Insurance companies - a law unto themselves (1 Viewer)

[johnnyjp5]

As you declared that you were making changes, if the insurer didnt ask what, thats their problem. They can refuse to increase the cover, and can exclude the new items and levels as not part of the original contract. Run with the existing cover. Tell them you do not want them to cancel the cover. (the message says 'unless we hear from you... so implies theres a route). Agree those exclusions for the time being and insure elsewhere from renewal.

 

[prentii]

Not sure about vehicles but if you under insure a house by say 20% the insurance company will reduce the pay out by 20% so you end up with less than you have insured for.

So a £500k house insured for £400k will get a total loss pay out of only £320k.

 

[Delboyarapaho]

Thanks for the input, folks. These vehicles are £102K new, ours is less than two years old, now with £45K of improvements, so us wanting to insure it (and happy to pay increased premium to do so) of £115K doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially with a virtual life-time of no claims. To answer questions above - our cover isn't due to expire until December, but now they are saying they will cancel it within 7 days.............because we've improved the vehicle???? Further, I contacted them a few months ago explaining that we were materially improving the vehicle and would want to increase the insurance and they said, "Fine, contact us with all the specifics when you are done'' which we did. And now we're not only not going to be covered, but also are getting the elbow with all the future implications of that...................not happy. No wonder Warren Buffet says always to invest in insurance companies.............

From what you are saying here you sensibly consulted them prior to making the mods and they said fine get back to us. They should have a record of that conversation and it might be worth (if you haven't already done so) youreminding them that they accepted you previous notification. they should not therefore be within their rights to cancel your contract. they would (i think) be within their rights not to agree to increase the value.
In your position I would try to get the current cover to run to the end and then re-new with someone else at the value you want to insure for. As others have said that value is only a guide anyway and in the case of total loss any all of us get is what the vehicle is actually worth, which is rarely related to the value on the documentation
Good luck

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[Dorset Diver]

Thanks for the input, folks. These vehicles are £102K new, ours is less than two years old, now with £45K of improvements, so us wanting to insure it (and happy to pay increased premium to do so) of £115K doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially with a virtual life-time of no claims. To answer questions above - our cover isn't due to expire until December, but now they are saying they will cancel it within 7 days.............because we've improved the vehicle???? Further, I contacted them a few months ago explaining that we were materially improving the vehicle and would want to increase the insurance and they said, "Fine, contact us with all the specifics when you are done'' which we did. And now we're not only not going to be covered, but also are getting the elbow with all the future implications of that...................not happy. No wonder Warren Buffet says always to invest in insurance companies.............

CAMC (Divet) have a £100k maximum value limit. Try NFU Mutual.

 

[Stonemags76]

Whatever you do, make sure it is you that cancels the insurance, as it will count against you if they do it. If you contact them, you could persuade them to allow you to do this without penalty perhaps, as they have created the difficulties as far as I can see! The letter of the contract is on their side, however, so I would go down the ”poor me” route & see if they will let you cancel, & then go elsewhere! I had trouble with Saga wanting to cancel, & although I was spitting feathers, I changed tack & pleaded ignorance so I could cancel. Still gets my goat after several years, but sometimes you need to play their game!,

 

[Coolcats]

I wonder if anyone has encountered a similar problem to ours with High & Mighty insurance companies? They really are a law unto themselves. Any advice on our problem would be much appreciated.

Our issue is that, after radically improving our motorhome with lots of industry-standard improvements (solar panels, lithium batteries, levelling kit, air suspension, etc), we applied to increase the ''sum insured'' on our motorhome, but were knocked back. All of the jobs were professionally installed and we have full invoices and receipts from reputable dealers, but no. We're insured through the club, through Devitt Insurance. Indeed, not only were we knocked back, but they say they are going to cancel our insurance!!! The killer line after telling us they would not allow us to increase the sum insured was,

''......if we do not hear from you within the next 7 days we will proceed with cancellation of this insurance due to unacceptable mid-term adjustment''

Unacceptable??? We were trying not only to protect our investment, but also to give them more business. What is unacceptable about that?

We've spent £45K on improving it, so it seemed only sensible to re-evaluate and pay more premium to be covered properly in case of loss. We're not rich or anything, but this is the pinnacle now of our motorhoming lives as we reach retirement age. We started off in an old Bedford CF in 1980 and have worked our way up through combi's and what-not to our current Kontiki 649. We think it will be our last motorhome (forty years in) so we pushed the boat out on this one to get it as good as we could while we still have earning power.

Has anybody had a similar experience? Is there an insurance ombudsperson we can contact? How can it be legal for them to withdraw our insurance because we've asked to pay to increase the sum insured? We were offering them MORE business. It seems absurd. The world's gone bonkers.

All opinions welcome! Mick & Lisa.

Try the financial services association I think you will find they are the regulators. You may need to find another insurance broker, insurance companies can refuse based on risk. Adrian Flux May be an option as a broker they do find insurance for van-MoHo conversions agreed valuations etc. You normally have to provide receipts and photos.

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[gus-lopez]

Not sure about vehicles but if you under insure a house by say 20% the insurance company will reduce the pay out by 20% so you end up with less than you have insured for.

So a £500k house insured for £400k will get a total loss pay out of only £320k.

When I was claiming here in spain on a government insurance add on to everyone's policies for "extraordinary events" ,& the loss adjuster they sent was a solicitor from Catalunia , she couldn't comprehend that when I asked the question?
It took 2 attempts & various clarifications before she understood fully & then she was open mouthed that any company would even consider doing it.
As she said if you have under insured "it is your fault & an expense you have to bear why should the company be allowed to defraud you of even more money??"
& no it isn't done here.

If you insure for 400k they pay you out 400k in a total loss straight in the bank.For contents it is the same. With flooding 1,5m water through the house is a total loss , paid in full by bank transfer & none of this "we''ll send a man with mop & bucket & a humidifier ,etc" They pay out ,that's it.

 

[rick brind]

How on earth have you increased the value of your van by £45k no wonder the insurance company has said NO.

 

[chaser]

How on earth have you increased the value of your van by £45k no wonder the insurance company has said NO.

I and others have asked this, but we still don't know.

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[olley]

Full air suspension £6000
Hydraulic Levelling £6000
Satellite £3000
Solar £3000
What else?

 

[deleted-member02]

Full air suspension £6000
Hydraulic Levelling £6000
Satellite £3000
Solar £3000
What else?

Alarm £2000
In car entertainment/sat nav £10,000 +
Air con £3000
Lithium batteries
Upgraded charging regime
Top spec invertor
Efoy or other generator
Electric awning
SOG (or compost toilet )

must be getting close at this point???

 

[Blue Knight]

Also (given your own hobby, you'll get this) I have a Mark II Jag which I've modified with modern Jaguar running gear (shown elsewhere on this site) so that it still looks like a '66 Mark II but drives like a modern Jag so that I can use it as my every-day car and not just a Sunday Special, and I had no problem increasing the insurance on that - so what's the difference? Same vehicle, materially improved. My original statement remains valid - ''Insurance companies - a law unto themselves''.

I thank you for your wishes for a good outcome, but I'm not hopeful.

The problem I have Mick with insurance companies is that the mainstream providers won't insure my car in its standard guise; a few will insure it in a highly modified state and only two will insure it as an extreme car........so I'm wondering if this is the case with your van; i.e. the high number of mods has pushed your insurance company into the "I don't want to know band"?

Once you've interrogated your provider I would be interested if it's the number of modifications on your van that has scared them away.

If you've got 7-days grace to chat with them then it sounds as if they'll let you come to some agreement with them.

Again, good luck,

Andrew

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[MC 55 FUN]

I'd suggest that adding £45k's worth of extras / accessories / improvements / additions doesn't necessarily make the vehicle in question worth £45k more that it would otherwise be.

The insurance company may take the view that the £45k's worth of additions make the vehicle far more desirable to thieves though.

 

[rick brind]

Still can't think of 45k worth of accessories even if a rip off garage charged £500 an hour to fit them.

 

[Pausim]

I am still thinking that the added value is not the reason for the cancellation. I suspect that the reason lies in one or more of the modifications being unacceptable to the underwriter.

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[MC 55 FUN]

Still can't think of 45k worth of accessories even if a rip off garage charged £500 an hour to fit them.

It's been gold plated

 

[Mick Kennedy]

The problem I have Mick with insurance companies is that the mainstream providers won't insure my car in its standard guise; a few will insure it in a highly modified state and only two will insure it as an extreme car........so I'm wondering if this is the case with your van; i.e. the high number of mods has pushed your insurance company into the "I don't want to know band"?

Once you've interrogated your provider I would be interested if it's the number of modifications on your van that has scared them away.

If you've got 7-days grace to chat with them then it sounds as if they'll let you come to some agreement with them.

Again, good luck,

Andrew

I will get back to you, Andy, once it’s resolved. Mick.

 

[Squeak]

I wonder if anyone has encountered a similar problem to ours with High & Mighty insurance companies? They really are a law unto themselves. Any advice on our problem would be much appreciated.

Our issue is that, after radically improving our motorhome with lots of industry-standard improvements (solar panels, lithium batteries, levelling kit, air suspension, etc), we applied to increase the ''sum insured'' on our motorhome, but were knocked back. All of the jobs were professionally installed and we have full invoices and receipts from reputable dealers, but no. We're insured through the club, through Devitt Insurance. Indeed, not only were we knocked back, but they say they are going to cancel our insurance!!! The killer line after telling us they would not allow us to increase the sum insured was,

''......if we do not hear from you within the next 7 days we will proceed with cancellation of this insurance due to unacceptable mid-term adjustment''

Unacceptable??? We were trying not only to protect our investment, but also to give them more business. What is unacceptable about that?

We've spent £45K on improving it, so it seemed only sensible to re-evaluate and pay more premium to be covered properly in case of loss. We're not rich or anything, but this is the pinnacle now of our motorhoming lives as we reach retirement age. We started off in an old Bedford CF in 1980 and have worked our way up through combi's and what-not to our current Kontiki 649. We think it will be our last motorhome (forty years in) so we pushed the boat out on this one to get it as good as we could while we still have earning power.

Has anybody had a similar experience? Is there an insurance ombudsperson we can contact? How can it be legal for them to withdraw our insurance because we've asked to pay to increase the sum insured? We were offering them MORE business. It seems absurd. The world's gone bonkers.

All opinions welcome! Mick & Lisa.

We get similar problems with the motorbikes. If we put any add on's on i.e heated grips, bigger screen then the insurance becomes invalid. I think it's across the board, unfortunately.

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[Abacist]

Yes you got it, insurance companies have thresholds, 40-50k for trackers, 100k is another threshold, his existing policy would not cover new van over 100k but he is willing to loose the small difference in a claim. Back to this thread unless under 1 year old and being new for old, they will only cover market value for the vehicle.

best to check with insurance max value they will cover then make decision to continue or cancel.

Insurance claims are subject to "Averaging" In practice this means that if you insure an asset costing £150k for £100k and expect to receive £100k in the event of a total loss you will be sorely disappointed! You have insured the van for 2/3rds of is value so they will only pay 2/3rds of your claim meaning the max you will get will be £66,667! The fact that you paid a premium based on £100k is irrelevant - read the small print!

 

[DandG5515]

Insurance claims are subject to "Averaging" In practice this means that if you insure an asset costing £150k for £100k and expect to receive £100k in the event of a total loss you will be sorely disappointed! You have insured the van for 2/3rds of is value so they will only pay 2/3rds of your claim meaning the max you will get will be £66,667! The fact that you paid a premium based on £100k is irrelevant - read the small print!

I would not recommend to anyone under insuring such a high value item by 1/3, however if the van was £105k it is realistic to accept a valuation of £100k as simply the depreciation of driving it out of the showroom.

 

[wigster]

Bloody hell paying 102 grand for a swift , not knocking them , but bloody hell .
Only my opinion ,and we are all allowed one no offence meant to anyone .

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[Stanbrook]

The Swift you have chosen is an amazing machine l hope you get the insurance sorted and enjoy good times. Brilliant.

 

[Mick Kennedy]

Thanks folks for your comments and recommendations for other insurers which I followed up. Summary below for those interested in the outcome................

Advance Insurance - these weren't interested because we'd had our motor scooter stolen back in May at Tredegar House in Newport (reported elsewhere on this site). They said that if you'd had something stolen before, then there is a greater chance you'll have something stolen again. This, despite our scooter having had the steering lock engaged, a disc-lock on the front wheel, and an Oxford monster-lock attaching it to our e-bike. So yeah, we're obviously at ''fault'' for that theft (Some of you may recall the earlier tale, part of it captured on CCTV, of SIX young men coming on to the site at night while we slept and picking the whole lot up and carrying it silently off into nearby woods, cutting through TWO fences as they went, where they could get portable angle grinders to work, out of earshot).

Lifesure Insurance - could never get anything other than their answer phone and they didn't return calls.

Adrian Flux - got a real fly-boy who positively raced me through their questionnaire and sort of brushed over the bits that could be contentious in the future so that he could make the policy fly. Quoted me £1000 but at time of writing hasn't responded by e-mail for confirmation that the underwriters would make it ''agreed value.'' The topper was that he said he'd placed the insurance with AXA - the very same company DeVitt (the CAMC brokers) had said wanted to cancel our existing insurance due to the mods we'd made! I won't name the lad here, but he did not inspire confidence.

NFU Mutual - we went with these folks in the end. I asked for Christian Brown (as recommended earlier in this thread - thanks) but he has now moved into Commercial, apparently, so I was referred to a very helpful lady, Michelle. By contrast, she DID inspire confidence and the questions were exhaustive, up to and including the request for a qualified, independent automotive engineer's report on the vehicle to attest that the modifications actually existed and that they had been installed professionally by competent technicians. I supplied this (Celtic Assessors made the assessment and did the report with photos of each item for £280) and my application was accepted by NFU's underwriters with the vehicle value at my desired £115K. (Well, it was £112K, but the TV and genny they covered as internal contents, so our outlay was fully covered). Annual cost with no no-claims = £1360, but hopefully that will reduce each year with no-claims and their loyalty bonus. It includes unlimited European travel. Devitt policy for the original £68K insurance was $585, so it's more than doubled with all our additions, but at least we have peace of mind now and know we are genuinely covered. Well done and thank you to Michelle and NFU.

As a footnote to this - I cancelled the Devitt Insurance the day before they were going to, but in their cancellation confirmation notice they still called the reason for cancellation ''unacceptable mid-term adjustment''. Like I said at the very beginning of this thread - "Insurance Companies, a law unto themselves............''

Many thanks again to those of you who made positive suggestions or encouraging remarks. Good on you, you raised our spirits.

Mick & Lisa.

 

[Pausim]

I asked for Christian Brown (as recommended earlier in this thread - thanks) but he has now moved into Commercial, apparently, so I was referred to a very helpful lady, Michelle.

Glad to hear that an equally helpful person is available. The Brockenhurst NFU office seem to have a positive attitude to motorhome insurance.

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[gus-lopez]

Insurance claims are subject to "Averaging" In practice this means that if you insure an asset costing £150k for £100k and expect to receive £100k in the event of a total loss you will be sorely disappointed! You have insured the van for 2/3rds of is value so they will only pay 2/3rds of your claim meaning the max you will get will be £66,667! The fact that you paid a premium based on £100k is irrelevant - read the small print!

Then why is it basically only in the Uk that it is done?
It's scamming,It certainly isn't done here.
If you over insured say for 300k they woldn't bat an eyelid in taking the premium but they certainly wouldn't say " well we will increase the payout by 30%" would they?

 

[Abacist]

It has always been a feature of UK insurance as far as I am aware as I was taught it when studying to be a chartered accountant back in the 1970's!
Its not relevant what is done elsewhere! If you have a UK policy underwritten in the UK then you are likely to be subject to averaging.