Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

Coolcats

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Another win for battery over Hydrogen where you would suspect hydrogen would be a natural contender.

Probably was not a competition unless you had the privilege to view the supplier requirements and therefore not a 'win' (Battery vs Hydrogen competition)
 

Gromett

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Probably was not a competition unless you had the privilege to view the supplier requirements and therefore not a 'win' (Battery vs Hydrogen competition)
So if a hydrogen bus gets a contract you post it as a win for hydrogen. But if I do the same for batteries it's not a competition :giggler: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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So if a hydrogen bus gets a contract you post it as a win for hydrogen. But if I do the same for batteries it's not a competition :giggler: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
When I posted the original article it was intended to be informative not a electric v hydrogen. I think you seriously need a ‘life’.
 
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Way back in the 'old' days the Stanley Steamer could be ready to go from cold in just about 1 minute - and speed very near 100 mph, - didn't an American car maker reintroduce a steam car in the '60's ?
The ridiculous introduction of steam into this discussion conveniently ignores the reason for the search for alternatives to the ICE (or worse, the ECE).
 

Coolcats

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So if a hydrogen bus gets a contract you post it as a win for hydrogen. But if I do the same for batteries it's not a competition :giggler: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I don't think I have ever said a hydrogen contract has 'won' over a battery sale as if it was a competition between one and another.

Today the 'easy' route for any manufacture is to install batteries in to a vehicle, whilst you have quite rightly pointed out that there is no Hydrogen Gas network and investment will have to be found to implement such a network, that in itself does not mean it will not happen. You mention that burning Hydrogen at high temperatures produces NOx, what you have not done at the same time is also outlined that NOx production can be minimised or even eradicated either by a lower burn temperature or by other techniques, A Ford engine for example used, Hydrogen in a Zetec engine and reduced NOx to 1ppm.

My guess is that you laugh at posts as a form of defence or to try and ridicule, I have no issue with this you may continue to laugh until you see Hydrogen deployments coming on line. :cool: In the not too far past people would and have mocked and laughed at those who said Batteries would be common place in Motor Vehicles.
 
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I don't think I have ever said a hydrogen contract has 'won' over a battery sale as if it was a competition between one and another.

Today the 'easy' route for any manufacture is to install batteries in to a vehicle, whilst you have quite rightly pointed out that there is no Hydrogen Gas network and investment will have to be found to implement such a network, that in itself does not mean it will not happen. You mention that burning Hydrogen at high temperatures produces NOx, what you have not done at the same time is also outlined that NOx production can be minimised or even eradicated either by a lower burn temperature or by other techniques, A Ford engine for example used, Hydrogen in a Zetec engine and reduced NOx to 1ppm.

My guess is that you laugh at posts as a form of defence or to try and ridicule, I have no issue with this you may continue to laugh until you see Hydrogen deployments coming on line. :cool: In the not too far past people would and have mocked and laughed at those who said Batteries would be common place in Motor Vehicles.
Pretty much like those who stated that the combustion engine would never catch on and that it was a fad.
 

Gromett

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You mention that burning Hydrogen at high temperatures produces NOx, what you have not done at the same time is also outlined that NOx production can be minimised or even eradicated either by a lower burn temperature or by other techniques, A Ford engine for example used, Hydrogen in a Zetec engine and reduced NOx to 1ppm.
Erm, I did mention this above.

You don't burn hydrogen at high temperatures. You set the temperature by setting the mix of hydrogen to oxygen. The ideal ratio is called stoichiometric ratio which is what I previously mentioned. The ideal ratio gives you the most efficient burn getting the most heat out each unit of the gas.

I stated that you have to burn hydrogen at lower than hydrogen's stoichiometric ratio to avoid an oxidising flame otherwise you produce loads of NOx. This means you need to burn more more hydrogen to get the same heat output. So I did cover this, though you may have missed it?
Remember Methane has a higher energy density of around 3.2x. So you already have to burn 3.2X as much hydrogen as you would methane to get the same heat, so reducing the ratio would result in even higher hydrogen requirements.

Here is what I said previously. I may not have been clear and presumed you understood this sorry.
It also doesn't mention the fact that you either have to run the hydrogen boiler at a low than the hydrogen stoichiometric ratio to avoid an oxidising flame otherwise you produce loads of NOx. This means the cost of running a hydrogen boiler will be excessive even if hydrogen costs the same as Methane which it doesn't.

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Gromett

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A Ford engine for example used, Hydrogen in a Zetec engine and reduced NOx to 1ppm.
For an internal combustion engine reducing the ration of air to hydrogen is beneficial as it results in less heat generated and better efficiency. For a boiler you want maximum heat per unit of fuel used. Different use cases and different results.

Also for a gas hob you can't control the ratio effectively you are simply releasing gas through a bunch of holes and burning it at it's natural rate which tends to be close to the stoichiometric ratio. In a boiler this could be controlled so you can reduce the ratio and thus the NOx production but at the cost of needed more hydrogen to generate the same heat.
 
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Wow! What I know about this area of technology you could write on the head of a pin and still leave room for the Lords prayer.
Its great to know that there are so many learned people out there.
To go back to my original post :
The Telegraph printed an article on the 31 st March about hydrogen-fuelled transport. In the article it stated : Stellantis, the Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat conglomerate, also says that it is investigating using a similar hybridised fuel cell system in a passenger car, which it will put into production in the near future.
IF, this proves to be successful, then it will be great for motor homers as they might then have a choice between electric and hydrogen when Diesel /Petrol vehicles cease to be manufactured!
Thank heaven for technology.
As a final point : France has 25 Hydrogen filling stations, Germany 90 and the UK 12 so someone is using them?
 

Coolcats

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Wow! What I know about this area of technology you could write on the head of a pin and still leave room for the Lords prayer.
Its great to know that there are so many learned people out there.
To go back to my original post :
The Telegraph printed an article on the 31 st March about hydrogen-fuelled transport. In the article it stated : Stellantis, the Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat conglomerate, also says that it is investigating using a similar hybridised fuel cell system in a passenger car, which it will put into production in the near future.
IF, this proves to be successful, then it will be great for motor homers as they might then have a choice between electric and hydrogen when Diesel /Petrol vehicles cease to be manufactured!
Thank heaven for technology.
As a final point : France has 25 Hydrogen filling stations, Germany 90 and the UK 12 so someone is using them?
Totally agree, it was unthinkable maybe 15 years ago that Battery technology would rise to replace ICE engines, ICE manufacturers have been sweating and continue to sweat their assets whilst they can, it is a wholesale organisational change skills techniques, manufacturing literally throwing away Jobs and Manufacturing tools for new ones VW is said to be spending $91Billion switching from ICE to EV. It is a brave new world of Zero Carbon, new technologies and techniques will emerge and what may seem unthinkable today will be common sense tomorrow.

Gromett often states that Hydrogen Vehicles and appliances will not happen in the UK which suggests he believes and has stated may happen in other countries. Globalisation means we will have this technology, we are not so different that we will not use it, and in someways naive to believe we won't particular when companies such as Bosch are confident in thier product, I have posted before about the Gas Utilities plan to change over to Hydrogen. Investments would have to be made but if Hydrogen was mains delivered you could top up your Hydrogen powered Motorbike such as the Segway Hydrogen powered one or how about Suzuki's Hydrogen Scooter currently being used by Police or how about Suzuki's Hydrogen powered Cross cage Motorbike. Developments are going on all the time Hydrogen has the potential of being part of that Zero Carbon Future no one really knows what development is going on in the background, the public only tends to see what may be emerging yet R&D is often much further down the road.

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This discussion could be summarised by the statement "hydrogen fuel cells might in future make really good battery chargers" 😁. What strikes me is that we have had affordable personal transport for a mere 70 years. We've had (an almost) wholly road-based goods transport system for a much shorter period than that. Social change forced by the need to reduce CO2 emissions is likely to be comparable to that generated by the first two upheavals I mentioned. Transport in all its forms will I think look very different 30 or so years from now.
 

Gromett

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but if Hydrogen was mains delivered you could top up your Hydrogen powered Motorbike such as the Segway Hydrogen powered one or how about Suzuki's Hydrogen Scooter currently being used by Police or how about Suzuki's Hydrogen powered Cross cage Motorbike.
Sorry but this one made me giggle. Hydrogen if it is ever delivered to the home will be in gaseous form at relatively low pressure. The gas network would need to be totally replaced if you wanted to supply homes at the 10,000psi used in fuel cell vehicles.
OR you would need an extremely expensive compressor and chiller to be able to fill your vehicle. Neither option is a realistic one due to the very high up front capital costs.
 

Coolcats

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Sorry but this one made me giggle. Hydrogen if it is ever delivered to the home will be in gaseous form at relatively low pressure. The gas network would need to be totally replaced if you wanted to supply homes at the 10,000psi used in fuel cell vehicles.
OR you would need an extremely expensive compressor and chiller to be able to fill your vehicle. Neither option is a realistic one due to the very high up front capital costs.
The U.K. provided Hydrogen within its gas network for many years so it’s not beyond reason that it could now supply 100% Green Hydrogen

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Gromett

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The U.K. provided Hydrogen within its gas network for many years so it’s not beyond reason that it could now supply 100% Green Hydrogen
There you go again, make a point, when I point out the errors change the subject completely.

You were talking about using hydrogen from the gas network to fill your vehicle at home. That was what my response was to.

I am not going over the gas network issues again. we have already done that,.
 

Coolcats

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Sorry but this one made me giggle. Hydrogen if it is ever delivered to the home will be in gaseous form at relatively low pressure. The gas network would need to be totally replaced if you wanted to supply homes at the 10,000psi used in fuel cell vehicles.
OR you would need an extremely expensive compressor and chiller to be able to fill your vehicle. Neither option is a realistic one due to the very high up front capital costs.
But what you are arguing is what you know about todays technology and costs, I agree that the gas network is relatively low pressure and again highlight that the U.K provided Hydrogen within its gas network so Hydrogen to the home is not unthinkable and the industry has plans to use the network to distribute Hydrogen but you just poor cold water on the idea, when I highlight investment banks are interested in supporting development in Hydrogen you just say they know nothing (which is not actually true).

My comment was tongue in cheek regarding home compression but it is not beyond the realms of being technically possible, you talk about the high cost of compression but this is often the cost of a large Hydrogen station but what about a small compressor and what would the unit cost be if you manufactured say 10 Million of them the cost point I would suggest would be far lower.

Never say Never Gromett who would have thought when we had Cathode Ray Televisions which was default for decades across all manufactures we could have awesome life like OLED pictures with 6,000 ppi LED's. Your position on Technology comes across as if it is fixed and thank goodness industry and Universities let people play and try things out.

Carry on giggling Gromett......
 

Coolcats

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This discussion could be summarised by the statement "hydrogen fuel cells might in future make really good battery chargers" 😁. What strikes me is that we have had affordable personal transport for a mere 70 years. We've had (an almost) wholly road-based goods transport system for a much shorter period than that. Social change forced by the need to reduce CO2 emissions is likely to be comparable to that generated by the first two upheavals I mentioned. Transport in all its forms will I think look very different 30 or so years from now.
I think your spot on (y)

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Gromett

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The Ice Age is taking a long time to come to its end ...

In other news:

One is a global event the other is a regional one. Not too hard to understand :p

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One is a global event the other is a regional one. Not too hard to understand :p

"Regional" is not much of an explanation when events run counter to the official "crisis" IPCC narrative. OTOH at least when glaciers recede and CO2 ppm increases slightly, the treeline should be able to go a bit higher so there should be benefits as well.

Planet Earth has an estimated 3 trillion loss of trees due to human activity. Replanting them would be real progress in terms of overall CO2 balancing. Reforestation is one of the few acceptable objectives of The Great Reset so it isn't all evil.
 
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Think hydrogen may be the new Betamax, at least for cars. It might be better than BEV, but consumers are already sold on electric.

And it is easy to see why. You can refill the car at home, or at a lamppost. We have a 32amp power pod on the wall outside, that we plug the Mitsubishi PHEV in. Best car I have ever owned. I get 25 miles in the summer off a tank of electric, but my journey to work (when I still travelled to work) was nine miles. Put unleaded in maybe three or four times a year?

Batteries and electric motors will get better and range will increase, but hydrogen might work for motorhomes though. Problem is, how many garages will provide petrol, derv, hydrogen, LPG and fast charge plug ins?

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