Is this a common problem (1 Viewer)

[RGCH999]

Following a breakdown it appears I have a fault in the fuel pressure regulator. 2015 Fiat Ducaton130 multi jet 2.3 model
Engine starts but cuts out after 30;seconds and throws out the warning light. Looks as if there may be a fuel leak around the regulator but wondering if anyone has come across this fault before.

 

[Blue Knight]

A few questions:

1. Did the breakdown guy give you a specific error code or was it him just giving a general diagnosis about the FPR.

2. Have you identified an actual fuel leak or do you just suspect one at this stage.

3. Any black smoke from the exhaust.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[RGCH999]

No he didn’t give me the actual code, but said it was indicating fuel pressure regulator fault.
I haven’t identified a leak but he said there was diesel around the supply line at the unit. His intention had been to try to tighten the nut, but that he couldn’t access it as the oil filter was obscuring access.
I don’t believe there was any smoke.
It is possible to start the engine but it takes a lot of turning over rather than firing up straightaway. After about 20 seconds it then dies as if fuel starvation, or the management system is switching everything down. I am wondering whether these regulators are a common problem. I appreciate the fault could be anywhere else fuel related, even injectors, and I need to do a diagnostic myself to get the actual code.

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[Blue Knight]

Thanks for the info - it's a bit of a mixed bag of issues until you have a code or you can identify a visual problem (now that would be easy eh).

I'm not keen on just 'tightening something up' unless a part has been previously replaced and it was under torqued when re-fitted.

That said, it has to be one of the following IMO:

1. Fuel pressure sensor on the rail: Faulty FPS, or dislodged, corroded internal FPS terminals or a damaged connection back to ECU. Check the wires for mice attacks.

2. Pressure control valve sensor: As above.

3. FPR: Sticky diaphragm.

4. Leaks: leading to the FPR.

Until you can get your hands on the codes then I would do a visual leak check and then remove, apply WD40 and resit the various FPS and PCV sensors. If one signal is working and the other not then the ECU will close down the system soon enough (as it is doing now) as it'll interprest the two main fuel pressure readings as being way out of synch with each other.

Happy hunting and tell me what you find.

All the best,

Andrew

 

[RGCH999]

Andrew
Many thanks for that. It’s been recovered to my local garage, so hopefully Tuesday they will do a full scan and that’ll throw some more light on the subject. I’ll let you know what codes they come up with. My only worry is that it was remapped by Quantum about 1000 miles ago. They have assured me that the remap will not cause any issues and hopefully that’s right. I would hate to replace an item only to find it fail again. I may have to consider mapping it back to where it was, but will see what the garage is. I also hope it doesn’t turn into one of those instances where they replace parts only to find the problem persists. Starts to get expensive then.
Ill keep you in the picture.
Thanks again
Richard

 

[Blue Knight]

Andrew
Many thanks for that. It’s been recovered to my local garage, so hopefully Tuesday they will do a full scan and that’ll throw some more light on the subject. I’ll let you know what codes they come up with. My only worry is that it was remapped by Quantum about 1000 miles ago. They have assured me that the remap will not cause any issues and hopefully that’s right. I would hate to replace an item only to find it fail again. I may have to consider mapping it back to where it was, but will see what the garage is. I also hope it doesn’t turn into one of those instances where they replace parts only to find the problem persists. Starts to get expensive then.
Ill keep you in the picture.
Thanks again
Richard

Hi Richard, that's really good info - many thanks.

Do you know if the remap is an actual remap whereby the ECU itself was reprogrammed or where the Quantum guys have just added a box.

A box remap will normally take its sensor reading from the Fuel pressure sensor on the rail so there could potentially be a problem with the connection which intercepts the FP signal.

All the best,

Andrew

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[RGCH999]

Andrew
No this was an actual downloaded remap. Apparently there is a generic download for the Actual model so they didnt have to do anything other than rewrite. They have definately not added a box. The installers I use don’t recommend tuning boxes. The company itself is reputable. Not someone who does it all on your driveway.

 

[RGCH999]

Sorry meant to say overwrite the ECU

 

[Blue Knight]

Sorry meant to say overwrite the ECU

No worries Richard,

It'll be interesting to see what error codes come back and if there are any leaks present.

Speaking of error codes, I'm not certain if Quantum will disable the EGR circuit to help improve the level of cool air charge to the turbo so there's one more potential area for examination.

....at least we've ringfenced the problem to somewhere within the engine bay, potentially, lol

I won't sleep now.

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[RGCH999]

lol. I just hope whatever is thrown up and replaced cures the problem. Don’t fancy 6weeks of “ I’m afraid the fault is still there so we now think it’s ————-?.?. We’ve ordered one.

 

[RGCH999]

Andrew
an update from the garage. He’s put his computer on it and it came up with fuel pressure insufficient, and when he’s gone for more detail the only error it’s thrown up is fuel injector faulty. He assures me his equipment is second to none (£10000 worth) and he’s got faith in it. They are a reputable garage specialising in Porsche, so I’m pretty sure he knows what he’s on about. He also said that when you start it up you can actually hear on tick over the lumpiness. He doesn’t know which injector so he’s got more tests to run to establish that. Is it a long job changing an injector. What could have caused it to go on a 15000 mile engine, although I believe it was standing for almost 12 months due to the COVID restrictions prior to me buying it.
Richard

 

[Blue Knight]

Morning Richard,

The initial diagnosis (lumpy running) is certainly an indicator of a dodgy injector(s) but it's also an indication of the fuel system in general so it's not an exact science.

In theory it could still be an FPR problem as in some cases an engine throws off an error code for one component whereas it's the bigger component up the fuel line which is the real problem and you find the smaller component down the line displaying the problem instead.

Diesel engines do really need a diesel specialist but if your guy knows his stuff then that's good enough for me.

His 'further investigation' will likely be a diesel leakoff test so that'll be simple enough to do.

However, injectors do fail quite often but, more importantly, they also get stuck because of oxidisation of the component parts. Water penetrates though the scuttle just below the windscreen and then sits at the top of the injector chamber which subsequently causes erosion of the metal.

If one injector does need replacing then I reckon a 30-40 minute slot will allow for full changeover but if the injector is stuck (for the reasons mentioned above) then expect a much larger bill.

Also, if only one injector fails the test then it still doesn't mean the rest are 100% efficient as a leakoff test will normally allow for a 10% variation. I'm not saying to change all of the injectors but if one has failed due to certain conditions then it's likely/probable that the other will go too at some point.

Your 2015 van was probably built in 2014 so that's more than ample time for injector failure to occur.

The garage is certainly not wrong but like any vehicle fault diagnosis they have to start somewhere. I would still ensure the FPR is not overlooked though.

Tell me how it unfolds.

All the best (and good luck),

Andrew

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[RGCH999]

Andrew
Yes the worry is others may fail, but it’s a gamble. They could last ages if I’m lucky, and time and cost are against me at the moment. The garage is very busy and won’t want the extra work, plus I need it back for next week. I just have to hope that all goes to plan.
The injectors are covered and I believe the scuttle leak like the one that I had on my 2008 van has been sorted. Personally I think lack of use may have been the cause. In the twelve months prior to me getting the vehicle in March, only 200 miles use can’t have been good for it.
Also whether it’s coincidence, but about 200 miles ago I filled up with premium grade diesel for the first time. Not sure if that has a bearing.
Anyway thanks for all your help and advice. I’ll keep you updated.
Hopefully it isn’t the remap.
Richard

 

[jockaneezer]

Isn't there a Ducato fault to do with the injector wiring harness being a tad too short which can cause a misfire and limp mode ?

 

[RGCH999]

Yes possibly, but I didn’t even get limp mode. Starts but cuts out after idling for thirty seconds or so. Hopefully the leak test will resolve.

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[Blue Knight]

Isn't there a Ducato fault to do with the injector wiring harness being a tad too short which can cause a misfire and limp mode ?

I was not aware of that problem but in that example I would say that the harness fault is more to do with the electrical and signal efficiency of the circuit back to the ECU.

Richard's symptoms so far seem to point towards pressure and fuel flow.

It's a good point for consideration though.

 

[RGCH999]

Yes I’m pretty sure it’s fuel somewhere. I even seem to remember after “engine check” seeing the warning “insufficient”. Didn’t catch any more than that though.

 

[Blue Knight]

Andrew
Yes the worry is others may fail, but it’s a gamble. They could last ages if I’m lucky, and time and cost are against me at the moment. The garage is very busy and won’t want the extra work, plus I need it back for next week. I just have to hope that all goes to plan.
The injectors are covered and I believe the scuttle leak like the one that I had on my 2008 van has been sorted. Personally I think lack of use may have been the cause. In the twelve months prior to me getting the vehicle in March, only 200 miles use can’t have been good for it.
Also whether it’s coincidence, but about 200 miles ago I filled up with premium grade diesel for the first time. Not sure if that has a bearing.
Anyway thanks for all your help and advice. I’ll keep you updated.
Hopefully it isn’t the remap.
Richard

Unless the premium fuel that you used was the last few litres in the storage tank (containing all the gunge) then I doubt the fuel would make a difference; if anything you would feel an ever-so-slight improvement (or at least that's what you would be telling yourself after parting with so much extra dosh to fill up, lol).

You will always have a load of erosion/oxidisation in your engine bay because it's still a cold and wet environment under that bonnet for very long periods and, Fiat, as usual, would only use the cheaper materials and processes that allow a 'delivery truck' to safely see it through its 4-6 year lifespan.

Remaps are very useful if done by the right people and the Quantum guys seem to be good at what they do.

The thing about a proper remap is that it only relies on the signals which the engine produces so if you've got a dodgy signal from some malfunctioning component then you're buggered regardless.

If you've not noticed any black smoke during the current life of the remap then the Air-Fuel-Ratios have been more or less with tolerance so I wouldn't think the remap is a problem.

I would stick with the fuel pressure issue for now and see how it unfolds.

All the best,

Andrew

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[Guigsy]

I thought a lot of remaps worked by pushing the fuel rail to higher pressures?

 

[Blue Knight]

I thought a lot of remaps worked by pushing the fuel rail to higher pressures?

Yep, 100%.

.....and this could indeed be the problem, i.e. the fuel pressure has been increased to a level which has overrun a perished seal, injector o-ring or fuel line etc.

The very basic maps just increase pressure and overfuel the system, without much or any adjustment to the AFR.

The better ones do everything but, as you say, it still means an increase of pressure on the components to make it work.

 

[RGCH999]

Andrew
As an update the fitter has contacted me this afternoon to say that tests have revealed no 3 injector is faulty, and he is going to replace it. He did mention that sometimes they are difficult to get out so fingers crossed. I must admit I thought that even though the injector is faulty, that the engine would run albeit on three cylinders, rather than just not run at all, other than on tickover, but maybe that’s purely the engine management shutting it down due to a problem. Gone are the days when you could make it home on 2/3 cylinders if you had a problem. Still undecided whether to get the original map reinstalled.
Richard

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[Blue Knight]

Hi Richard, sorry for missing your reply - I'm not sure what happened there with my notifications.

Your data sounds very encouraging and I have my fingers crossed that the removal of the injector will go smoothly.

If the leak is as bad as what he infers then it's clear that the diesel is seeping inwards but either way the garage seems to have determined the fault.

The ECU is registering an imbalance between the two supply pressures hence the shutdown of the engine on occasions.

Looks good to me so far. Also, if the injectors have been flow/leak tested and the 4th has been replaced then it looks good for you to continue with the use of your Quantum map and the increased tolerances which come from having such a map.

......and even better; you'll get to go away on your holiday next week.


All the best,

Andrew

 

[RGCH999]

Andrew
Have just been out to speak to the Quantum dealer that did the mapping, and am feeling confident from what he explained that the map shouldn’t have caused a problem. He seemed to really know his stuff and was able to rattle off the increases and the way in which their mapping affected the different parts. Was of the opinion that the increase in fuel pressure was marginal, and was well below tolerances.
Quite happy to put the original map back on free, but was 99.9% sure it wasn’t responsible. He seemed to feel that algae grows in diesel and based on the history, 15000 miles and five years old, it was either the fact it had been left idle for twelve months or a rogue injector.
Advised me to get the filter changed as well, and also said ideally I should change all the injectors. (£1200 extra)
I’m going to gamble on the one for now, put in some additive, get the filter changed, and cross fingers and toes.
Richard

 

[Blue Knight]

Hi Richard,

Good news all round.

If you can recall his figures I would be interested to know what he quoted you for the percentage increase in fuel delivery over standard.

The algae which he refers to is called 'diesel bug' but if your van has always been run on fresh fuel then it would take a while before that sets in - so I would discount that entirely. Narrowboats suffer from diesel big from time to time but that's because most canalside fuel stations do not have a high turnover of fuel delivery and so the diesel just sits in the tank for a very long time, especially in the winter.

Also, I get what the technician is saying about replacing the injectors but why would any financially savvy person do so. You're now at the bottom of this problem so if it happens again then you know what to do.

The filter change and the application of the additive will be a good move and in all honesty that's what you need to do.

Other than the above points It sounds as if you're home and dry. In the meantime I would certainly take the opportunity to douse all of the electrical terminals in WD40, or similiar, as that will help limit any corrosion on the terminals. Give the injector housings a squirt too.

Good news indeed.

......and Happy Holidays

Andrew

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[RGCH999]

Oh well good news and bad news.
Firstly the bad. Picked it up this afternoon and two miles up the road the problem reappeared whilst under load uphill. Managed to get back to the garage. Strong smell of diesel. Engine died twice on the way back, and the only way I could get it to start was by putting it in gear and trying with the clutch out. I suppose the good news is that it’s probably not an injector fault but goodness knows where he’ll go now. I dread to think of the bill. He’s saying now maybe the filter and is adamant that the one injector was faulty anyway.
Hes going to scan again and come back to me. Still feels like fuel problem not electrical but who knows.
Im afraid I can’t recall the figures the quantum guy gave me. I was blinded a bit by the science.
Holidays looking off again.

 

[RGCH999]

Further update. He’s scanned again and codes coming up are 89/78 He’s checked the fuel filter and that’s ok. Also fully checked again for leaks and that’s ok.
Hes ordered in a new regulator which he intends to fit first, and then try, and also some filter that fits inside the tank? that also can cause the problem if the first doesn’t work. Oh dear. At least he’s trying to get it fixed for my holiday, although I probably can’t afford a holiday after all this. Saying that they’ll be cheaper than three new injectors.

 

[Blue Knight]

Hi Richard,

The Fault code (P0089) Fuel Pressure (Regulator at High Pressure Pump Inlet) obviously refers to the pressure performance of the FPR.

If the garage has ordered a new FPR then that in theory should rectify the issue.

However, you could also have a fault with a malfunctioning Throttle Bottle Control Module or even a sooted-up EGR.

If your van was used for short runs by the previous owner then these component bits could well be caked-up sufficiently to cause a block and will therefore throw up an error code.

The problem with error codes is that the error code may just be the effect of something else going wrong in the system.

I've been in favour of an FPR inspection from the outset of this problem so I think the garage may well be onto something.

Fingers crossed for you mate.

All the best,

Andrew

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[RGCH999]

Andrew
Heres hoping. My thoughts are from what I can understand is that f it isn’t the regulator then his next checks should be the rail pressure sensor and the pressure control valve sensor. Would you agree. He’s on about changing the filter in the fuel tank which will mean tank out. I’m thinking that before then maybe I should consider getting it towed to a Fiat Proffessional dealer. Are they likely to be any better?
Are there any easy checks to eliminate the EGR and throttle control module.
Thankyou for being such a helpful sounding board.
Regards
Richard

 

[Blue Knight]

Hi Richard,

Just for clarity the pressure control sensor will be the terminal which leads to the FPR itself while the rail Fuel pressure sensor is just the terminal which fits into the rail.

In both cases I would hope your technician has at least disconnected and physically checked them (including the integrity of the wires) to ensure that there's no internal corrosion etc. It's an easy job.

If it was me then I would disconnect each one at a time and start the engine in the hope of retrieving any relevant fault codes/data that get thrown up. This type of Modus Oerandi doesn't fix things but what such simple analysis does it to establish if the sensor is linking back to the ECU.

The EGR is a simple thing to remove from the gas recirculation system and once removed the techy can very quickly establish if it looks caked-up with soot. He should also be able to establish a basic state of the diaphram and see if that too is clogged/damaged or whether its movement is being inhibited in some way, within reason.

Besides engine access issued, the TBCV and TB are in theory easy to remove and inspect. I can remove mine on most of my engines within very short order.

Again, the techy should be checking the various signals by disconnecting the signal inputs for error codes.

The only problem in fiddling with so many signal inputs is that sometimes an ECU can require a 'flash reset' and if the techy was to use a standard Fiat reset map then your Quantum map would be lost, hence the term flash reset.

One thing I did mention in a previous post was 'does your garage understand diesel vehicles' and I've got a feeling that your techy is making a meal of it. I'm not inferring that he's taking the pi$$ but I just think that a good diesel van-speific garage is worth it's weight in gold. You can also get some good support from an independent Land Rover garage as their range of engines are on par with the likes of the 2.3 Ducato lump.

One other point but do you know what changes are made by Quantum to the ECU. I suspect it'll only be air and fuel tolerances but any clarification would be helpful.

Finally form me (my apologies for so much drivel) but there have been a few cases where the ECU itself has been changed-out for being wonky but that's a rarity.

Other than that sir we are really in the hands of the guy doing the spannering.

Any points, drop me a line (always a pleasure).

Chat soon,

Andrew

 

[RGCH999]

Andrew
Thanks for all that useful information. Brilliant. I am beginning to think the technician is now just starting to throw parts at the van rather than methodically investigate. All at my expense and exactly what I feared. However I am to an extent stuck with it as the van is not drivable. There is a Fiat Professional dealer about 7 miles away and I am planning to check whether they have facilities to breakdown me in. Whether they would be an improvement I don’t know.
Armed with your info I also plan to tackle the techie if I can think of doing it in a way that wont offend him otherwise I could be well and truly in the lurch.
I’m also beginning to not care if the remap is lost, but thanks for the warning.
My understanding was the remap affected the volumes and length of air and fuel, and very little to the pressure. It also affected the turbo, but not sure in what way.
Again I’m indebted.

Richard

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