Is this a common problem (1 Viewer)

Blue Knight

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Given that the motorhome has stood for a long time, has the garage ruled out diesel algae, or even thought about it?

Yes, the garage has mentioned diesel bug/algae Peter. We've mentioned it a few times in this thread. Like a dozen other things it could be possible but it's all in the hands of the guy doing the ground analysis.
 

Blue Knight

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Andrew
Thanks for all that useful information. Brilliant. I am beginning to think the technician is now just starting to throw parts at the van rather than methodically investigate. All at my expense and exactly what I feared. However I am to an extent stuck with it as the van is not drivable. There is a Fiat Professional dealer about 7 miles away and I am planning to check whether they have facilities to breakdown me in. Whether they would be an improvement I don’t know.
Armed with your info I also plan to tackle the techie if I can think of doing it in a way that wont offend him otherwise I could be well and truly in the lurch.
I’m also beginning to not care if the remap is lost, but thanks for the warning.
My understanding was the remap affected the volumes and length of air and fuel, and very little to the pressure. It also affected the turbo, but not sure in what way.
Again I’m indebted.

Richard

Morning Richard,

If you've got the chance today I would pop down to the Fiat Pro garage and explain the situation so far with the buzz-line that you're thinking of recovering it to them for repair.

If you phone them then you may just get fobbed-off with "bring the van over and we'll check it out" so an in-person visit may get you access to a technician for 5 minutes.

Like this thread the techy is not going to be able to magic an answer but there may be something a bit more obvious to a Fiat techy than it is to us amateurs :)

Do you know what the service history of the van is over the last 24-36months? Has it had the fuel filter changed and how many miles used in what period.

Tell me how you get on.

All the best,

Andrew

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Blue Knight

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Lets work backwards for a second:

1. You bought the van in Mar-21.
2. The previous owner stored it for 12-months prior to your purchase. He did 200-miles (max) in that 12-month period.
3. You filled up with premium diesel fuel 200-miles ago so you've had about 28-litres of diesel through the system.

....so can you recall how full the tank was when you purchased the van Richard?
 

Blue Knight

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P.S. You have already mentioned that the garage is in the process of replacing the fuel filter (FF) but if it was me I would make sure that I changed the FF first and then drove the vehicle before replacing the FPR.

If it runs OK, including when the engine is under load then you'll know where the problem is thereafter. If it continues then the fuel pressure/delivery problem is further up the line, i.e. the FPR or general area.

Good luck,

Andrew
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
OK
Sorry been working this morning so just called into garage for an update.
History wise I purchased th van in Feb this year 2021.
Previous keeper did about 1500 miles between mot which was approx April 2019 to 2020.
Only 200 miles recorded between April 2020 and me having the van this year. At some point in 2020 the van was put into dealer to sell on owners behalf.
Dealer delivered vehicle to me, about 120 miles and had about a third fuel in it. Since Feb I have refuelled three times before journeys filling up on each occasion, and done about 1000 miles. I always fill up before a trip so tank never went below a third if not more. The remap was done back in Feb and no problems.
I suspect the vehicle may have been left at the dealers for several months with little fuel before delivery.

On my last trip I did not refuel before the journey which is unusual, and I remember thinking I’d do it on the way home and it would be close to the red, about 80 miles remaining, so this is the lowest I’ve let it go. The fill up before this was premium.
I think it had regular services before purchase, but I know they were not full spec services, as it should have had a cam belt change at 5 years, and it didn’t. The dealer did a full service and cam belt change for me.
He has checked the fuel filter as he’s aware that they are suspect.

He has now changed the FPR, but the problem is still there. This morning it has been difficult to start, which it always is after it’s cut out, but it turns over well and eventually started. The problem of cutting out initially is when the vehicle is under load, but once the problem starts, it then either won’t start or if it does, can only be driven a short distance before cutting out.

He did pick up on one thing today. Apparently he took the pipes off the fuel filter and it appeared fuel supply was either intermittent or non existent. Not sure exacltly what he did but he is noW adamant that the fuel tank pump is the problem. He’s going to drop the tank and investigate. He has checked and their is power to the pump but it appears fuel may not be getting through consistently. I think he said there’s a filter in the tank but not sure.
It could be that the pump is picking stuff up from the bottom as I’ve let it get low.
Bear in mind that I am unable to drive the vehicle as it dies , especially under any load.

I’m in his hands at the moment.
Ive spoken with Fiat professional but they are only just starting up and cannot take any brakedowns as they have no room for storing vehicles.
Think that’s all for now.
Cheers

Richard

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Blue Knight

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OK
Sorry been working this morning so just called into garage for an update.
History wise I purchased th van in Feb this year 2021.
Previous keeper did about 1500 miles between mot which was approx April 2019 to 2020.
Only 200 miles recorded between April 2020 and me having the van this year. At some point in 2020 the van was put into dealer to sell on owners behalf.
Dealer delivered vehicle to me, about 120 miles and had about a third fuel in it. Since Feb I have refuelled three times before journeys filling up on each occasion, and done about 1000 miles. I always fill up before a trip so tank never went below a third if not more. The remap was done back in Feb and no problems.
I suspect the vehicle may have been left at the dealers for several months with little fuel before delivery.

On my last trip I did not refuel before the journey which is unusual, and I remember thinking I’d do it on the way home and it would be close to the red, about 80 miles remaining, so this is the lowest I’ve let it go. The fill up before this was premium.
I think it had regular services before purchase, but I know they were not full spec services, as it should have had a cam belt change at 5 years, and it didn’t. The dealer did a full service and cam belt change for me.
He has checked the fuel filter as he’s aware that they are suspect.

He has now changed the FPR, but the problem is still there. This morning it has been difficult to start, which it always is after it’s cut out, but it turns over well and eventually started. The problem of cutting out initially is when the vehicle is under load, but once the problem starts, it then either won’t start or if it does, can only be driven a short distance before cutting out.

He did pick up on one thing today. Apparently he took the pipes off the fuel filter and it appeared fuel supply was either intermittent or non existent. Not sure exacltly what he did but he is noW adamant that the fuel tank pump is the problem. He’s going to drop the tank and investigate. He has checked and their is power to the pump but it appears fuel may not be getting through consistently. I think he said there’s a filter in the tank but not sure.
It could be that the pump is picking stuff up from the bottom as I’ve let it get low.
Bear in mind that I am unable to drive the vehicle as it dies , especially under any load.

I’m in his hands at the moment.
Ive spoken with Fiat professional but they are only just starting up and cannot take any brakedowns as they have no room for storing vehicles.
Think that’s all for now.
Cheers

Richard

Hi Richard.... and what a total arse ache for you!!

It sounds to me as if he's gone through the relative systems in good order.

The only thing I can think of now is a faulty lift pump or an intermittent electrical problem to the pump itself.
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Andrew
Yes your right there.
Don’t know if he’s checked the pressure and control valves physically, but I have passed on your list to him so they can be if needed.
When you say lift pump is that the one in the fuel tank itself. If so that’s his next step. What effect would that have. I’m also wondering if it could be ECU related. He seems to think not.
I really don’t know what else would be affected by the 89 error code. I think he’s covered all bases now so hoping it’s tank and fuel supply related like he thinks. He’s changed all the main components so little else it can be. Should know tomorrow.
Where he goes next though is a mystery if not.
I think he’s a stayer though as he was talking about a similar problem that took him three weeks to find which was some secure wire somewhere.
 

Blue Knight

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Hi Richard,

Yes, the lift pump is located in the tank. In basic terms the lift pump pressure and the pressure in the fuel rail is monitored by the ECU and if they are not within their set defined operational tolerances (i.e. one pressure is out of sync) then the P0089 error code can be thrown up.

The problem with this particular code is that in theory there are a whole load of issues which can either directly or indirectly throw-up the P0089 code but, as you've guessed, they all centre around the many component bits of the fuel pressure line.

I'm hoping that the techy has already checked the Fuel Pressure Sensor on the rail as a lot of people go straight to replacing the FPR, thinking that the FPR is the problem, where in fact it's the FPS sensor that needs replacing first, i.e. a faulty FPS sensor can be the thing that is registering an incorrect pressure reading and this then tells the computer that the lift pump pressure and the rail pressure are out of sync. However, you've probably realised that they are all intrinsically connected and as mentioned before a bigger fault can often throw-up a smaller fault first (and this often disguises the real fault).

If the high lift pump is malfunctioning (it could be worn, clogged or have an electrical connection problem which hinders its performance and therefore the pressure rate), then this will clearly create a wonky pressure reading that is out of sync with the pressure in the rail........

.......and this can be the culprit for the P0089 code and the subsequent dodgy starting, running (under load) and stalling issues which you have experienced so far.

Conclusion: I hope the rail pressure sensor has been checked and if so then the next step is the high lift pump check.

All said, it's proving to be a bloody pain in the arse but I'm hoping we are almost at the end of the line and it will be fixed soon.

Fingers crossed,

All the best,

Andrew

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OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Andrew
Thanks for that. I have the feeling that he hasn’t checked the rail pressure sensor yet. He’s discovered a poor flow rate through the filter and gone straight to the pump. Hopefully we will progress tomorrow one way or the other. I’ll let you know.
Richard
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Andrew
How would you test the rail pressure sensor, or would it just be a replacement.
 

Blue Knight

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Andrew
How would you test the rail pressure sensor, or would it just be a replacement.

Hi Richard,

It's quite a simple job TBH.

In basic terms a Fuel Pressure Sensor is fitted in the fuel rail and this is subsequently connected to the ECU. When the FPS is working correctly then it will allow for a number of different voltages to be sent to the ECU depending on its operational state. These are called 'signal voltages'.

This means that the FPS (if working correctly) will allow for specific signal voltages to be communicated back to the ECU for when the vehicle is in the following states of operation:

(a) Ignition on, engine off.

(b) Ignition on, engine idling.

(c) Ignition on, engine RPM increased.


Fiat will have a defined set of voltages for the above 'signals' so if the test signal voltages are out of tolerance then you know you have a problem.

That said, the technician seems to think that a reduced fuel flow/pressure problem exists from the tank so the 'low pressure' lift pump could be the offending item because it's not providing the specific fuel volume to the forward fuel system......and this would throw up a P0089 code.

It certainly looks as if it's going in the right direction.

All the best,

Andrew

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OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Thanks Andrew.
I reckon this should have been one of the first tests he ran before starting to bolt on parts. 😡
Oh well at least I’ll know the fuel system components are new, even if it’s cost a fortune.
Thankyou
Richard
 
Sep 9, 2020
4
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24 years
Richard. Hi. I'm new to this site too. Been following for a while but decided to reply because we've got the same rig as you and had exactly the same problem last year. After the first lockdown (14 weeks) we took her out for a spin and broke down. RAC diagnosed fuel pressure regulator problem. After much sucking of teeth and shaking of heads we gave the local garage the van.
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Ok so you know what I’m going through 😂 What was the final problem and cure.

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Sep 9, 2020
4
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Swift coach built
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24 years
Anyway the upshot was he disconnected the injectors individually, an carried out a 'wiggle test' on the engine harness to the injectors and the fault went away! Expected hefty bill, hugely suprised. Said he didn't know what it was. Hope you get rid of this soon. Good luck.
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Wow . Wished I’d suggested that at the beginning. You never know I might have to resort to trying that in the end, Do you have the same model and year as I believe there was a problem with harness length on an earlier model.
 
Sep 9, 2020
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Swift coach built
Exp
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2007 swift voyager. We suspect our engine was remapped, looking at the paperwork, but knowing absolutely nothing about engines can't tell you if that's relevant. Maybe just got lucky, but I hate all this reliance on 'codes'. Nothing beats a sensible guy doing basic checks. Anyway good luck.

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Blue Knight

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Wow . Wished I’d suggested that at the beginning. You never know I might have to resort to trying that in the end, Do you have the same model and year as I believe there was a problem with harness length on an earlier model.

I reckon the injector harness has been more than wiggled with over the last 24-hours.

......just saying :)
 
Sep 9, 2020
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Swift coach built
Exp
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Like I said. Good luck.

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This thread is fascinating, I can't wait for the finale, when we finally find out whats wrong. It is like watching Line of Duty.
I haven't got a Fiat, but Richard is so amazingly helpful I am thinking of getting one.
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Andrew
I have just picked up the van from the garage. The technician was confident that the fuel pump had cured the problem. He said it had been getting harder and harder to start it every day and that yesterday they had to push it into the workshop.

Having fitted the pump he could hear it priming and it fired up straightaway. I have taken it for a short 15 mile run and it appears fine even under load. It will have a longer run next Wednesday. I need to build confidence in it again as I am constantly waiting for the ping of the warning light !!!
He said the tank was clean, and could only put the failure down to a faulty part and bad luck at such a low mileage.

Hopefully the fact that I have only replaced the one injector, and that the pump was the real problem, will have no bearing on the life of the remaining injector.
Thanks for all you help. It’s kept me sane over the last week,

If anyone has been entertained following this thread, placing it on a par with line of duty, all contributions to the garage bill are welcome. 😜

Richard

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Sep 17, 2017
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Birmingham, UK
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Andrew
I have just picked up the van from the garage. The technician was confident that the fuel pump had cured the problem. He said it had been getting harder and harder to start it every day and that yesterday they had to push it into the workshop.

Having fitted the pump he could hear it priming and it fired up straightaway. I have taken it for a short 15 mile run and it appears fine even under load. It will have a longer run next Wednesday. I need to build confidence in it again as I am constantly waiting for the ping of the warning light !!!
He said the tank was clean, and could only put the failure down to a faulty part and bad luck at such a low mileage.

Hopefully the fact that I have only replaced the one injector, and that the pump was the real problem, will have no bearing on the life of the remaining injector.
Thanks for all you help. It’s kept me sane over the last week,

If anyone has been entertained following this thread, placing it on a par with line of duty, all contributions to the garage bill are welcome. 😜

Richard
Would be nice if they could bench test the pump to demonstrate it's faulty. It's all too common these days to fix things by changing random things until the problem appears to go away... only for it to reoccur later. Or worse, new problems pop up that confuse matters because they've 'tried' things.
 

Blue Knight

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Andrew
I have just picked up the van from the garage. The technician was confident that the fuel pump had cured the problem. He said it had been getting harder and harder to start it every day and that yesterday they had to push it into the workshop.

Having fitted the pump he could hear it priming and it fired up straightaway. I have taken it for a short 15 mile run and it appears fine even under load. It will have a longer run next Wednesday. I need to build confidence in it again as I am constantly waiting for the ping of the warning light !!!
He said the tank was clean, and could only put the failure down to a faulty part and bad luck at such a low mileage.

Hopefully the fact that I have only replaced the one injector, and that the pump was the real problem, will have no bearing on the life of the remaining injector.
Thanks for all you help. It’s kept me sane over the last week,

If anyone has been entertained following this thread, placing it on a par with line of duty, all contributions to the garage bill are welcome. 😜

Richard

That's fantastic news Richard - I'm really chuffed for you sir.

I don't think you'll have any immediate issues with the other injectors TBH. With your recent vehicle case history as is, the fact that one injector has failed is not an indication of the health of the others since the techy has already established that your fuel system is in very good health.

The dodgy lift pump was clearly not able to supply sufficient fuel volume to the forward part of the fuel system and, hey-presto, it threw up a P0089 code.

When you get the chance I would fill the tank, get the engine temperatures to normal and then give it a couple of hard driving miles.

That said, if the Quantum map has increased your torque gains considerably over normal then you don't want to drive like an F1 driver in low gear as the last thing you'll want is a slipping clutch, lol.

The only thing to say now is that I hope you have a tip-top holiday.

All the best,

Andrew

P.S. I hope the garage returned your old FPR since it's not broken and it might help you out in the future.
 
OP
OP
RGCH999
Feb 5, 2016
196
86
South Wales UK
Funster No
41,593
MH
Murvi Morocco XLB
Exp
8 years
Thanks Andrew and a good point about the regulator. I’ll get onto him after the weekend.
Thanks again
Richard

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Feb 10, 2013
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off and on 30 years
Project amber on utube had a similar problem on his Mercedes might be worth watching
 
Oct 29, 2008
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PVC
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since 2008
Hope you are sorted. We had a similar problem on a 2.8jtd ducato after a seal on the injection pump was fitted by a so called bosch authorized dealer.
After that we got the eml on hills. He messed about with it for months. I lost faith and took it Poweline Dervices in Shipley. The fixed it first time.
The original repairer has contaminated the injection pump damaging it and 1 injector. They fitted a refurbished pump and injector. And the fault was sorted. Barclaycard refunded me the original charge and £300 towards the new pump after a lot of arguments with their non uk centre. I threatened to take Barclaycard to court and suddenly a nice lady from the UK called me and offered the refund.
Lesson learnt, go to a specialist.

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