Lithium Motorhome Batteries. (1 Viewer)

[MicknMew]

Hi, thinking of changing my leisure batteries to Lithium one's , has anyone got these ?, what do you think of them ?,and where is the best place to get them from ?.
Cheers.
Mick.

 

[SuperMike]

Out with the cheesy nibbles and glass of lightly chilled.

​

 

[Stealaway]

thinking of changing my leisure batteries to Lithium one's

Why?

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[pappajohn]

Don't forget to change your old charger for a very expensive one to go with your extremely expensive battery/ies.

 

[Madcaravanner]

To change to Lithium you also need a new charger system

OK if you do you can run them to a lower level that the 50% discharge of Lead Acid combo's but when a 100AH battery is £1000 is it worth the extra costs

 

[pappajohn]

Have a read of this thread....

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/eza-130-lithium-power-pack.163844/

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[pappajohn]

To change to Lithium you also need a new charger system

OK if you do you can run them to a lower level that the 50% discharge of Lead Acid combo's but when a 100AH battery is £1000 is it worth the extra costs

£3000 according to the link posted above

 

[sallylillian]

Don't forget to change your old charger for a very expensive one to go with your extremely expensive battery/ies.

Not necessarily, some chargers have lithium settings, my Victron for example, and my Votronic solar controller has a Lith setting. But the charging regime is just one small part of the system, there are other issues like managing the starter battery charging, battery management and a whole host of other stuff.

 

[pappajohn]

Yes, but not all vans are fitted with over complicated and expensive chargers....and there are far more vans which don't charge the starter battery than do.
But then there's the split charge system as well.

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[Wissel]

My whole system should come in at around £3000

That's 400Ah of batteries, a BMS and charging from solar, EHU and driving.

 

[MicknMew]

Thanks for all your replies, much appreciated. Not yet a 100 % decided wether to change or stick with what I've got
Mick

 

[Giles Briggs]

Hi there Mick

Lithium is very much a buzz word in the battery industry and the drawbacks are massively overlooked. You will find you will get much better performance and bang fro buck from Pure Lead AGM like Northstar than you will with Lithium.

Giles

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[adonisito]

I suppose the main question is why change ? Do you have specific reasons ?

 

[Giles Briggs]

Think of lithium batteries like a Bugatti and then ask yourself why your driving a diesel German car?, Bugatti is quicker cooler etc but what its not is cheap, they comes with hidden costs of disposal which nobody tells you about £9000 per 1000kg. It also doesn’t work below zero etc and try and find a lithium battery that doesn’t quote 10,000 life cycles,,,it takes 1 year to test a 1000 cycles none of these firms selling lithium have 10 years test results, you can look at real case studies on Northstar and other AGM product because they are real,,,oh yeh and it’s seriously more hazardous, if anybody has ever accidentally shorted a 12volt lead acid battery you know its a bit scary, for lithium its infantley more scary

 

[eddie]

I wouldn't and I stock Lithium batteries

I was arguing with a man (NOT a customer as we were arguing as he didn't understand how we could to refuse his money and his project) He was telling me a load of rubbish about a Lithium set up

I am the first to admit that I research this stuff as it comes along as to be honest at 57 years old, when I started working in the Newton Abbot branch of the Longlife Tyre and Battery Company, actually making batteries in the Branch we didn't spend any time on "Module Three" Lithium Battery's - In the Future!" LOL

Hence we research.

The "gentleman" in question was completely wrong and wouldn't be told, and in the end, in frustration I asked why he was convinced that he was right and he replied

"The man selling me the batteries told me"

I can see an advantage in a bespoke design, starting from scratch if money isn't the number on limiter, but cannot see the benefit in a conversion to be honest

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[Giles Briggs]

I am 100% with you Eddie, lithium has its place but 99% of applications are wrong to fit lithium, as I understand it for safety its only suppose to be transported 50% charged when supplied because of the dangerous nature,, now i know I am new to motorhomes and a few may stay forever on drives but the whole idea is moving about

 

[Pausim]

I decided to go with LiFePO4 and I am still in the process of installing it. Time will tell whether this is a good decision financially (probably not) but I am happy to try a newer technology. I think this is how progress is made and I am not the first on here to give it a go. Weight saving is part of my thinking, if I struggle to keep the C1 part of my license in the future I want a fighting chance of getting below the magic 3500kg.

I opted for a Relion LifePO4 battery because after looking at several options it’s technology impressed me most. Cell matching as well as a BMS that includes cell balancing. This link contains some of the details that sold it to me
https://www.solacity.com/docs/RELiON/RELiON_Cell_Features_and_Design.pdf
Not the cheapest around but not the most expensive either.

I already had a Sterling charger with a LiFePO4 charging profile, though I have used the user defined option to fit the battery manufacturers preferences more closely. Turning the EBL mains charging off is simply a matter of pulling a 20amp fuse, according Udo Lange at Schaudt. Separating the alternator charging is a liittle more involved in that I have diverted the engine battery connection from the EBL to a Votronic battery to battery charger with the right profile. It also takes over trickle charging the engine battery when alternative charging is available i.e. mains or solar.

I don’t claim to be an expert but I have followed several helpful threads on this site and sought technical advice where there were gaps in my understanding. Hope this helps you @MicknMew .

 

[Wissel]

There are reasons for fitting lithium in a van. For instance I need a lot of power (as I'll be working from van) and the ability to charge it fast. But I'd agree that it's not necessary for most motorhome users (yet).

I simply wouldn't be able to fit enough lead-acid batteries in my van, if I did the weight would be a huge problem. On the charging side, I could fit a bigger alternator and safely charge my bank at 200A per hour.

Regarding safety, depends on the chemistry. I wouldn't fit most types, but very happy with the LiFeYPO4 type I have.

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[Alistair33]

The weight saving is tremendous

 

[Giles Briggs]

Wieght wise bang for kg lithium is the best, if that is your only concern then lithium is the way to go and Relion is a good product (there is a lot that is not). If you are concerned about safety, actual power to £, reliability and durability then pure lead AGM is the only way.

Just like a Bugatti if top speed is the only concern its the car for you but if you are like most of the people out there then a German diesel will suit you, your needs and your pocket far better.

I have just purchased a Isuzu Motorhome which I will be refitting out and fitting Northstar batteries and Victron multi power electronics,,when I have some pictures I will post them

 

[Pausim]

I am 100% with you Eddie, lithium has its place but 99% of applications are wrong to fit lithium, as I understand it for safety its only suppose to be transported 50% charged when supplied because of the dangerous nature,, now i know I am new to motorhomes and a few may stay forever on drives but the whole idea is moving about

They are not dangerous if stored at 100% but apparently 50% is preferred for long term storage because the cells are more relaxed in this state. My Relion battery arrived just about fully charged. Actually I think the environmental hazards of LiFePO4 are less than lead acid. There are other types of lithium battery that have different hazards and the different types are often confused.

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[DL42846]

I don't see the justification in price between Lithium and Gel batteries. I fitted a Gel battery last year. I had to change my charger as it didn't have the settings for Gel. But so far the Gel has been fine. We wild camp most of the time, I have one 110 amp Gel battery and it works fine for us. A Gel battery cost £225 from Alpha Batteries.

 

[Wissel]

Wieght wise bang for kg lithium is the best, if that is your only concern then lithium is the way to go and Relion is a good product (there is a lot that is not). If you are concerned about safety, actual power to £, reliability and durability then pure lead AGM is the only way.

Just like a Bugatti if top speed is the only concern its the car for you but if you are like most of the people out there then a German diesel will suit you, your needs and your pocket far better.

I have just purchased a Isuzu Motorhome which I will be refitting out and fitting Northstar batteries and Victron multi power electronics,,when I have some pictures I will post them

Out of interest, do you know the usable capacity of the Northstar batteries Giles?

They do look good, and the charging cycles rating of 2050 @50% is impressive, but I assume they can use more than 50% of their capacity without damage?

 

[Giles Briggs]

Guys I don’t won’t to be dishonest to anyone its simply not how I live my life so I need to tell you I am from Battery Megastore, I have joined because I want to refit this nightmare Isuzu camper i purchased off a Japanease auction one very late one night see pic,,,,(hope you like the pic its ten times worse in real life). I need a lot of help as I have never fitted out a camper before. However I do know batteries and the industry. I will happily help anyone and I don’t care if you never buy a thing form Battery Megastore and yes we do sell lithium as well

All lithium is more dangerous than AGM, yes it has benefits and thats what sales guys sell product on. Find me one lithium sales catalogue that says something different than 10,000 cycles, find me one that say by the way end of life you will have a disposal bill that will be massive, oh yeh and by the way if the product is damaged in any way you can’t dispose of it very easily at all.

The battery industry is a dark place and its buyer beware, Enersys are the worlds biggest industrial battery firm and the EU sales director a few years back told me that they had purchased 7 lithium firms and in the end the firms were shut as the customers moved to AGM pure lead. Most of the biggest battery firms in the world have no lithium offering for this sort of market and there are many reasons, the main one being the market for fitting lithium correctly to the correct application is tiny

Northstar product can go down to 80%DOD but 50% is optimum it can also be charged at 3C (3 times capacity) yes you read that right.

Most of battery failures are not the battery its very hard to tell people that and there are a lot of experts out there giving terrible advice.

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[Wissel]

Northstar product can go down to 80%DOD but 50% is optimum it can also be charged at 3C (3 times capacity) yes you read that right.

Wow. Just to double check I'm not being an idiot here, a 100Ah battery charged at 3c would mean it can be charged at 300A?

I have a feeling I have this wrong.

 

[Gromett]

There appear to be a lot of misconceptions about. People make claims about "lithium" batteries without realising that this is a meaningless term.
There are many different chemistries. The two most common are
LiFePO4 which is Lithium Iron Phosphate.
LiCoO2 Which is Lithium Cobolt Oxide.

The ones in your phone are generally the Cobolt variety which have a higher energy density and are the ones that go pop and flame out.
The iron ones are the ones you will use in your van. They are extremely stable and have to be seriously abused to vent and rarely if ever flame out.

From a safety point of view I would be more than happy to have LiFePO4 batteries in my van.

On the cost front, lets do a little bit of maths.
I will base all the following calculations based on replacing a 100Ah Lead Acid battery.
A 100Ah lead acid battery actually only has 50Ah of usable capacity if you want it to last any length of time.
A lithium battery works best between 10% and 95% full charge. So you can use just over 85%. So to get a battery of equivelent capacity to our 100Ah we would need 60Ah.
Looking at the supplier I will be using https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/
60Ah are $74.59 and you would need 4 of these. So $298.36 which at $1.39 to the £ today is £214.
Compared to a 100Ah at £100 makes the Li battery seem quite expensive.

However, if you run the Li battery at the rates I indicated above (max DoD 10%-95%) you will get up to 3,000 cycles which compared to an upper limit of 1,000 for a Pb battery is pretty impressive. Most reports of real world usage I have seen indicate a minimum of 3 times the cycles in equivelent usage. So you would replace the lead acid batteries 3 times for each time you replace the lithium ones. So triple the £100 for a lead battery compared to £214 suddenly the lithium batteries aren't expensive when you measure full life costs.

Finally, on chargers. If you top balance LiFePO4 batteries in a leisure vehicle situation you will need a special charger and you will reduce the lifespan of them. The better alternative in my opinion is to use a good quality charger and bottom balance. This does require the occasional manual mainentenance cycle but you will extend the operational lifespan of the batteries.

On the storage front. The reason Lithium batteries ship at 50% is partially for safety but not really. You have to seriously abuse a LiFePO4 battery to cause it to go up, but as a safety precaution they are shipped with a lower level of charge to reduce the inherent energy available. However the main reason is, unlike lead acid batteries, Li batteries do not like being kept at full charge.

The other advantages of Li batteries is as already mentioned weight. But also energy density. An Li battery of similar capacity will be around half the size of a lead acid battery.

The final big advantage of an Li battery is that it doesn't suffer from Peukerts losses. What this means is that the energy you put in is as close to the same as you get out in practical terms. A lead acid battery will only give you around 85% of the energy out that you put in. When running on solar this gives you a large boost in comparison to lead acid. An Li battery will also accept charge much much faster than a Lead battery and doesn't require the same multiple stages. It requires a simple Constant voltage, constant current charge and will reach full charge much quicker than a lead acid battery.

There really isn't any downsides to lithium batteries since the huge price drops over the last 18 months. Price was the only thing holding them back.

It will require an investment in a charger that support Li batteries unless you do the bottom balance method. However most chargers these days such as sterlings support Li batteries.

 

[Gromett]

PS: I have posted this before. But will post again. It is worth watching even if you are not technically minded. Stick with it... You might not understand it all but you will learn a lot in the process.

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[Gromett]

One other advantage of an Li Battery is it's voltage is stable across the range of charge when compared to a lead battery.
You may have noticed your lights are dimmer and your water pump runs slower when your battery starts to get low. This doesn't happen to the same extent with Li Batteries.
They also don't suffer from voltage sag like a lead battery does when under higher load.

 

[PeteH]

Are they the same one`s that kept catching fire on the Boeing "dream liner"?

 

[Gromett]

Are they the same one`s that kept catching fire on the Boeing "dream liner"?

Those are the Co variety not the Fe ones.

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