller.
It wasn’t cheap but I have the comfort of knowing it’s been fitted by people who know what they are doing.

Richard.

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