Is this a) legal and b) safe? (1 Viewer)

[RogerThat]

Having followed a recent thread about electrically heated towels rails, I've seriously got itchy fingers now

I'm thinking of killing two birds with one stone here. The first is a quick and easy way to dry towels in winter. The second is to stop my bathroom being an ice box (I've no blown air).

So my bathroom is more of a 'wet room' arrangement, I have the toilet, sink and shower all in the one room and I pull a shower curtain around in front of the toilet when showering (not sure why actually?!).

Here's my plan!

Affix an electric (240v mains) towel radiator to the back wall of the bathroom, above the toilet.

Excuse the annotations on the photos, art was never my strong point!

The green bit is where the radiator will go, the red line is where I intend to route the mains cable (inside some conduit/trunking) which exists the bottom of the radiator:

The wire will run up the right hand corner of the wall and in to the cubby cupboard above the toilet:

Then the wire will run across the inside of the cubby cupboard towards the left.

It will then exit the front of the cupboard (again, still inside some trunking) and it will follow this line, across the top of the doorway, and out the wall on the left, which takes it in to the wardrobe where my fuse box is:

That photo was hard work lol!

The trunking will be behind the curtain rail, the arrow is just to show the intended route of direction.

When showering, the curtain pulls in front of the toilet, so the radiator won't come in to contact with water:

So my questions are:

1) Is this legal? Do motorhomes have to comply with any rules like my house would in regards to building regs or something?!

and

2) Is this safe?

Water and mains voltage in the same room? I'm not so sure...

The odds of it getting wet are slim to none, but accidents do happen...

I could always switch it off (the power switch will be outside of the bathroom, near the other main controls) but again, accidents happen, I may forget...

What if I fitted a relay? So as soon as the water is turned on, the radiator is isolated?

Thoughts, comments, experiences, suggestions - all welcome

 

[Boringfrog]

How do you heat the rest of your van?

 

[Gromett]

As an ex sparky I would not want to do this for myself.

My 1st concern would be that the heater itself was rated for full immersion in water. Secondly the connector would need to be up to it as well. I would then want to confirm that none of the parts involved would corrode over time due to the high humidity. Lots of other concerns but these are the main ones.

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[Gromett]

PS: I would class the location as Zone 1 myself as there is no physical barrier between the source of water and wall concerned.

 

[mitzimad]

domestic regs dont apply to motorhomes problem is heated towel rails come with a short lead prewired so you will need a joint inside the bath room which should be a fused spur i would put the spur inside a high ip rated box

 

[Deleted member 29692]

1) the rules for mo

PS: I would class the location as Zone 1 myself as there is no physical barrier between the source of water and wall concerned.

In domestic (house) terms a wetroom is all Zone 1.

Even if the towel rail itself was up to it (unlikely) the connection is, as you say, as issue

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[chaser]

Electric towel rails are fine in house bathrooms , so what's the difference, but what we do is leave the shower door open in the mornings , then it is the same temperature as the rest of the van

 

[Deleted member 29692]

domestic regs dont apply to motorhomes problem is heated towel rails come with a short lead prewired so you will need a joint inside the bath room which should be a fused spur i would put the spur inside a high ip rated box

The regs might not apply but common sense still does.

Putting something that's not properly waterproof in an location where it's likely to get wet?

 

[Jim]

Heated towel rails, how the other half live!

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[Deleted member 29692]

Electric towel rails are fine in house bathrooms ,

Yes and no.

House bathrooms are divided up into zones in the electrical regs. Only certain equipment may be installed in each zone. Wet rooms, which a MH bathroom is, are different again.

I've never seen a towel rail rated for Zone 1 which this would be in house terms.

 

[Chris]

We have got a portable electric towel rail.

Still in the box I admit, but we have one

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

I think that you plan is fine providing you do not use the shower and wet the heated rail whether switched on or not.
The are designed to be used in damp and humid bathrooms but not be actually in the wet (shower).

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[Fellraven]

The wire could exit through the wall and the FSU be on the outside. If it is basically in the same room as the shower, curtain or not then it could get wet. I believe it would have to be IP4x rated ? Still wouldn't do it myself.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I believe it would have to be IP4x rated ?

Nope.

IPx6 in Zone 1

 

[gus-lopez]

& over here if you haven't a 220v socket in any bathroom your new house won't get signed off by the planners. & they aren't being electrocuted daily here.

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[Bobby22]

Steam and condensation will be a big problem even though the rail will not get direct soaking.

Don't be daft get another solution imo.

 

[Bobby22]

oops

 

[Just smiffy]

Don't be silly, you know your going to burn your back when your on the crapper......

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[Deleted member 29692]

Nope Zone 0 as it is inside the shower.

It's a wet room. Zone 0 doesn't apply, the whole thing is Zone 1.

 

[RogerThat]

How do you heat the rest of your van?

I've a trusty Carver gas heater which I leave on low over night or sometimes I use a little portable electric fan heater but it's not very good.

PS: I would class the location as Zone 1 myself as there is no physical barrier between the source of water and wall concerned.

Me too...

domestic regs dont apply to motorhomes

Good to know, thanks

They are designed to be used in damp and humid bathrooms but not be actually in the wet (shower).

Indeed they are. In a house (bathroom) they'd be subjected to similar amounts of humidity and high air moisture contents.

Steam and condensation will be a big problem even though the rail will not get direct soaking.

Will it though? As per above, these rads are designed for bathrooms. But that said, I'm still unsure how well they are built.

Don't be daft get another solution imo.

I'm not completely sold on this idea yet

Don't be silly, you know your going to burn your back when your on the crapper......

Lol! This had actually crossed my mind

Anyone have any thoughts on the relay idea? I could easily tap in to the 12v supply to the water pump so as soon as any tap is turned on it could cut the power to the radiator.

I'm still unsure of the whole humidity thing though. Yes these rads are designed for steamy bathrooms but in a MH shower the space is much more confined, much higher than usual humidity than you'd find at home perhaps? I don't know...

Again the odds of the rad having actual water sprayed on it is near zero. But again, no physical barrier as such (I don't class a shower curtain as a sufficient barrier!)

 

[RogerThat]

Just found this on the Dimplex web site:

Considering they are often installed in small areas, this means it is not unusual for a wet room to have little or no wall space which falls outside of Zone 1. More importantly, it often means the whole room can be exposed to water jets from the shower so electrical equipment, including towel rails, should be IPX5 rated.

With this in mind, in previous years installers were unable to fit electric towel rails in small wet rooms but innovations from some manufacturers like Dimplex have seen the introduction of IPX5 rated towel rails. With even more watertight elements than previous IPX4 rated models, it means they can be safely fitted in even the smallest of bathroom spaces – opening up new opportunities for wet room installations.

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[RogerThat]

Ha! Just found this on a different site

In Zone 1, elements must be protected by 30mA RCD (Residual Current Device). The electrical connection to the power supply for these elements must be in Zones 2/3 of the bathroom in compliance with BS7671:2001 - I.E.E. Wiring Regulations. NOTE: It is recommended that NO electric or dual fuel towel rails are installed within shower cubicles.

 

[Bobby22]

I've a trusty Carver gas heater which I leave on low over night or sometimes I use a little portable electric fan heater but it's not very good.

There is your answer, get yourself a new fan heater........they are not very expensive and will quickly heat your van and shower area in no time.

 

[Larrynwin]

Simple answer if risk too great , forget electric and plumb your towel rail into your hot water system.

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[SM0129]

On a boat I used to own, i has a Webato Thermotop running a couple of radiators

 

[tonyidle]

Considering that electric shower units are fitted within shower cubicles and are certainly not watertight (they are splashproof) I would suggest a heated towel rail fed via the RCD that's already in the van will be safe.

 

[Gromett]

One final note, You may not get a decent earth on some campsites or reversed polarity etc. I can't explain it but my memory is nudging me that there may be a potentially risky situation here... too tired to concentrate and confirm my brain nagging..... But it might be worth investigating this risk as well.

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[pappajohn]

& over here if you haven't a 220v socket in any bathroom your new house won't get signed off by the planners. & they aren't being electrocuted daily here.

Over here, if you HAVE a 230v socket in a bathroom it WONT get signed off.
Anything in a bathroom has to be IP rated for the zone its in, double insulated (shaver socket etc) or 12vac.
A domestic socket will NEVER gain IP rating.

 

[pappajohn]

Considering that electric shower units are fitted within shower cubicles and are certainly not watertight (they are splashproof) I would suggest a heated towel rail fed via the RCD that's already in the van will be safe.

The case may not be waterproof but they are still IP6 rated internally.
Even a light fitting in a bathroom or kitchen now has to be approved for fitting in such rooms.