Leisure battery goosed ?

h1ghway1

h1ghway1

Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Posts
512
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Location
Oxford
Funster No
30,368
MH
Hymer B584
Exp
since 2013
Im in a 1999 Hymer B584 with a 100w solar panel and a battery manager.

My batteries are at least 6 years old and lead/acid wet.

I'm currently traveling around North Yorkshire and normally find a site with EHU.

I'm off grid last 2 nights and as the weather has been great not using much electric , just a low wattage LED in van .

After about 30 minutes usage I noticed the Battery Alarm flashing on the Hymer Panel 104 above the rear door.

I find one reporting above 12 volts and the 2nd reporting just over 10... this happened last night as well but by morning battery levels where back to just under 14v on both so I'm thinking the solar panel
has topped up and the alarm was quenched.

I'm thinking this indicates a knackered battery... I'm thinking I will need to replace the leisure batteries.

I'm not technical and don't have any practical skills , but what does the forum think ?
 
At 12v the battery is close 60% discharge and that is very low at 10v unless you are very lucky it’s for scrap.
To drop from 13.8v to alarm for a few hours on a simple led they are goosed
 
Thanks ... its what I thought..

I'm currently in the North East.. Whitby .. then off to Beadnell Bay CCC site this Sunday leaving Thursday.. probably heading to Lake District..

can anyone recommend a place I can get them replaced... I'm happy to go to Halfords if its free fitting...
 
I don't know whether Halfords would be much good at fitting a leisure battery unless it's easily accessible. I haven't been greatly impressed with their skills. Their fitting isn't usually free either and you will probably pay more for the battery'.

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One is under the driver seat and other under passenger seat... doesn't look easy
 
Do you know which one is dropping to 10v?
If you do it may be worth disconnecting that one as it could be pulling the other down more.
Insulate the cables of course.
 
I'm afraid not..but I'm on ehu from tomorrow...
 
h1ghway1 said:
I'm afraid not..but I'm on ehu from tomorrow...
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Not trying to alarm you but Keep a watch on them just in case they become a problem and start overheating or gassing off.
That could be a safety issue for you.

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Phill ..yes I'm wary of that..will be vigilant.. thanks for your input👍
 
As Phill D says, as an interim measure disconnect the 10v one as it may be pulling the 'better' one down. Tape up the removed leads. As they're at least 6 yrs old they're probably done-for.
If you take old batteries to a scrappy you'll get about a tenner each for them. ;)
 
My batteries are under the seats pretty straight forward to change lifting the seat off was the heavy bit just 4 bolts needs one strong person or 2 weaklings :wink:
 
h1ghway1 said:
I find one reporting above 12 volts and the 2nd reporting just over 10... t
Click to expand...
Is the one above 12V the starter battery (aka vehicle or cab battery)? Is the one that's just over 10V the leisure battery (aka hab or living area battery)?

If a battery drops fairly rapidly to about 10V then it is definitely goosed. Batteries can fail by gradually losing capacity, so an old 100Ah battery can behave as if it's a 10Ah battery. It might charge up OK, but there's no staying power once you start to actually use it.

In your circumstances (very light use for not many hours) I would expect a good battery to stay over 12.0V, and very likely over 12.5V. It should last without hookup or solar for a few days, probably over a week.
 
It's the leisure batteries.. cheers..
Looking to replace them asap.

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h1ghway1 said:
It's the leisure batteries.. cheers..
Looking to replace them asap.
Click to expand...
I had a similar problem the other week. One of my leisure batteries set the smoke alarm off. Even though I topped up both batteries regularly one was ok and the other completely dry.It was red hot and smouldering. I had a local chap come round and disconnected them both. I decided to have both batteries removed but only buy one new one as I have a solar panel as well.My dealer said I would need to replace the Solar Controller and also the main Control Panel which both had stopped working. The NDS controller was ordered from RoadPro and came very quickly.
 
Currently in Germany. Our leisure battery has failed, dropping down to 10.8 V overnight. Still runs the water pump in the morning for a cuppa, most of our other needs are LED lights. Solar panels soon get the volts up to over 13 and they stay there until sunset when the cycle starts again. Not really a problem and will limp on until our return. See the problem as an opportunity to install a lithium battery and associated setup so I don’t want to spend money on a new lead acid leisure battery.
 
Lizbiebrowne said:
Currently in Germany. Our leisure battery has failed, dropping down to 10.8 V overnight. Still runs the water pump in the morning for a cuppa, most of our other needs are LED lights. Solar panels soon get the volts up to over 13 and they stay there until sunset when the cycle starts again. Not really a problem and will limp on until our return. See the problem as an opportunity to install a lithium battery and associated setup so I don’t want to spend money on a new lead acid leisure battery.
Click to expand...
Keep an eye on that battery, in case it starts to get hot and produce gases. If the problem is that one cell has shorted then you now have a 5-cell battery instead of a 6-cell battery.

The charging voltage should be reduced, to 5/6 of its normal value, but this might be difficult or impossible with your particular chargers. For example, the float voltage should be 11.6V, not 13.4V. A voltage of 13V on this battery is equivalent to 15.6V on a normal battery, ie well over its normal absorption voltage.
 
There is a really good battery specialist if you could detour via York, Battery Solutions on Leeman Road in York, 01904 626414. The owner chap is called John and he will test and report on your battery conditions, and replace/fit them for you wheel you wait if needed at a very competitive price.

I have used him many times with great satisfaction over the several years he has been trading there.
 
autorouter said:
Keep an eye on that battery, in case it starts to get hot and produce gases. If the problem is that one cell has shorted then you now have a 5-cell battery instead of a 6-cell battery.

The charging voltage should be reduced, to 5/6 of its normal value, but this might be difficult or impossible with your particular chargers. For example, the float voltage should be 11.6V, not 13.4V. A voltage of 13V on this battery is equivalent to 15.6V on a normal battery, ie well over its normal absorption voltage.
Click to expand...
Thanks Autorouter for your advice. I’m not using the battery charger when on EHU, relying on alternator when on the move (I assume I’ve got the basic split diode charging system on this 2018 Ducato, dividing the charge between the starter and leisure battery) and the solar panel when parked up (which is controlled by a cheap Chinese controller I don’t think I can adjust). I’ll keep my eye, or hand, on the temperature.

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Thanks Russ... I'll call him tomorrow 👍
RussMag said:
There is a really good battery specialist if you could detour via York, Battery Solutions on Leeman Road in York, 01904 626414. The owner chap is called John and he will test and report on your battery conditions, and replace/fit them for you wheel you wait if needed at a very competitive price.

I have used him many times with great satisfaction over the several years he has been trading there.
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.

So if all the different battery types have different capability to accept speed of charge,
do slow ones need a lower rated B2B, and batts which charge faster need a higher rated charger ?

Or is it ok to just batter all types with 60 amps ?
.
_
 
Marauder said:
So if all the different battery types have different capability to accept speed of charge,
do slow ones need a lower rated B2B, and batts which charge faster need a higher rated charger ?

Or is it ok to just batter all types with 60 amps ?
Click to expand...
The usual rule of thumb is to not let the charging amps value exceed one fifth of the battery amp-hour capacity. So if the capacity C of the battery is 100Ah, the charging amps should be limited to C/5, ie 100/5 = 20A. That's for each battery, if you have two in parallel then you can go to 40A for the pair.

Some types are more tolerant than others. In terms of charging amps, the 'dual-purpose' starter/leisure batteries can take a higher charge rate than Gel batteries, even though Gels are better in most other respects.

This is one area where lithium batteries are very much better than lead-acid, most lithiums will take C/2 quite happily, and many will take a charge rate of C. In other words, you can charge most 100Ah lithium batteries at 100A.
 
.
So what's drawbacks of LifePo4 batts, and are they compatible with EBL99 / AD01 setup pls ?
_
 
Marauder said:
So what's drawbacks of LifePo4 batts, and are they compatible with EBL99 / AD01 setup pls ?
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Apart from the price, the only real drawback of LiFePO4 batteries is that they shouldn't be charged if the temperature drops below about zero C. The usual solution is to have chargers with lithium profile, and a temperature sensor. Some of them even have a function where the charging power can be fed to a heater pad if the temperature is too low.

Another possible issue is that the battery has quite a low resistance when very flat. It might possibly draw too much amps from the alternator when the engine is running, if a standard split charge relay is used, as in the EBL99. In that case the 50A fuses by the batteries might blow. But mostly I think that's not been a problem. If it is then upgrading the split charge relay to a B2B charger will sort that out.

A lithium battery will survive if it's put in with a standard EBL99 set to standard lead-acid profile. But I'm sure you want to take advantage of its fast charge/discharge rates, You could disable the EBL 18A mains charger and connect a bigger charger, 40A or more, with a lithium profile and temperature sensor. A solar controller with a lithium profile won't give you more amps, but if it has a temperature sensor and lithium profile it will protect the battery in the unlikely event of low temperature and bright sunlight - skiing in the Alps for example. And a nice big B2B, 60A or more, will fill it fast as you drive, but it needs a temperature sensor and lithium profile because driving below zero is quite likely.

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Last edited:
autorouter said:
A lithium battery will survive if it's put in with a standard EBL99 set to standard lead-acid profile. But I'm sure you want to take advantage of its fast charge/discharge rates,
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I thought it was better on the Gel setting the voltage is too high on the LA setting.
 
Lenny HB said:
I thought it was better on the Gel setting the voltage is too high on the LA setting.
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It may be different on later Schaudt LAS chargers, but certainly for the earlier ones the voltages are fixed at 14.3V and 13.8V, and the only thing that the selector switch varies is the absorption time, 4hr for Standard Lead-acid, 16hr for Gel. Ideally a lithium battery would have zero absorption time, so the lead-acid (Blei-saure) setting would be better, I think.
 
autorouter said:
It may be different on later Schaudt LAS chargers, but certainly for the earlier ones the voltages are fixed at 14.3V and 13.8V, and the only thing that the selector switch varies is the absorption time, 4hr for Standard Lead-acid, 16hr for Gel. Ideally a lithium battery would have zero absorption time, so the lead-acid (Blei-saure) setting would be better, I think.
Click to expand...
Later ones have AGM at 14.7v & Gel at 14.4v that's why Gel is recomended not ideal with the long absorbtion phase.
Spending all that money on Lithium its not lot of cost to fit a proper charger the the Victron IP 22 ones quite cheap.
 
.
Lenny warned me off the AGMs, so thinking of LiFePo4 now.

Alpha batts claim their LiFePo4 are ok down to -20c.
I was intending to get Votronic Duo MPPT for solar, then cast around for hefty B2B. ( If 2x100Ah LiFePo4, C/2 is 100amps max charge rate)

But Alpha are recommending this for £179:
www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

12v Xplorer 45A Onboard DC/DC Charger with Solar MPPT, Remote Control & LED Display - Alpha Batteries

Product Features: 1.Xplorer PBC1212-45, the DC to DC charger is purposely designed for charging auxiliary batteries. with inbuilt MPPT Solar […]
www.alpha-batteries.co.uk www.alpha-batteries.co.uk
but it seems awful low price - would you trust it ?

I looked at the IP22, they seem to be only 20a and have 3pin plug - seems like they are for mains use at home ?
Alpha are recommending this
https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-xplorer-60a-onboard-multi-stage-smart-battery-charger-copy/
for mains charger, but if I am on EHU it will be at least overnight, so would the 20a version still give a full charge in that time? How is charge time calculated?

is it 200ah / 20a = 10hours ?

Thanks

BTW: you guys are amazing, if I had no guidance thro this nightmare, I would probably have blown the thing up by now. Only gripe is paying to access a forum where the contributors get no reward. ( I once got calculator out - MHF subs x number of members - answer was literally £millions )
.
_
 
The - 20° is the in use temperature you still can't charge below 0°.

The B2B with the solar charger is similar to the Reoligy one problem with that one is if it detects solar it reduces the charge by 50%.
Have a look at the Votronic B2B's good but more expensive.

The IP22 is avaliable in I think 15, 20 & 30 amps it will do the job.
A flat 100 ah LifeP04 battery will recharge with 100 ah of charge put back so with a 20 amp charger about five hours the charge rate doesn't tail off like lead, which also would need 225 ah putting back in.
Also you are unlikely to be charging from flat.

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