Is this a daft idea for hot water/heating & cooking on a box luton conversion? (1 Viewer)

[Collectors]

Hi, we are new to the forum & trying to do some things to save the cash.
We are getting a Mercedes LWB Sprinter & are purley at the planning stage & falling over backwards at some of the prices for the noisy heating & hot water units that aren't the cheapest of things, & as soon as camper van or boat is mentioned they think your rich & prices seem to go up.
Now, when we start the build we will get a van with roller shutters & a tail lift as we want to take a motorbike. This may be fitted to the tail lift or stand across the back of the van behind the roller shutters & a partition built about 800mm into the van to separate from the living area. “It just fits”
Now the Question:
Has anyone tried fitting a combi LPG boiler to a self build camper van?. Now, a good quality Webasto or similar is a thousand pound plus & to be honest, “noisey” yet a good quality small LPG combi boiler is around £450 inc flue + an underslung 80-100 Lt tank, fitted is around £400, meaning i got heat/hot water & cooking for about the same as a Webasto heater. Now I know it's easy to pressurize the heating & make this side of things work, “plus it a lot quieter” but wasn't sure on pumping the hot water through a combi, so if there is any plumber reading, any advice would be appreciated for this idea. Oh!, the boiler would be fitted on the shutter side of the partition.

Thanks


Chris

 

[morrmorr]

Not sure how a domestic boiler will like life on the road ?

 

[Odd job]

The main problems would be

1 the voltage, all domestic combi boilers are 230 volts

2 the weight, if you're planning on loading a motorbike and a tail lift, your pay load would not leave enough for radiators let alone all the other stuff, water in the rads, pump inverter and the battery power to run the whole set up.

3 the flue of a domestic boiler is intended to go through a wall so would be too long and a vertical flue may not stand the wind forces when driving.

4 vibration none of this equipment is intended to take life on the road.

Having said all of that, boiler manufactures do have mobile training units with boilers built in a van, but these do not have radiators, so even if you get around all the other problems, you will still be defeated by the weight.

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[daveandsan]

Terry might be able to give you some information.

 

[Collectors]

The main problems would be

1 the voltage, all domestic combi boilers are 230 volts
A. We would have 230 plug in & around 550 amp of batteries + solar @ 450 watt .

2 the weight, if you're planning on loading a motorbike and a tail lift, your pay load would not leave enough for radiators let alone all the other stuff, water in the rads, pump inverter and the battery power to run the whole set up.
A. Motor bike is 170k, most tail lifts are 500kl lifting capacity min, rads can be aluminum or posily 2 lowdown blow air heaters/kick plinth. The load for a sprinter is 1500kl & we would also add adjustable air suspension balloons to help. So with 300kl water, boiler 50kl, gas 100kl, bike 170kl batteries & inverter 160kl = 770kl + the fit out & added air susp.


3 The flue of a domestic boiler is intended to go through a wall so would be too long and a vertical flue may not stand the wind forces when driving.
A.Combi boilers now days quite often use 2 x 2" waste pipe to breath & blow. These could be easily added & taken off when on site with just some small stubs with caps on for traveling.

4 vibration none of this equipment is intended to take life on the road.
A.Could be a good point

Having said all of that, boiler manufacturers do have mobile training units with boilers built in a van, but these do not have radiators, so even if you get around all the other problems, you will still be defeated by the weight.
A. This is why we need help on the planning side & any pitfalls. But i think it's possible. At worst, we may look into somthing larger.
Thanks for the input, every bit helps.

Chris

 

[GPW]

One thing to remember when DIY building a van is that article about the Ford Sierra some years (decades?) ago - but still relevant today. They calculated the cost of building a Sierra from all the spare parts to be around 10x (IIRC) the cost of just buying one ready made.
I.e. many DIYers fail to do a full spreadsheet costing of their build and then compare it to buying a ready made used or new van.

You'll be paying full retail for the boiler (yes I know eBay seems cheap), but don't think for a moment that the big manufacturers like Dethleffs, Swift, Adria etc pay those prices. When they order ten thousand Dometic windows, 500 Peugeot Boxers or 2,000 Truma boilers they pay what they can negotiate for such bulk orders, so already a ready-made van costs them far less in parts than you or I would be able to build it for.

Then you have to consider resale, how much do old DIY vans go for compared to a known brand+model? Don't imagine this will be your first van as they never are . Then there's your time - finishing a van can take far longer than you'd imagine - all the while you can't use it.

So while your DIY plans sound interesting, price it all up first, subtract the resale value and that's the real cost. I'm not certain the jets on any domesticn boiler will be right for your motorhome regulator, but its presence may encounter 'consumer resistance' come selling time.

My advice is to stick with a cheap £130 diesel air heater (+ BMW diesel water heater as reqiured) or buy a ready made van.

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[Minxy]

Gromett any comments?

 

[Odd job]

You may be able to make it work, I still think the biggest problem will be weight, once converted most PVC vans have about 200 - 300 kg payload and that is with lightweight fittings and no tail lift or bike. Another thing is, I doubt anyone Gas Safe registered would commission the boiler, so it may invalidate your insurance. The solar may not be enough on cloudy days in the winter to keep up with demand. But, if you can make it work it would be great, although I'm thinking if it could be done the converters would have done it already.

Regarding the flue, if you go for a twin pipe system, remember that is the type with the most danger, concentric flues work on the principal that if the pipe discharging the products has a leak it will be into the outer flue section and drawn back into the boiler where it can be detected and the boiler can then shut down on it's safety device. With a twin pipe system the discharge would be into the van so have a greater danger, and the push fit flue sections are not intended to come apart on a regular basis, perhaps if you go ahead you would be better off with a vertical flue through the roof. This could be taken off the boiler for transport and the hole fitted with a plug, you would still have the problem of the flue seal wearing but at least it would be a concentric flue so safer.

 

[TheBig1]

the best advice I can offer, from experience of converting several vans over the years. Buy a damp or damaged caravan as a donor for all the expensive parts

heating
hot water
hob
oven
fridge freezer
battery charger
control panel
locker doors
shower unit with door
toilet
possibly some upholstery
windows
rooflights
maybe if youre lucky even solar panels and controller

then sell the shell to somebody to build a trailer or scrap it

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[jezport]

If you are always going to have EHU go 100% electric for heating cooking and water

 

[Minxy]

the best advice I can offer, from experience of converting several vans over the years. Buy a damp or damaged caravan as a donor for all the expensive parts

heating
hot water
hob
oven
fridge freezer
battery charger
control panel
locker doors
shower unit with door
toilet
possibly some upholstery
windows
rooflights
maybe if youre lucky even solar panels and controller

then sell the shell to somebody to build a trailer or scrap it

That's what I'd do if I was doing another self build.

 

[TheBig1]

the best advice I can offer, from experience of converting several vans over the years. Buy a damp or damaged caravan as a donor for all the expensive parts

heating
hot water
hob
oven
fridge freezer
battery charger
control panel
locker doors
shower unit with door
toilet
possibly some upholstery
windows
rooflights
maybe if youre lucky even solar panels and controller

then sell the shell to somebody to build a trailer or scrap it

forgot to add kitchen sink
taps
bathroom sink
pump
miles of recyclable wiring and pipes

and the all important table

oh and insulated habitation door for access

gas pipes and fittings

The list of parts you need to convert is nearly endless but most of it can be recycled from a caravan. I have seen damaged modern vans make £200-£500 at auction

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[davanne]

the best advice I can offer, from experience of converting several vans over the years. Buy a damp or damaged caravan as a donor for all the expensive parts

heating
hot water
hob
oven
fridge freezer
battery charger
control panel
locker doors
shower unit with door
toilet
possibly some upholstery
windows
rooflights
maybe if youre lucky even solar panels and controller

then sell the shell to somebody to build a trailer or scrap it

That’s exactly what my late husband did
He bought a brand new damaged caravan (it had been reversed into in the dealers yard)
He stripped it all out and kept what he needed for the conversion then we sold everything else including the shell.
In the end we had only paid around 2k for all the brand new parts that he needed.

 

[Collectors]

Thanks for the input everyone, it's all helping. Like the idea of an old/damp caravan for parts, Just seen doors/windows/ & lots of other goodies as there are a few out their to choose from.
Possibly going all electric is an idea. Would have to up the battery bank for when there is no hook up, but could even add a geny for when we won't disturb anyone else.
But that's all ok adding these things with all the other weight savings.
I am lucky that i am retired & have all the space i need to do the work at home.
Keep the suggestion coming, it can always lead down different paths with good idea's.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

You are going to have to keep an eye on weight
Your comments suggest that its an area you have not fully considered when you respond saying that a” tail lift is 500kg capacity so no issue” !

Do you know how much the sprinter weighs empty before you put a bag of crisps in it?
If the answer is “no” then you need to know before you put 300kg of bike and tailift in it, a domestic boiler (that will rattle to bits in a week) 550 amps of batteries and solar that you wont be able to fit on the roof

Or alternatively, is the post a wind-up and I swallowed it ??

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[Wildbill]

chines diesel heater
bill

 

[Collectors]

You are going to have to keep an eye on weight
Your comments suggest that its an area you have not fully considered when you respond saying that a” tail lift is 500kg capacity so no issue” !

Do you know how much the sprinter weighs empty before you put a bag of crisps in it?
If the answer is “no” then you need to know before you put 300kg of bike and tailift in it, a domestic boiler (that will rattle to bits in a week) 550 amps of batteries and solar that you wont be able to fit on the roof

Or alternatively, is the post a wind-up and I swallowed it ??

Is this a daft idea for hot water/heating & cooking on a box luton conversion?

Hi, we are new to the forum & trying to do some things to save the cash. We are getting a Mercedes LWB Sprinter & are purley at the planning stage & falling over backwards at some of the prices for the noisy heating & hot water units that aren't the cheapest of things, & as soon as camper van or...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[HandyAndy]

Sprinter is diesel powered, fit a diesel powered heater / hot water combi.. Truma combi D.. No brainer.
By the time you have faffed about adding gas tanks and hot water tanks and boilers and radiators, you'll have spent the cost of the Truma anyway..
As said, find one in a crashed camper / caravan and raid the thing for spares and you will be absolutely quids in.

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[Collectors]

On the heating side of things, i have done a couple of houses up in the winter time & it was cold living in that situation with no heating. I also like things to be quiet, so derv blow heater is a no,no. & calor gives off smell & a massive amount of condensation. But if your on a hook up or even an inverter, an electric blanket is a great way to keep warm & only around 65 watt.

 

[HandyAndy]

Combi D6 "E" has electric hook up function as well so can be in electric only mode if the supply is good enough..

 

[HandyAndy]

quote from Truma website..

In electrical mode output of 900 W (3.9 A) or 1800 W (7.8 A) can be manually preselected in accordance with the fuse pro-tection at the camp site.

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[Ralph-n-Bev]

We fitted a new Webasto heater. It’s not noisy at all.
The whole van gets really warm, with no cold spots. Fit all your tanks under the van. Meaning fresh water, waste, gas, then all your cupboard space is free. We’ve more storage space in our xlwb Peugeot than we had in our previous 6 birth MH.

 

[GPW]

I also like things to be quiet, so derv blow heater is a no,no.

When a cheap chinese diesel heater has slowed to idle it's very quiet indeed and only uses around 1Amp to run. The Truma 6D is much higher quality and gives you hot water too, also quiet.

If you want gas anyway for cooking then look at a donor caravan with gas Alde central heating.

 

[Camping Gaza]

If you dont go down the old caravan route and have room, I would get a good remote start generator (not a soppy suitcase type) and build it into a soundproof area in the van, or under it, and I mean sound and vibration proof.

Provide forced air cooling to the generator box and generator, themostatically controlled. like a car engine fan. Provide 2 stage silencing for the gennys motor

I would buy a cheap chinese heater for about 130 quid and plumb in into your diesel tank and locate the heater mainframe in the same area as your soundproof box for your genny

I would get an instant (like the undersink ones you can buy) electric hot water heater for my shower and sink, and run the genny when needed for this.

Your genny also tops up your battery bank when needed and provides 240v power through out the van if required (microwave, aux heating, even air conditioning etc etc)

This all saves weight, runs only when needed

For cooking and fridge 2 refillable gas bottles with auto changeover

Load your van with as much solar as you want

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[jockaneezer]

There's no smell or condensation from our Truma gas system, unless you press your nose up to the external exhaust ? Pretty quiet too, it's under the foot of our rear double, you can hear it purring away slightly when you're in bed, but it has never woken me up.

 

[HandyAndy]

I can't say fitting a generator is anyway a sensible idea, you just reduce your payload and available space.
You already have a internal combustion engine up front, just bolt a bigger alternator on the side of that if you need more output and save not only a load of money but have more space and no extra fuel tanks to worry about filling.

 

[Terry]

Hi I have not got full details but Eberspacher (wrong spelling) are doing a new heater /instant hot water boiler for £550/600 plus vat (trade) well worth looking into. My relation is a authorised Eberspacher dealer/ repair agent and they are importing them direct from Germany in response to the Chinese heaters.I will be getting one for my next build but that could be a while.

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[Gromett]

Too many variables to give full advice. But having lived in a van conversion for 10+ years I have a little experience...

The best route in my view is the Truma D if you have access locally to red diesel.

If you have budgetary constraints then consider one of the cheap chinese diesel heaters. Spares for them are dirt cheap so even if it breaks you can fix it extremely easily following youtube tutorials. They are very simple and if run correctly appear to be very reliable. Price is around £130 new.

Hot water is the harder one. There are camping/portable LPG powered heaters around but they do NOT have a balanced flue so are not safe to use indoors. If you are planning on fulltiming then I would advise against these as you will have problems in winter if you put it in the gap between the roller shutter and the living area. You CANNOT and must NOT have one of these inside your living space. It WILL kill you.

I would suggest for the water if you don't get the Truma D to try and get a second hand Eberspacher Hydronic. You can use this to heat water via a calorifier and it could also be used to power the heating system. Before fitting it, I would recommend learning how to dismantle and service it...

I am a fairly recent convert to diesel power for heating/hot water. This is because no matter how big your LPG tank you will eventually come to a stage during the winter where you are stuck due to the weather and can't top up. Whereas with Diesel you can get a couple of 20L jerry cans and keep a ready supply.

If you are going to be on hookup all the time, consider Mains powered water heater. These are dirt cheap and give you a plentiful supply of water. You can run little fan heaters to keep warm.

As I said initially. Not enough information to give actual advice tailored to you but hopefully the above was of some help?

 

[Jev88]

I saw a DIY conversion that used an instant lpg boiler - hot water on demand.
I don't know details but looked a bit like this one ...

16kw 8l Gas LPG Propane Tankless Instant Hot Water Heater Boiler Shower for sale online | eBay

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rover.ebay.com

Boiler

 

[Cheshirecat57]

I shouldn’t concern yourself peeps, 5 posts are used up now