Lithium batteries - advantages-disadvantages

Stealaway

Stealaway

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Burstner Lyseo 690G
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I have noticed many more members going to the expense of fitting Lithium batteries.
In my opinion the expense can only justified if you spend most of your holiday trips OFF Grid.
If you spend all your holiday time on campsites with EHU they just not necessary - IMO :Eeek:

I thought this article I found might also help members to decide:drinks:

Li-Ion Battery Advantages / Disadvantages: Lithium Ion » Electronics Notes

When looking at the possible usage of Lithium Ion, Li-Ion technology it is necessary to be aware of its advantages and disadvantages to make the most of its use.
www.electronics-notes.com www.electronics-notes.com
 
Stealaway said:
I have noticed many more members going to the expense of fitting Lithium batteries.
In my opinion the expense can only justified if you spend most of your holiday trips OFF Grid.
If you spend all your holiday time on campsites with EHU they just not necessary - IMO :Eeek:

I thought this article I found might also help members to decide:drinks:

Li-Ion Battery Advantages / Disadvantages: Lithium Ion » Electronics Notes

When looking at the possible usage of Lithium Ion, Li-Ion technology it is necessary to be aware of its advantages and disadvantages to make the most of its use.
www.electronics-notes.com www.electronics-notes.com
Click to expand...
The link is referring to Lithium Ion not Lithium Phosphate Lithium LiFeP04

The leisure batteries that most are fitting are LiFePO4
 
As Eddie says that article is talking about Lithium ion rather than lithium Iron Phosphate, the only disadvantage that applies really is the bit about them being expensive.

I think you are right Stealaway when you say that staying on campsites with hook up is a bit of a waste of LiFePO4, the way I look at the technology is its a way to carry enough battery capacity to stay off-grid but using 240v as if you were plugged in and all without eating into your payload.
 
I guess I think about it slightly differently, we do a mix of sites, aires, stellplatz etc. Wherever I am I want the ability to operate all my mains luxuries (!) without worrying, lithium will let me do that.
If I tried to justify the cost I wouldn’t have ep levellers, air susp or the fabulous electric Brompton.
Cost/value are different for each of us I guess.
 
We are off grid for the most part, so we have lithium and lots of solar.
When your looking at £3 to £5 a night for EHU, the layout cost of lithium starts to make sense.

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I don’t think we will ever get back the cost of lithium. However we prefer off grid as it’s normally quieter.

Add in that as others have said, electric if not included is £4 a night at most places.

We saved a fortune in France last year.
 
Jim said:
Well that depends on the price you put on deep discharges and quick recharges.
Click to expand...
You are right, they have lots of advantages, not just down to price.

For heavy users they are probably cheaper as they last much longer.
 
Still seriously considering it as battery space is limited in our 6M van, have always had 2 leisure batteries and solar. We've got the solar, but I don't think we will be able to run the heater fan in winter and have enough in reserve fro John's CPAP. Looking forward to our first rally to see how we do. Emergency generator will be carried but I don't like the noise either, sometimes a neede ;) d evil
 
Googlebot said:
You are right, they have lots of advantages, not just down to price.

For heavy users they are probably cheaper as they last much longer.
Click to expand...

Two knives. One that dulls quick and is a pain to sharpen. Costs £10

Another, made of better steel, which holds the edge for longer and needs less sharpening and when you do sharpen it, its easier. This one cost £50.

It's not the £40 difference I'm thinking about. Rather, its the quality of the cut and the ease of use. To me thats worth much more than £40. So for me the knife is free or pays me to own it :D

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eddievanbitz said:
The link is referring to Lithium Ion not Lithium Phosphate Lithium LiFeP04
Click to expand...
There are many types of Lithium Ion battery. Technically, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are Lithium Ion Batteries too. the article is detailing the general advantages of Li-ion batteries over other types like lead-acid, NiCd, NiMh etc. The most relevant difference is LiFePO4 batteries are much less of a fire risk than other Li-ion types.
 
Jim said:
Well that depends on the price you put on deep discharges and quick recharges.
Click to expand...

eddievanbitz said:
The link is referring to Lithium Ion not Lithium Phosphate Lithium LiFeP04

The leisure batteries that most are fitting are LiFePO4
Click to expand...

I didn't realise there were different types - Does everyone appreciate there are different types?

We are always OFF grid and have never been short of battery power with 250W of solar and 2 standard leisure batteries -- in over 10 years.
How long would Lithium need to last to justify the substantial extra costs?
 
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Stealaway said:
I didn't realise there were different types - Does everyone appreciate there are different types?

We are always OFF grid and have never been short of battery power with 250W of solar and 2 standard leisure batteries -- in over 10 years.
How long would Lithium need to last to justify the substantial extra costs?
Click to expand...
Most if not all of the Lithium batteries you can buy as ‘leisure” batteries are LiFePO4
 
Stealaway said:
I didn't realise there were different types - Does everyone appreciate there are different types?
Click to expand...
There are many types. The only thing they have in common is lithium, the other chemicals that go into the batteries makes the all important difference. That article is very misleading because it tries to lump them all together.

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Having them fitted 18 April cost really does not come into it... it’s all about convience and being able to use the coffee machine when I want to without looking at the battery levels
 
If you pay 740 pounds for a 100ah, the cost will be 0,17 pounds per kwh. Same as the grid. If you pay less, you come ahead of grid price. This is based on 60% capacity used at 6000 cycles. Very conservative, so can you get the lead anywhere near that? No chance, the kwh from lead will be 5 times more expensive than the grid.
 
Stealaway said:
I didn't realise there were different types - Does everyone appreciate there are different types?
Click to expand...
LiFePO4 batteries are not quite as compact for the same energy storage as some of the other lithium types. So phone and laptop batteries are the other more compact type, liable to catch fire if punctured or damaged. You may be surprised to find out that some electric cars like the Teslas also use the more flammable type of batteries, rather than LiFePO4.
 
They are prohibitively expensive for me, although I do see benefits. Perhaps in a few years the price will come down? But I fully expect by then there will be some other battery chemical makeup that's in vogue. All technology is the same.
 
Re cost effective, buying a brand new motorhome is probably the least cost effective buy most people will make, having been fortunate enough to have been able to to buy new every 4 years, i shudder to think how much we have lost in depreciation. But it was never about that. It was more about a comfortable lifestyle reliability with a new or fairly new van, though that is debatable with the latest one. So we are hoping when restrictions lift to have 400 watts of solar an inverter charger and 200 amps of Lithiium. We spend quite a lot of time away, so when allowed use the 90/180 to the max, mostly staying on aires so mostly off grid. So consider it a good investment. But horses for courses, each to his own.

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Raul said:
If you pay 740 pounds for a 100ah, the cost will be 0,17 pounds per kwh. Same as the grid. If you pay less, you come ahead of grid price. This is based on 60% capacity used at 6000 cycles. Very conservative, so can you get the lead anywhere near that? No chance, the kwh from lead will be 5 times more expensive than the grid.
Click to expand...

I cant be bothered to check out the maths but --

My last set of batteries cost exactly £200, lasted over 5 years and until I sold the van.
They would have done at least 500 cycles --- at 100 nights away / cycles per year.
By your calculations 6000 cycles will last me over 60 years by which time I will have long since sold the van --- and dead.

They are definitely no good for me.

I also hope people are happy with the charging requirements / regime for Lithium batteries.
If its not perfect many could be disappointed by the short battery life.
 
Stealaway said:
I also hope people are happy with the charging requirements / regime for Lithium batteries.
If its not perfect many could be disappointed by the short battery life.
Click to expand...
Unlike lead acid batteries LiFePO4 batteries are not damaged by undercharging. The battery management system protects them from over voltage and and over discharge. The worst you are likely to do using a non-Li charger is achieve very slightly less than a full charge but the life and performance of the battery will not be affected.
 
As I haven't slept very well and so was bored/had time on my hands, I thought I would do a little research on the possibility of lithium batteries in the m/h.

For myself I very rarely use ehu in fact since I bought this m/h I have only pugged into the mains perhaps three times in 18 month and that has been in the depths of winter this year.

When I bought the m/h I fitted 2 150w solar panels and a Votronic Duo 350 mppt (as I am a complete numpty with electricary it was akin to Painting By Numbers) but I got there and everything seems to work as it should including the starter battery charging.

At the moment I have 2x90ah AGM batteries which to be honest was a struggle in Spain during last December, hence looking into lifePo4 I don't yet have an inverter and weight/budget are an issue.

Stressing the point that I know nothing I found a bewildering selection of battery manufacturers none of whom seem to be amongst the traditional brand leading lead acid producers such as Varta, Bosh etc. As the prices appear to be coming down (in some cases) it is now at least for me looking more viable given the constraints I have.

As far as I can see there are no established brand leaders at the moment but can see these are the cheapest on the internet


Ultramax 100Ah 12V LITHIUM LiFePO4 Battery for Leisure, Solar, Wind and Off-grid 12 volt​


Brand: Ultramax


3.9 out of 5 stars 17 ratings

| 44 answered questions




Price:£431.09




Pay £431.09 £411.09: get a £20 Amazon Gift Card on approval for the Amazon Platinum Mastercard. Terms apply.















New (6) from £431.09 & FREE Delivery









BrandUltramax
Voltage12 Volts
Battery cell compositionLithium Metal

About this item​

  • DIMENSIONS: L 325mm x W 165mm x H 211mm inc posts. Suitable for Large Mobility Scooter / wheelchair including, Car Audio System, CCTV back up, Leisure, Solar, Wind and Off-grid
  • Can be used anyway around as it is non spillable. Must be stored in charged condition
  • LITHIUM -ION BATTERY / LiFePO4 BATTERY
  • Ultra Light High Performance. Complete with 3 hr Lithium Charger
  • IT WEIGHTS IN AT ONLY 13.8 KILO. 75% LIGHTER, 1/2 OF THE SIZE & LASTS UP TO 10 X LONGER THAN A STANDARD BATTERY !!!!



to me the technology appears to be the same (like for like) but the prices can be as much as £1000 or there about's so how do you know that the "new kids on the block" so to speak are good or bad, the above seems to bring the cost into an acceptable range but what do I know?

Les
 
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It's not the price of the LiFePO4 batteries that puts me off. I have had several quotes and in each case the the cost of the additional equipment needed to ensure you get the best from them and the labour charge for fitting has been about 150% or more of the batteries.

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Stealaway said:
We are always OFF grid and have never been short of battery power with 250W of solar and 2 standard leisure batteries -- in over 10 years.
How long would Lithium need to last to justify the substantial extra costs?
Click to expand...

in my opinion you don’t need Lithium batteries.

Your power consumption, generation and storage are perfectly matched.

Lithium batteries are a great solution if you need more storage without increasing size or weight, or if you have high power needs, or if you want to get the maximum from your solar panels.
 
When our “gels“ eventually die on us I will probably go Lithium as we have the set up on board already. I wouldn’t just do it for the sake of it though. Two lithium batteries with prices improving won’t be far off three Sonneshien gels, so it makes sense to me.
 
barsteward the Sterling LiFePO4 battery is now competitively priced, has a 5 year warranty and comes from a trusted source. I have a Relion one which when I purchased stood out but it remains expensive and I would probably look elsewhere if buying now. The weight saving is significant.

I have a Compactline and have not replaced the CBE mains charger, it‘s gel setting is within the recommended voltages for my Relion battery and it works well. You rarely use ehu so I would not bother changing it. A B2B would ensure you have full batteries on arrival and might be useful. I think your Votronic MPPT has an Li setting.
 
Gaston aires said:
:LOL:When our “gels“ eventually die on us I will probably go Lithium as we have the set up on board already. I wouldn’t just do it for the sake of it though. Two lithium batteries with prices improving won’t be far off three Sonneshien gels, so it makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
Exactly where I am. I've been steadily updating the charging setup with a view to ultimately going lithium, problem is by 17 year old gels keep performing
 

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