IVECO 2005 60C VB SemiAir (1 Viewer)

[funflair]

Although our Flair is registered 2006 it is built on a 2005 IVECO 60C chassis which I think is sometimes called a low frame meaning that the driving area and dashboard are lower down meaning that there is a step down inside the vehicle to the cockpit, this is fine and means that you get an even bigger windscreen so a great view BUT it does mean that you can not fit the VB full air suspension. The chassis already has original IVECO air on the rear and is fully automatic with a manual override for raise and lower.

I don't know when it was introduced but VB now do a SemiAir kit for the front of this chassis so it was on my list for Santa. "Why does it need it" you may ask and the straight answer is I didn't know that it did or more to the point what benefit we would get, anyway it seems that we cant find a suitable replacement for the Flair so might as well add some more options. The original suspension does crash a bit into potholes and the like and Santa came up trumps at Christmas so I spoke to Mick (top bloke) at SAP http://www.specialistautomotiveproducts.co.uk/ and the bits came through from the Netherlands pretty quickly and it was all fitted yesterday.

Link Removed this link basically shows the air bag that is installed into the front suspension suspension to assist the original torsion bars, the system is fitted with it own pump and manual controls so you can fiddle with the pressure and ride height as you drive.

So we left Mick's workshop at about 6pm last night with the air pressure set at about 4bar, the first impression was that the front was sitting a bit higher than before which it is by possibly 2 inches, within a couple of miles Mrs Funflair pronounced that it was quieter which was quite a relief as it was me that wanted it fitting, within another couple of miles our chosen route was stopped by blue lights and we had to turn down a side road which I am sure was pretty rough but we didn't get the crashing at the front anymore, eventually we got onto the A1 North and there is a section that has a poor "ribbed surface" which can be quite noisy but we hardly heard that, closer to home we know the road is really bad but again the harshness was taken from the bumps.

So in conclusion, I need to fiddle with the pressures to see what is the best setting but there is certainly an improvement to the ride quality so money well spent, ah "how much" you ask? the basic kit is £1300 but the optional pump and controls add another £500 so total £1800 expertly fitted to Mick's usual high standards of course. So now just need to get out again to set it up and test a bit more well we have been at home nearly 24 hours sop getting itchy feet.

Martin

 

[grumfy]

Martin, I had the system you describe fitted to my chassis this past summer retaining the Iveco rear air system too. Why? Well in my case the van was far too susceptible to side winds and overtaking trucks & buses. So much so I was seriously considering selling the van despite it being only 6 months old.
Having a newer chassis I could have had the VB full air fitted but was advised that I needed to go the whole hog and scrap the Iveco rear system and refit that too. The cost (8 to 10k) put me off going down that path. I am glad I did as the semi air has transformed my vans handling and I now enjoy driving it.
I was surprised though at your pressure setting as I was told to try 2 bar and not go above 3 bar. I have kept it at 2 bar finding it worked for me. My next step is to find better shock absorbers for the front as I feel it wallows a fair bit.

 

[funflair]

Martin, I had the system you describe fitted to my chassis this past summer retaining the Iveco rear air system too. Why? Well in my case the van was far too susceptible to side winds and overtaking trucks & buses. So much so I was seriously considering selling the van despite it being only 6 months old.
Having a newer chassis I could have had the VB full air fitted but was advised that I needed to go the whole hog and scrap the Iveco rear system and refit that too. The cost (8 to 10k) put me off going down that path. I am glad I did as the semi air has transformed my vans handling and I now enjoy driving it.
I was surprised though at your pressure setting as I was told to try 2 bar and not go above 3 bar. I have kept it at 2 bar finding it worked for me. My next step is to find better shock absorbers for the front as I feel it wallows a fair bit.

Thanks for that pleased it worked for you, I was going ask what you ran the pressure at but then read further down, yours will be the 50C chassis and ours is 60C but don't know if that makes a difference, the paperwork from VB says static or below 5 km/h max pressure 6bar and above 5 km/h max pressure 3.5 bar (I read the instruction when I got home) to be fair the handover instructions for using it were a bit vague.

Martin

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[Floydster]

Nice to hear Mick has recovered from doing the business on our van before Christmas.
I think it fought him all the way. I collected it on 23rd they were meant to close on the 22nd.
Top man well worth travelling to him, there's no way other firms would have done what he did.
It was you @funflair Martin that put me onto him at The New Forest meet.

 

[funflair]

Nice to her Mick has recovered from doing the business on our van before Christmas.
I think it fought him all the way. I collected it on 23rd they were meant to close on the 22nd.
Top man well worth travelling to him, there's no way other firms would have done what he did.
It was you @funflair Martin that put me onto him at The New Forest meet.

Should have told me before I might have got a bit discount

What did you have.

Martin

 

[Stumbleweed]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in and picking your brains?

Our Charisma 2 is built on a 2006 67C17 chassis, (65C17 with 6.7t upgrade option). It's the older style Daily that went out of production in 2006.

I understand it has rear air suspension, but not front and wonder if the kit described above would work on our vehicle. I've noticed ours feels 'soft' at the front and the suspension can bottom on undulations in the road surface.

Any suggestions or advice gratefully received....

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[funflair]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in and picking your brains?

Our Charisma 2 is built on a 2006 67C17 chassis, (65C17 with 6.7t upgrade option). It's the older style Daily that went out of production in 2006.

I understand it has rear air suspension, but not front and wonder if the kit described above would work on our vehicle. I've noticed ours feels 'soft' at the front and the suspension can bottom on undulations in the road surface.

Any suggestions or advice gratefully received....

Hi

I think the simple answer is "YES" OK ours is the 60C17 with a step down to the driving position which means that the floor is not raised to give room for full air, does yours have a step down to driving position and the original IVECO dash or is it the full one level floor and Concorde dash if you have the latter it might mean that you could have the option of full air otherwise yes the semi air option would fit I believe. If it bottoms out it must be looking pretty low on the front I guess.

Anyway the only sure way to find out what will really be possible is to go see Mick at SAP, if you are at Peterborough or one of the outdoor shows you might catch him there and drag hime over for a quick look.

Martin

 

[Stumbleweed]

Hi Martin,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
Ours has full one-level floor and Concorde dash.

I suspect this question is more complex that I first realised - I hadn't understood the distinction between semi & full air. The rear must already be semi-air from new as it has controls for rear air suspension but definitely has twin-leaf rear springs. The front suspension is presumably as Iveco intended.

I don't think it looks particularly low at the front - what do you think?

 

[funflair]

If anything the rear looks a touch low to me but the level for that should be controlled automatically by a ride height sensor on the rear axle, are you sure that the rear suspension is a full leaf spring rather than just a spring fixed in front of the axle and an airbag at the rear a bit like a trailing arm supported on the air bag.

Martin

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[Stumbleweed]

Not sure at all. I'll have to have another good look underneath once winter's over and I get it out of storage.....
Thanks again for your help.

 

[funflair]

Not sure at all. I'll have to have another good look underneath once winter's over and I get it out of storage.....
Thanks again for your help.

Should look like this on the rear.


Martin

 

[CazPaul]

Good to know that, ours is the 40C17 2005 and a step down to the cab, I wish it was a level floor.
Do your cab seats raise up to get the height when lounging?

This could be an option for us as a bit wobbly in windy conditions, we have Goldschmitt rear air which I run at 3.5.

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[funflair]

And just as an aside for anybody with air suspension it is worth fitting or having fitted manual fill points for the air suspension, then if there is ever a problem with the pump or control side the air bags can then be manually filled with a car tyre pump and you won't be stranded. The later full air systems on German Concorde, N+B, Morelo etc now have these fitted as standard.

Martin

 

[funflair]

Good to know that, ours is the 40C17 2005 and a step down to the cab, I wish it was a level floor.
Do your cab seats raise up to get the height when lounging?

This could be an option for us as a bit wobbly in windy conditions, we have Goldschmitt rear air which I run at 3.5.

You will only fall down the step once Paul.

Martin

 

[CazPaul]

You will only fall down the step once Paul.

Martin

it's the cab seat raising I don't like Martin, they seem a bit unreliable so much so we only raise and turn one of them, they raise on gas struts and some complication system which has the potential to go wrong and has.
the front air sounds interesting though, I will enquire I think.

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[DavidG58]

I didn't realise you had fitted front air Martin, seems like only a few weeks ago you were describing how rough a ride you had through pot holes, presumably not now

I appreciate mine would be different but it's about the only left to sort on mine now, I think a call to Mick is imminent

 

[tacr2man]

If it is sitting a bit low at front, it should be possible to raise the ride height by adjusting the front torsion bar setting lever on rear of bar .
It should not affect the ride harshness as that is decided by the diameter of the bar itself.

This might be applicable but will show you where to measure ride height .
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1168918/Iveco-Daily-Euro-4.html?page=734

 

[funflair]

it's the cab seat raising I don't like Martin, they seem a bit unreliable so much so we only raise and turn one of them, they raise on gas struts and some complication system which has the potential to go wrong and has.
the front air sounds interesting though, I will enquire I think.

Our seats have been going up and down and round and round for 13 years now so not that worried.

Martin

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[bigtree]

I didn't realise you had fitted front air Martin, seems like only a few weeks ago you were describing how rough a ride you had through pot holes, presumably not now

I appreciate mine would be different but it about the only left to sort on mine now, I think a call to Mick is imminent

You can't get VB air on the front of a Merc David.

 

[funflair]

I didn't realise you had fitted front air Martin, seems like only a few weeks ago you were describing how rough a ride you had through pot holes, presumably not now

I appreciate mine would be different but it about the only left to sort on mine now, I think a call to Mick is imminent

It's been on for a couple of years now David, and yes it does make a difference, yes I am critical of the ride through/over pot holes but then in Germany I drove a £200k+ van and it made me realise that ours is not not that bad after all, and ours didn't have some of the rattles that theirs had in fact we really don't have rattles so the ride can't be that bad.

Martin

 

[funflair]

If it is sitting a bit low at front, it should be possible to raise the ride height by adjusting the front torsion bar setting lever on rear of bar .
It should not affect the ride harshness as that is decided by the diameter of the bar itself.

This might be applicable but will show you where to measure ride height .
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1168918/Iveco-Daily-Euro-4.html?page=734

The trouble I imagine with relying just on the torsion bars to dictate the ride height is that vans on these chassis can have over 2 tonne payload and where you load that must have an affect on the suspension ride height, for example you could have at least 700kg of fluids in front of the rear axle or you might have the rear garage loaded to its maximum and empty tanks in front of the rear axle to nothing to counter the lift.

This really is just the thought process that has been going on in my head to try to answer the question full air or just rear on a new van, the downside of full air can be that it gets a bit bouncy and then you have to spend £5k on active damping.

Martin

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[tacr2man]

Air by virtue of its ability to respond to weight change has to be gold standard when talking about height sensor systems . The torsion bar is capable of responding to a degree as it gets stiffer the more it is twisted . It does however lead to a drop in ride height by virtue of the twist . It also does lose some resistance over time , so needs to be adjusted from time to time .
In regard to dampers then if changing from leaf springs which have some inherent self damping then a damper needs to be more effective , not so much when going from torsion bar or coil springs to air , but all three ideally need dampers with different characteristics .
The ride height needs to be correct at its normal running condition for ideal steering geometry , affecting stability , and tyre wear .
HTSH

 

[funflair]

I get your point about air for ride height correction, on our recent trip around some German dealers and manufacturers I was surprised that "full air" was not the system of choice on 200k vans and was only recommended by Morelo and Concorde on vans 9 metres and above, Saying that I did think that the Concorde we drove without front air looked a little low and was a quite efficient "pot hole finder", rear air does seem the norm though I guess partly for ride height with the up to 2000kg payload but also for getting big overhangs onto ferries and up ramps.

Martin

 

[CazPaul]

I get your point about air for ride height correction, on our recent trip around some German dealers and manufacturers I was surprised that "full air" was not the system of choice on 200k vans and was only recommended by Morelo and Concorde on vans 9 metres and above, Saying that I did think that the Concorde we drove without front air looked a little low and was a quite efficient "pot hole finder", rear air does seem the norm though I guess partly for ride height with the up to 2000kg payload but also for getting big overhangs onto ferries and up ramps.

Martin

So after almost 2 years with the front air Martin what is the overall verdict after such a long test, was it worth it, has it make a good difference? Do you recommend?

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[funflair]

So after almost 2 years with the front air Martin what is the overall verdict after such a long test, was it worth it, has it make a good difference? Do you recommend?

Yes,

When they fit the semi air bags they have to put on spacers at the same time and either this or the air takes out a little bit of roll coming off curbs and over fields, it also smooths out the front suspension a bit so overall in the grand scheme,

Yes,

Martin

 

[jongood]

It was very useful to use the offroad setting on the fullair to get on the Tanger Med ferry yesterday, most of the other mh's grounded - kerunch!!

 

[funflair]

It was very useful to use the offroad setting on the fullair to get on the Tanger Med ferry yesterday, most of the other mh's grounded - kerunch!!

Was that the ferry or the amount of booze in the garage.

Martin

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[CazPaul]

Although our Flair is registered 2006 it is built on a 2005 IVECO 60C chassis which I think is sometimes called a low frame meaning that the driving area and dashboard are lower down meaning that there is a step down inside the vehicle to the cockpit, this is fine and means that you get an even bigger windscreen so a great view BUT it does mean that you can not fit the VB full air suspension. The chassis already has original IVECO air on the rear and is fully automatic with a manual override for raise and lower.

I don't know when it was introduced but VB now do a SemiAir kit for the front of this chassis so it was on my list for Santa. "Why does it need it" you may ask and the straight answer is I didn't know that it did or more to the point what benefit we would get, anyway it seems that we cant find a suitable replacement for the Flair so might as well add some more options. The original suspension does crash a bit into potholes and the like and Santa came up trumps at Christmas so I spoke to Mick (top bloke) at SAP http://www.specialistautomotiveproducts.co.uk/ and the bits came through from the Netherlands pretty quickly and it was all fitted yesterday.

Link Removed this link basically shows the air bag that is installed into the front suspension suspension to assist the original torsion bars, the system is fitted with it own pump and manual controls so you can fiddle with the pressure and ride height as you drive.

So we left Mick's workshop at about 6pm last night with the air pressure set at about 4bar, the first impression was that the front was sitting a bit higher than before which it is by possibly 2 inches, within a couple of miles Mrs Funflair pronounced that it was quieter which was quite a relief as it was me that wanted it fitting, within another couple of miles our chosen route was stopped by blue lights and we had to turn down a side road which I am sure was pretty rough but we didn't get the crashing at the front anymore, eventually we got onto the A1 North and there is a section that has a poor "ribbed surface" which can be quite noisy but we hardly heard that, closer to home we know the road is really bad but again the harshness was taken from the bumps.

So in conclusion, I need to fiddle with the pressures to see what is the best setting but there is certainly an improvement to the ride quality so money well spent, ah "how much" you ask? the basic kit is £1300 but the optional pump and controls add another £500 so total £1800 expertly fitted to Mick's usual high standards of course. So now just need to get out again to set it up and test a bit more well we have been at home nearly 24 hours sop getting itchy feet.

Martin

VB no longer fit the front Iveco air suspension Martin, not sure why this is.
The only option for my Iveco 40C 4900GVW is rear full 2C air and at over £4500 I will be sticking with the fitted Goldschmitt semi system
It's nice to enquire though I fancied a shock.

 

[funflair]

VB no longer fit the front Iveco air suspension Martin, not sure why this is.
The only option for my Iveco 40C 4900GVW is rear full 2C air and at over £4500 I will be sticking with the fitted Goldschmitt semi system
It's nice to enquire though I fancied a shock.

Thats interesting Paul, I will have bend Mick ear next time I see him.

Martin

EDIT still listed on their web site though.

 

[CazPaul]

Thats interesting Paul, I will have bend Mick ear next time I see him.

Martin

EDIT still listed on their web site though.

Unfortunately the front upgrade is no longer available was their email to me today Martin so the only upgrade we can offer you is the full 2 C rear air which they attached the quote for
They apologised for not getting back sooner but said this was because they were waiting for info from VB on the front air, which I presume VB has just informed SAP it is no longer available.

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