is driving your RV /large motorhome illegal (1 Viewer)

[Wildman]

Is this a new threat?
I have just read a disturbing article in the British Horse Society magazine regarding the implementation of regulation EC 561/2006
The regulations restrict driving hours for drivers of larger vehicles including horse boxes (are motorhomes included?)
The strict implementation of the rules by VOSA means that no one who works 45 hours per week can use a horse box recreational at the weekend. Does it affect us??

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It would appear from first glance not however those of us who move animals, tow horse trailers etc had better take notice.

 

[olley]

Hi Roger not at the moment, but according to Dick southern Ireland have just introduced tacko's on RV's over 12tonnes. So it could be coming.

Olley

 

[Wildman]

I see all sorts of problems arising as this act covers carriage of goods, or people, so what about traders who transport the stock in the RV or separate trailer, then I think they may fall foul of the new law. It is a minefield and to tell the truth new laws, regulations, etc make life almost unbearable for those of us who lead different lives.

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[vwalan]

the ec.561/2006does cover rv of over 7.5ton. if you get chance to see a vosa ,,rules on drivers hours and tachographs booklet(revised 2007),,page 10. discusses excemptions it quite plainly says vehicles or combinations with a maximum permissable mass not exceeding 7.5tonnes used for the non commercial carriage of goods..
i had a discusion with a vosa traffic examiner and he agreed that if you drive a vehicle over 7.5 tonnes it should becontroled by drivers hours. any way even before this if you used a vehicle or combination over 3.5tonnes for carriage of goods for commercial use (hire or reward)you should have had tacho n operaters licence. weekend traders have been braking rules for ages . it also states it maybe necessary to refer to case law for definative interpretations .
the above booklet can be obtained free from vosa.
the rules came into effect on 11 april 2007.

 

[vwalan]

as i see it there is no excemption for those that live a different life.
there is no mine field just plain simple rules laid out ever so easy to understand. . if everybody tel.. there local vosa office and got the booklet you would soon see how clear the rules are.

 

[Wildman]

I was actually talking generally not just motorhomes, plan to instigate a levy on horses of £10.50, also on livestock, too much to find all these little extras, too many rules and regs for us smallholders etc to keep up with. I will be glad to step into my box with two fingers held high.
Life in general is becoming too regulated and the nanny state is a frightening place to live.

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[vwalan]

there is excemption for vehicles used private in domestic rules .but they are for not in connection with a job or in any wayto earn a living. you can get the vosa revised 2009 on google free. the rules apply even if you are one man band or a big organization. thats the trouble, glad i pulled out of it myself.being in an alternative life style doesnt give an alternative rule structure. we cant drop out of the norm . cheers alan.

 

[G4GMO]

Is this a new threat?
I have just read a disturbing article in the British Horse Society magazine regarding the implementation of regulation EC 561/2006
The regulations restrict driving hours for drivers of larger vehicles including horse boxes (are motorhomes included?)
The strict implementation of the rules by VOSA means that no one who works 45 hours per week can use a horse box recreational at the weekend. Does it affect us??

Link Removed

It would appear from first glance not however those of us who move animals, tow horse trailers etc had better take notice.

Work

I haven't worked since June 2008 hahahahahahahaha.
Get a job I hear you say, you're 'aving a larf, chance 'd be a fine thing.... have you seen the latest unemployment figures? I'll be ok then with my 4.6 tonne Hymer if it's big enough that is

I'm the only animal in my motorhome anyway LOL

 

[Terry]

No problem Roger,We will all be OK if we adapt the French version of this rule :thumb: IGNORE it
terry

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[Forestboy]

No problem Roger,We will all be OK if we adapt the French version of this rule :thumb: IGNORE it
terry

Spot on Terry totally agree:thumb: that's what rules are for.
These rules are made up by a bunch of idiots anyway so why would you take any notice.

 

[olley]

Hi even if they brought in Tacho's it wouldn't be to much of a hardship, 9 hours a day driving, is enough for me.

Olley

 

[wizzer59]

Hi even if they brought in Tacho's it wouldn't be to much of a hardship, 9 hours a day driving, is enough for me.

Olley

exactly and then a nice bit of wildcamping, bliss!!:thumb:

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[Wildman]

exactly and then a nice bit of wildcamping, bliss!!:thumb:

now theres a thought legalised wildcamping, stamped and approved, bring it on, hee hee

 

[Losos]

No problem Roger,We will all be OK if we adapt the French version of this rule :thumb: IGNORE it
terry

Terry has a good point, Brussels has brought in loads of legislation but in the (Now how shall I phrase this?) let's say less than 'honourable' parts of Europe it's no worries.

Here in Eastern Europe people just ignore it, the local environment agencies are staffed by a few dedicated people but they don't have a clue as to how many illegal septic tanks there are in the country and they will never know. Likewise they wouldn't know how to implement some EU law on driving RV's since even the commercial lorries seem to get around the tachograph laws with ease.

 

[oldun]

These rules are made up by a bunch of idiots anyway so why would you take any notice.

I suppose that being the law of the land has no significance whatsoever.

it seems that they are made by a bunch of idiots and ignore by a bunch of even bigger idiots.

Why are there so many people who believe that they are immune from the law - speeding, parking, drinking, texting while driving, littering, road rage - you name it.

It's a sad state of affairs when most of the population see to be so anti anything that anyone does to curb their antisocial way of life. Why do people believe they and only they have any say in what goes on?

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[Forestboy]

I suppose that being the law of the land has no significance whatsoever.

it seems that they are made by a bunch of idiots and ignore by a bunch of even bigger idiots.

Why are there so many people who believe that they are immune from the law - speeding, parking, drinking, texting while driving, littering, road rage - you name it.

It's a sad state of affairs when most of the population see to be so anti anything that anyone does to curb their antisocial way of life. Why do people believe they and only they have any say in what goes on?

Oh Dear shame you failed to notice the smilies I attached, it was a light hearted reply to Terry's post.

To keep the record straight I am a law abiding citizen and couldn't care less whether motorhomes have tachos or not and do not consider myself immune from the law.

However I am sick to death of having one new regulation after another heaped on to me by a bunch of know nothing bureaucrats all in the name of health & safety when in fact it's just another scam to get my hard earned cash. Maybe we should be a bit more like the French and set fire to a few tractors in Downing St. instead of just sitting back and taking the crap that bunch of crooks called our government keep dishing out too us. As for regulations curbing anti social behavior I for one don't believe it works, it makes life difficult for law abiding citizens like us but has no effect on criminals.
All the best:thumb:

 

[Wildman]

like I said on some other thread time for a revolution, before our engines can no longer do so due to exorbitant taxation.

 

[mikamada]

Sometimes it is valuable to read legislation before making assumptions

If you look at Article 2(1) of the Regulation you will see that the law relates only to:

(a) vehicles for the carriage of goods or
(b) vehicles constructed or permanently adapted for the carriage of more than 9 passengers (including driver) and intended for that purpose

Article 13(i) provides additional exclusion for those vehicles "with between 10 and 17 seats used exclusively for the non-commercial carriage of passengers".

so it is unlikely to affect 99.9% of motorhome owners.....

even with a 39ft RV it would be difficult to find a place for 18 passengers .... just how many can you fit in a bed or in the underfloor lockers? and if so you could always claim it was for transporting circus or fun fair equipment (13(j))

Oh, and it became law on the 11th April 2007...

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[Snowbird]

Mornin, They can change the rools,bring out new laws,move the goalposts as much as they like,but whats the option?????.Sell your now "illegal" camper,RV and buy a "legal" one,just becouse some idiot is trying to prove his her jobsworth.Somehow I dont think so.:thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

[Wildman]

what really gets me is moving the goalposts, the one that annoys me the most at the moment is the LEZ and how it affects residents (not me) they have to sell vehicles they have had for years because of a change in the law can't be right. Now I hear mutterings of ESC Electronic stability control must be fitted on all new vehicles from 2011 onwards, but OBLIGITORY from 2014, does that mean all now non electronically controlled vehicles will have to come off the road, where is it all leading.

 

[vwalan]

hi, even campers carry goods .tha why you need hgv to drive large campers .the goods you carry are yours. the question is are they for sale or used in work. drivers hours and tacho,s excemptions only list upto 7.5tonnes used for the non-commercial carriage of goods. everthing not fixed in a camper could be classed as goods. again no precidents have been set yet. under domestic rules private is private .if you drive in eu, not uk, then our domestic rules dont count. it does seem that after taslking with vosa they wouldprobably not count an rv as carrying goods depends on what its carrying.a few boxes that look like market stuff could bring in lots of complications. cpc ,maintenence, operators licence. lets not go there. cheers alan.

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[mikamada]

hi, even campers carry goods .tha why you need hgv to drive large campers .the goods you carry are yours. the question is are they for sale or used in work. drivers hours and tacho,s excemptions only list upto 7.5tonnes used for the non-commercial carriage of goods. everthing not fixed in a camper could be classed as goods. again no precidents have been set yet. under domestic rules private is private .if you drive in eu, not uk, then our domestic rules dont count. it does seem that after taslking with vosa they wouldprobably not count an rv as carrying goods depends on what its carrying.a few boxes that look like market stuff could bring in lots of complications. cpc ,maintenence, operators licence. lets not go there. cheers alan.

vwalan
You have raised two key points of misinformation.

1. If you drive in the UK then domestic rules apply. EU Regulations and EU Decisions are law within any and all member states of the EU without an individual member state having to pass specific legislation. EU Directives allow a member state to implement the requirements of a Directive in their own laws. With Directives the member states laws must be compatible with the EU Directive and must be implemented in the time scale specified in the directive. In cases of incompatibility of member state law and EU law (or directives past the implementation date) then EU law takes precedent. There is considerable case law of precedent value to support this view.

2. Regarding Goods. There is case law of precedent value regarding a motorhome which considered the carriage of goods in that vehicle. The decision was that where the vehicle was designed for the purpose of a motorhome then, regardless of the fact that it was mainly used for the carriage of goods, it should be considered, under the law, as a vehicle used for the purpose of carrying passengers as a motorhome. To summarise the principle applied in the precedent case was that "if it looks like a motorhome, was designed as a motorhome and did not have a registered change to being a motorhome then it was to be considered as a motorhome and not a van, a truck or a bus...."

You consideration of alternate twists of interpretation are of interest. However, in the main, legislation has been drafted specifically to avoid such attempts at distortion and where doubt exists the courts will take a view on the literal interpretation, the intent of the legislature and always attempt to avoid coming to an interpretation which either make the purposes of the law unenforceable or makes the law look more of an ass than usual.

Look forward to your next twist, as I am sure it will come quickly, but remember the law, like the banks, will get you in the end

 

[olley]

To summarise the principle applied in the precedent case was that "if it looks like a motorhome, was designed as a motorhome and did not have a registered change to being a motorhome then it was to be considered as a motorhome and not a van, a truck or a bus...."

Then how come mine is registered as a PHGV and you need a "C" to drive it? oh:

Olley

 

[mikamada]

Then how come mine is registered as a PHGV and you need a "C" to drive it? oh:

Olley

Yeah bizarre is it not. There are several different sets of legislation. For the moment.....

There is the vehicle operatives safety legislation set which is the Regulation this thread is about.

There is the vehicle compliance standards which would make an RV or Motorhome a Class M1 Special. This is the category the RVDA has been argueing about.

There is the entitlement to drive which is your C entitlement

There is the vechicle excise duty legislation (UK specific)

There are of course others regarding training and health.......

and not to forget Inland Revenue or whatever it is called now they have their own set....:Sad:

The PHGV relates to vehicle excise duty which is a tax and bears no relationship to the vehicle compliance standard (which should allow your vehicle as a Class "M1 Special") whilst your C licence relates to your entitlement to drive.

logical is it not Oh, and in theory they should be read individually......

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[vwalan]

hi. i,m only using the words in the rules on drivers hours and tacho booklet. that quite clearly states the gb rules apply only in gb.but you must observe the national rules of the countries in which you travel .the embassies of these countries will be able to assist in establishing the rules that might apply. page 26. i believe non commercial exceeding 7.5 tonnes comes under eu rules under 7.5 topnnes comes under domestic rules.
i do sometimes have been known to put a twist in my interpretation as a question . what i dont want to do is incriminate someone else i try to give an honest answer that should stand in a court. under 7,5 are excempt eu rules page 10.if under are excempt then over must be eu apply.

as for the carrying of goods i would like to know of a precident that shows if you use a m,home to carry goods it isnt classed as a goods carrying vehicle. i used to have a bus coverted to carry a car or spare parts several years ago .i got into problems in regard mot,taxing and driver licencing. i then needed cpc, operators licence ,and took my hgv as before i could drive the bus on a car licence.
look forward to a reply i like the way you write your questions and answers .i wonder what your occupation is?cheers alan.

 

[vwalan]

hi ps. category M1 vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver. it does seem alot of rv,s are not in this category. M2 not included .
M3 vehicles used for the carriage of passengers ,comprising more than eight seatsin addition to the driver,and having a maximum mass exceeding five tonnes.
its all very complicated as all goods vehicles are normally category N. but we need a licence to drive cat N to drive some category M vehicles .
maybe we should ask for it all to be rewritten in a proper form. make our lives easier.
cheers alan,

 

[mikamada]

hi ps. category M1 vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver. it does seem alot of rv,s are not in this category. M2 not included .
M3 vehicles used for the carriage of passengers ,comprising more than eight seatsin addition to the driver,and having a maximum mass exceeding five tonnes.
its all very complicated as all goods vehicles are normally category N. but we need a licence to drive cat N to drive some category M vehicles .
maybe we should ask for it all to be rewritten in a proper form. make our lives easier.
cheers alan,

Yes it would be nice if it was all easier. It is not helped by the fact that the Appendix which provides the definitions of the vehicles in categories M1,M2 & M3 (which are also International Standards) are not available from Euro-lex. You are correct that the Special Purpose M1 category requires 8 or less passenger seats. It should be noted that a passenger seat is one which has seat belt restraints according to other EU directives. So if you really want to find out how many seats you have then you have to drill down into other legislation. Whilst it may be possible, it is unlikely that there are many motorhomes with more than 9 (incl. driver) restraint compliant seats.

Not suprised your Bus/Car Transporter/Truck caused you problems. It does not actually sound like a motorhome and, as a special case, would cause fun at the DVLA.

Your quote regarding the applicability of rules within GB or other countries is, I would argue, incorrect. EU regulations take precedent over local laws and the Regulation is explicit on the vehicles which do not require operator hours management. It may be that other EU countries laws are not compliant with the Regulation however that is the great advantage of the EU framework regulations as those laws can be challenged (though it may take a timeoh.

The Regulation is precisely targetted at providing clarrification to avoid abuse of interpretation by Member States.

Rather than see this Regulation as negative or constraining it is possible to see it as helping the position of large motorhomes.

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[vwalan]

hi .if 7.5 tonne vehicles used for non commercial use are excempt eu rules then they must become controlled by domestic rules. it would be even better if vosa/dvla information could be classed as definative, but they always say they are for guidance and not to be used as a complete or authoritive statement of law. wouldnt it be nice if they could actually tell us the law that they enforce then we would have something to aim for.
glad i drive what i do .try to keep well in the best side of the rules. have fun .
best is always verify all questions yourselves with vosa/dvla and only drive what you are happy with regards the rules. its your licence. have enough trouble looking after my own. ha ha.

 

[Landy lover]

it would be even better if vosa/dvla information could be classed as definative, but they always say they are for guidance and not to be used as a complete or authoritive statement of law. wouldnt it be nice if they could actually tell us the law that they enforce then we would have something to aim for.

Totally agree - sadly with the powers that VOSA now have it is down to the individual VOSA persons opinion at the roadside that dictates whether or not you have a fine a prohibition etc. We run commercial lorrys so need to comply with Tacho / inspections / cpc etc. etc . I very much appears that VOSA's purpose in life these days is not to get compliance with readily understandable rules - regulations and laws but to hide behind ifs buts and maybe's that allow them to look at everything from different angles and it would appear to me that every VOSA examiner interprets them differently. I see from your posts that you often chat with VOSA people - is it always the same one as I
likewise take every opportunities to chat and it is very obvious that you pose the same questions to different examiners they all have different opinions - as your livelyhood may depend on it how can you trust any of them.

 

[vwalan]

hi landy , bet we speak to the same chaps are the ones you speak to based in exeter . i sent the one i speak to photo,s etc of my truck . there as been a few changes in recent years . there was a pat ,john and now charly. al;l very helpfull . if your heading into cornwall give a shout be nice to chew the fat. cheers alan.

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