Lithium battery’s Worthwhile or not? (1 Viewer)

[Gilly114]

Are they worth the cost , anybody have any experience with this new idea,

 

[two]

If you're looking at cost, probably not. Wait until the market matures a little more.
If you're looking at weight (cost no object) they may well be worth investigating.

 

[Pausim]

I have installed one and I am pleased with it. It can be charged quickly, stores more useable power than lead equivalent and is a lot lighter. However, the jury is out on whether it is worth the cost and I might not be able to answer that fully for 10 years. You also need to ensure your charging systems have LiFePO4 profiles and updating these can add to the cost.

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[Solwaybuggier]

For a sceptical expert viewpoint - but independent, they don’t sell batteries - maybe worth looking at this source: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

 

[Gilly114]

Thanks, just thinking they would run a long while on non ehu

 

[CazPaul]

Thanks, just thinking they would run a long while on non ehu

So will Gel.

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[Pausim]

For a sceptical expert viewpoint - but independent, they don’t sell batteries - maybe worth looking at this source: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

I think he is little bit selective in his comparison with his favoured Victron Gel. Victron also make LiFePO4 batteries and the following is lifted from their own web pages:

“LFP batteries are expensive when compared to lead-acid. But in demanding applications, the high initial cost will be more than compensated by longer service life, superior reliability and excellent efficiency.”

I think you will also find that LiFePO4 charging cycles v depth of discharge can be vastly higher than he is claiming. Perhaps he is also guilty of making comparisons with the poorest performers. Here is some technical info from another manufacturer.
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Relion_RB100_Specifications.pdf

 

[Lenny HB]

Sound great but I'm not convinced as the cost is too high for the benifits unless you are a high power user with a payload problem.
One of the big selling points is their fast charging capability, if on EHU it's not that important and if not you need masses of solar or a second alternator both often not possible on the average van. Fast charging is no help unless you can supply the power.

 

[Gromett]

@Wissel is the man to speak to...

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[Wissel]

I would say for most people LiFePO4 probably isn't worth it.

I went for it as I use a lot of 12v power everyday. Besides holding more power in a smaller, lighter space, my cells charge faster and more efficiently than other types of battery. As I'm rarely on hookup this is a massive advantage.

To give a real world example, in my last build I had 4 x 100Ah lead acid batteries, 2 x 100w solar and a very good CTEK charging system. I monitored the system with a BM1 monitor.

I had a (low power) PC running most of the time and a compressor fridge. Without sun, after 2 days I'd have to switch the fridge off to save power (need PC for work).

Now I have a 400Ah LiFePO4 battery, 4 x 100w solar and very good Votronic charging. I can monitor the system via my phone or the chargers screen. But I don't bother.

I power a 12v PC, compressor fridge, router, MaxxFan and a few other bits all the time. I don't ever turn them off. When there's sun I'm completely self sufficient. Over the last month I've been parked in the shade, apart from a little sun from about 4pm. After about a week I have to remember to plug into hookup for a charge.

If I forget to charge my cells it isn't an issue as they are protected from damage via low voltage and shut everything down. I've only been using LiFePO4 for about 3 months, but so far they have been amazing.

 

[CazPaul]

I would say for most people LiFePO4 probably isn't worth it.

I went for it as I use a lot of 12v power everyday. Besides holding more power in a smaller, lighter space, my cells charge faster and more efficiently than other types of battery. As I'm rarely on hookup this is a massive advantage.

To give a real world example, in my last build I had 4 x 100Ah lead acid batteries, 2 x 100w solar and a very good CTEK charging system. I monitored the system with a BM1 monitor.

I had a (low power) PC running most of the time and a compressor fridge. Without sun, after 2 days I'd have to switch the fridge off to save power (need PC for work).

Now I have a 400Ah LiFePO4 battery, 4 x 100w solar and very good Votronic charging. I can monitor the system via my phone or the chargers screen. But I don't bother.

I power a 12v PC, compressor fridge, router, MaxxFan and a few other bits all the time. I don't ever turn them off. When there's sun I'm completely self sufficient. Over the last month I've been parked in the shade, apart from a little sun from about 4pm. After about a week I have to remember to plug into hookup for a charge.

If I forget to charge my cells it isn't an issue as they are protected from damage via low voltage and shut everything down. I've only been using LiFePO4 for about 3 months, but so far they have been amazing.

You need a winter though with them to do a proper review. We had 2 winters with our set up when fulltimimg, 375 watt of solar, x2 Rolls Surrette 6 volt 230 AH, sterling b2b. We didn't have hook up at any point, what wonderful batteries they are.
We did have a built in generator and ran this about once a week in winter, not because it was really needed but because it was there so used it.
Weight is one advantage of your system i can see though, how much do the batteries weigh on your set up?

 

[Pausim]

I agree that LiFePO4 are probably hard to justify for most users, because of cost. However, there have been several discussions on Fun about payload and I think they may well feature more and more as increasing numbers of owners strive to keep below the magic 3500kg.

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[eddie]

We are selling lots of Lithium batteries.

I am about to fit Lithium on my own camper and I will explain why

On my previous van, I had a number of 135Ah leisure batteries, 3 x 150 watt solar panels, a large built in generator, and on road charging. When on mains, or with the generator a 100amp multi stage charger, which swapped roles to be a 2300w mains inverter on demand.

That camper weighed in about 10 ton and was about 34’ when we ordered our new camper we didn't need anything so big so ordered a smaller van, which can be driven on a normal car licence

For the first time in years payload, whilst not a problem, has to be considered.

We have fitted 3 x 150w solar panels, but selected felixible panels which work out a lot lighter that conventional aluminium framed glass panels.

The locker housing the batteries is well laid out, also housing the hydraulic equipment for the levelling jacks and on road charging equipment. There is no room for additional batteries, so we would have to fabricate and weld a new battery housing to the chassis, which is a messy job, even if there was available space which there doesn’t appear to be.

So, we remove two lead acid batteries, each weighing 36Kg according to the spec, each rated circa 100amp

I replace them with two Lithium batteries, each weighing less than 15Kg

So we remove 72Kg and replace it with under 30Kg

With a regular cycle discharge of 50% we remove 100amps of usable power, and replace it with virtually double that

To get the same amount of “usable power” I would have to double up on the existing batteries, adding another 72Kg of batteries

My charge/discharge would be no where near as good with four lead acid batteries, as it will be with two Lithium’s

I need a decent inverter in my camper. My wife uses a hairdryer, so that’s that, in addition the camper comes with three large TV’s fitted, all mains, built in and way too big to replace with 12 volt. In addition, the Humax digi box is mains,a long with, the HDMI distribution unit, the surround sound system and other bits and bobs

No of which is an issue when correctly set up, which once the Lithium’s and the inverter charger are installed it will be.

Yes I know I don’t need TV
Yes I know my wife could kneel on the floor and dry her hair on a heater outlet
Yes I know I don’t need an inverter

I don’t “need” a Motorhome, but I have one and I don’t see the “need” to compromise

 

[Wissel]

Weight is one advantage of your system i can see though, how much do the batteries weigh on your set up?

My cells are 13.5kg each, so total weight is 54kg.
This is for around 360 usable Ah (I have mine set quite conservatively).

 

[Spriddler]

I need a decent inverter in my camper. My wife uses a hairdryer, so that’s that, in addition the camper comes with three large TV’s fitted, all mains, built in and way too big to replace with 12 volt. In addition, the Humax digi box is mains, along with the HDMI distribution unit, the surround sound system and other bits and bobs.

Sounds just like home, but before you stop somewhere overnight do you have to get planning permission?

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[eddie]

Sounds just like home, but before you stop somewhere overnight do you have to get planning permission?

Lol

No we are only a 27b Windsport

Its the massive slideouts that make all the difference

 

[dpsuk999]

I’ve just replaced 2 x victron 220ah gel batteries (total weight 132kg) with 4 x victron lithium 90ah (total weight 64kg) thus massive saving on weight and also giving me 288ah of useable power compared to only 110ah with the gels (50% gels, 80% lithium’s)

 

[CazPaul]

I’ve just replaced 2 x victron 220ah gel batteries (total weight 132kg) with 4 x victron lithium 90ah (total weight 64kg) thus massive saving on weight and also giving me 288ah of useable power compared to only 110ah with the gels (50% gels, 80% lithium’s)
View attachment 255318

Wow, I just looked, the price of those are almost £900 each, is that correct?

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[dpsuk999]

Yes plus the VE.bus BMS and I updated my victron MPPT with the smart one as I needed to use the VE.direct port to link it to the BMS so in the event of a detection of any cell been above a certain voltage the BMS shuts down the solar controller.

 

[Ivory55]

As lithium batteries are so much money do you have to notify the insurance and put them down as a specific item if stolen?

 

[Spriddler]

Yes plus the VE.bus BMS and I updated my victron MPPT with the smart one as I needed to use the VE.direct port to link it to the BMS so in the event of a detection of any cell been above a certain voltage the BMS shuts down the solar controller.

Of course it does; sounds like it's the crème de la menthe Rodney.

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[dpsuk999]

Haha I have spent a small fortune on all Victron products but do utilize it a lot as I also charge my smart car when on sites which have limited hook up amps available so supplement it with solar

 

[CazPaul]

Yes plus the VE.bus BMS and I updated my victron MPPT with the smart one as I needed to use the VE.direct port to link it to the BMS so in the event of a detection of any cell been above a certain voltage the BMS shuts down the solar controller.

Nice one, I would have been over the moon with your old set up mind.

Those Victron gels are good batteries, you should get a decent price for those second hand.

 

[dpsuk999]

The gels were great, it was just the weight!! I got £550 for both

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[Robert Clark]

Haha I have spent a small fortune on all Victron products but do utilize it a lot as I also charge my smart car when on sites which have limited hook up amps available so supplement it with solar
View attachment 255336

Wouldn’t it be cool if you could use the car as an extra battery source when off grid?

 

[dpsuk999]

Wouldn’t it be cool if you could use the car as an extra battery source when off grid?

Yeah would be great, got 4608kwh of power in the lithium’s and for 17800kwh in the car