How to Make "A" Frames better (1 Viewer)

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi again George
Now I am confused????? I never mentioned tractor trailer braking so I am unsure what your comment alludes to?

Sorry that wasnt aimed at you directly, but every time this [topic] comes up some wag asks "if braking must be mechanical or Hydraulic how come air brakes are legal?"

Secondly you have posted several times recently that brakes HAVE to be mechanical

I am left wondering what legislative documents you have read recently, that would now seem to indicate that you think hydraulically operated braking systems are OK, whereas you argued against them previously

This also causes some confusion, I am not actually contradicting myself, the parking brake MUST be mechanical only like the cars handbrake, this doesnt mean that the trailer cannot use the Hydraulic brakes for braking while driving

whilst I broadly agree that A Frames would appear to be illegal for use in the UK under current legislation, ? I think the easiest solution is for the government to change the law and then we could all tow like our American cousins
I'm off to bed now, but I do look forward to reading the reply, good night all :thumb:

The government cannot change this law, even if it wasnt covered by an EEC directive it would be unwise (even if they wanted to and it was a good idea, incidently they dont want to and it would not be a good idea to change the law anyway)

 

[GeorgeTelford]

The danger is that any changes the governmebt made would be to bring us in line with the EU and declare a-frames for transportation illegal.

Bryan

Hi Bryan

we already subscribe to the eec directive and the construction and use regs dating back over 20 years makeit that the A frame as always been ilegal in the UK.....................

 

[Enodreven]

George, can you direct me to the section or amendment that covers the auto reverse braking, as i have been reading through 71/320/EEC and its amendments and i still can't find any references


Oh and if you have some ideas that may work I would have thought you would have given them freely as that is what this thread is about, if you now feel you don't want to contribute positively please feel free to stay out of the rest of the discussions, as negativity is not helpful and certainly not what i joined this web site for ??

Thanks
Brian

Hi all

In no particular order

Keith

Braking must be achieved by Mechanical or Hydraulic these are the only acceptable methods in euroland. I can hear people wondering about air brakes....... but as the great man said thats not important right now.....

Trailer brakes must be operated on over-run and auto-reverse (tractor trailer units are different and definately not applicable to what we are discussing)

Brian

to answer your question list

1] Yes it could be dangerous, the braking regs for trailers are there for a reason.
2] yes, but not a legal one.
3] No
4] No
5] yes it would be acceptable, however it would still be ilegal as a whole
6] No auto reverse brakes, No able to reverse (under control) without manual intervention.

Question

while sitting here, I think I have come up with a totally legal A frame set up, the question now is, who would be willing to buy it off me and for how much?

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

I think you are misreading something

Any braked trailers manufactured after April 1989 must be fitted with a hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320 (ECE13).

What this means is that the braking efficiencies are dealt with in that directive not the actual requirement to have auto-reverse brakes.

I am and will coninue to contribute positively to this thread, if you ever work out how to do it, please feel free to give the idea away, but I think I will pass on giving it away myself.

 

[Enodreven]

George

Do you have a link to the actual paragraphs within 71/320 that state the specific regulation, as i have been reading through this and the amendments and i still haven't found any direct reference to the items that you and others have previously quoted ? i am not saying are not there its just that i would like to read the full directive on this subject to ascertain the methods of implementation to comply.

If you feel that you aren't prepared to help people with what you feel would work, then please tell me how if you read my opening thread you are going to be able to continue to contribute positively to this thread as unless i am missing somethink the main reason for this thread is to get the people on this forum to put their heads together to try and find a way to make "A" frames meet the regulations. and assuming that you feel you may have achive that how can you continue to to contribute positively without disclosing your suggested way forward

Also if someone may at some point actually come up and post the same idea as you purport to have, will you then try to assist positively even though they will have posted it on an open forum thats assuming that it complies?

Hi Brian

I think you are misreading something

Any braked trailers manufactured after April 1989 must be fitted with a hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320 (ECE13).

What this means is that the braking efficiencies are dealt with in that directive not the actual requirement to have auto-reverse brakes.

I am and will coninue to contribute positively to this thread, if you ever work out how to do it, please feel free to give the idea away, but I think I will pass on giving it away myself.

UPDATE


George I have just found the paragraph within one of the ammendments to 71/320 which I have copied below,

Its interesting that it does not specify the types of devices that have to be used so unless there is another paragraph that specifically states the system that has to be employed, i can only assume that some form of electric system could be utilised but would welcome other suggestions or interpretations as it also appears to allow some application of the brakes as long as it dosen't exceed 8% which I think may fit with someones earlier suggsetion of some form of dampering of the over-run device

3.4.The inertia braking device must allow the trailer to be reversed with the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag force exceeding 8 % of the force corresponding to the maximum mass of the trailer. Devices used for this purpose must act automatically and disengage automatically when the trailer moves forward.
.
After item 3.4 the following new item 3.5 shall be added:

3.5.Any special device incorporated for the purposes of item 3.4 shall be such that the parking performance when facing up a gradient shall not be adversely affected.

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

"assuming that you feel you may have achieve that, how can you continue to to contribute positively without disclosing your suggested way forward?"


Its in annex VIII, but all it does is tell you the braking force requirements (another positive contribution)

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[Enodreven]

Thanks George,

I think you have decided to be selective with the your reply regarding positive contributions but thank you never the less, However i don't think you are engageing with the sprit of the thread ?? but good luck to you and i really do hope you can put your thoughts into practice as that will help everyone and if you can get it off the ground hopefully it will make you some money, just remember who started the process for you.

Good luck with your quest

Brian

Hi Brian

"assuming that you feel you may have achieve that, how can you continue to to contribute positively without disclosing your suggested way forward?"


Its in annex VIII, but all it does is tell you the braking force requirements (another positive contribution)

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

At the time inspiration struck, I was actually going over the reason's why it wouldnt work for the thousandth time, when it suddenly struck me that one of the regulations that makes it all ilegal when considered laterally actually contained the answer of how to make it work and legally too.

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

I'm am still trying to identify which regulations supposedly make it illegal ? and more specifically which actual paragraphs are being quoted, as I have heard so many things being said that it really starts to get very confusing.

Is it possible for someone to actually explain the points where they believe an "A" frame fail to comply and then actually quote the regulation including the paragraph where this non compliance can be found,

As from what i have been reading it would appear that a lot of the suggestions are either not being quoted verbatim and as I am sure you know most regulations allow for interpretation.

Example
I have read on another post that it is against the regulations ?? (which regulation) that you cannot use an electrical device to help with the control of the braking for the purpose of reversing, well I would really like to read the regulation that they have been quoting as from what i have read and posted above it would appear that this is not the case, while the section of the regulation amendment i have quoted doesn't actually say you can it quiet clearly dosen't say you can't, it just explains how the device has to perform. Also I am not up on the over run devices but I think someone mentioned that these could possible be adjusted to perform differently when the car was pushing or the car was being pushed could this possible be why the regulations have been worded as i have quoted above regarding the 8% for the reverse process ??

I really would appreciate if someone could point out the regulations and the actual paragraphs/amendments that they feel the "A" frame fails to meet.


Unless you want to tell me your secret, ??????????????

Thanks
Brian

Hi Brian

At the time inspiration struck, I was actually going over the reason's why it wouldnt work for the thousandth time, when it suddenly struck me that one of the regulations that makes it all ilegal when considered laterally actually contained the answer of how to make it work and legally too.

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986

and you will find what you seek under reg 15 and 16

BTW the above is also covered by EEC directives


No there is no room for "interpretation" braking must be by prescribed means (and that specifically bar's electronic transmission of braking like the brake buddy)

You will also find that construction and use requires reversing under control and it clearly shows that the present A frames are not legal without any room for doubt.

 

[Enodreven]

George, Please don't bring up the "Brake Buddy"

The "A" frame that I have been talking about as I descrbed earlier will be using a prescribed means e.g. an ALKO over run device and i did suggest two possible alternatives to deal with the reverse brakeing and nither of them were the BrakeBuddy, my first suggestion was the application of some form of electrical device to perhaps release the over run device when the reverse process starts and the other was perhaps the adjustment of the over run device to take account of a reverse procedure.

But thank you for your comments,, do the EEC directives take presidence over UK regulations ? only I would rather just read one set

As for the reversing thanks for your input but i did say that i would prefer to deal with one thing at a time ?



'

Hi Brian

The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986

and you will find what you seek under reg 15 and 16

BTW the above is also covered by EEC directives


No there is no room for "interpretation" braking must be by prescribed means (and that specifically bar's electronic transmission of braking like the brake buddy)

You will also find that construction and use requires reversing under control and it clearly shows that the present A frames are not legal without any room for doubt.

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

OK one thing at a time, "Braking" over run application, automatic reversing and prescribed braking force.

Prescribed braking force is easy to achieve (which makes me wonder why they dont do it)

Overun hitches are available to suit the weight of most vehicles, but the clever bit is how do you stop the AFrame trailer braking upon reversing? conventional trailer brake hubs have special internals that remove the braking force for reversal, clearly this is not an option (a car that doesnt brake in reverse would be ilegal)

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[Enodreven]

Hi, George

Perhaps I didn't explain myself the type of Overrun Hitch that would be fitted to the "A" frame i have been talking about would be I think manufactured by ALKO and match the towed vehicles weight, and yes i totally agree with you the clever bit is to be able to stop this applying brakes when the towing vehicle is being revesed, (thats why i proffered the question earlier "would the "A" frame meet the regulations while going FORWARD). When I mentioned the possible electrical application it was to try and overcome this very problem, I was thinking of the application of some form of reverse damping effect or perhaps locking the damping by perhaps the aid of a solinoid ??? connected to say the reverse light switch, so when reverse gear is selected the solinoid is ? energised to perhaps lock the overrun device open thus stopping the brakes from being applied ?? what do you think would it meet the regulations on reverse braking ?

Thanks for your input, i really do appreciate your help,

Brian

Hi Brian

OK one thing at a time, "Braking" over run application, automatic reversing and prescribed braking force.

Prescribed braking force is easy to achieve (which makes me wonder why they dont do it)

Overun hitches are available to suit the weight of most vehicles, but the clever bit is how do you stop the AFrame trailer braking upon reversing? conventional trailer brake hubs have special internals that remove the braking force for reversal, clearly this is not an option (a car that doesnt brake in reverse would be ilegal)

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

"would it be legal traveling forward?"

The answer is no, simply because the trailer must be totally legal to be on the road and an AFrame is clearly ilegal.

Soleniod is a difficult one from an engineering point of view, think of the hitch pin position when being stopped, first facing up hill and then downhill, now imagine switching the soleniod when engaging reverse, can you "see" the problem.

Strength of sol. engage pin would also be an issue it would have to be slack enough to engage easily but this would subject it to a severe battering, it would also have to default off

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

With regard to the traveling forward, I take and understand your point, but if we tried to take things one at a time would the type of system suggested meet the regulation while traveling forward we can deal with the Legal issue later once we have developed the whole ?

I appreciate the engineer aspect could be difficult, and i would bear to your better knowledge, but rather than a pin, would it be better to perhaps try to hold the overrun device in an open position electronically thus if the power failed it would leave the overrun in its normal state ?? not quiet sure exactly how but perhaps some form of electro/hydraulic piston pushing the overrun apart ?? what do you think of the possibilities ??

This is really hard because you probably have a much easier solution ?? never the less us it won't stop me trying, I may be able to wear you down that you give up and tell me ??

And anyone else who has any ideas please feel free to help out ??
Thanks
Brian

Hi Brian

"would it be legal traveling forward?"

The answer is no, simply because the trailer must be totally legal to be on the road and an AFrame is clearly ilegal.

Soleniod is a difficult one from an engineering point of view, think of the hitch pin position when being stopped, first facing up hill and then downhill, now imagine switching the soleniod when engaging reverse, can you "see" the problem.

Strength of sol. engage pin would also be an issue it would have to be slack enough to engage easily but this would subject it to a severe battering, it would also have to default off

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[Enodreven]

Hi, This has gone very quiet all of a sudden, ?? why

 

[fordy]

Hi Brian i have given up but i will watch this thread to see the out come if any but as far as it goes the std a frame that is in use works fine and no one has been prosecuted for using one, the police in the UK or any where else in France etc take no notice of the use of them and a company in France has started to make them the same as UK models and insurance companies cover them so they are recegnisd and IMHO are safer than using a trailer to carry a car a long way, but it would be nice to see you come up with a fully legal one or way to do this but i don't think you will get any more info on how to do it here but i hope you do good luck,,
a good thread Brian


FORDY

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Fordy

Who do you use to insure yours ??

Thanks
Brian

Hi Brian i have given up but i will watch this thread to see the out come if any but as far as it goes the std a frame that is in use works fine and no one has been prosecuted for using one, the police in the UK or any where else in France etc take no notice of the use of them and a company in France has started to make them the same as UK models and insurance companies cover them so they are recegnisd and IMHO are safer than using a trailer to carry a car a long way, but it would be nice to see you come up with a fully legal one or way to do this but i don't think you will get any more info on how to do it here but i hope you do good luck,,
a good thread Brian


FORDY

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[fordy]

I'm with safe guard i came acros this info i dont know whether it is any use....

FORDY:Cool:


FACT SHEET--------------
October 2005.
Note on A-Frames and Dollies:
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an A frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of dollies is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from A to B. Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer, if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: HYPERLINK "mailto:book.orders@tso.co.uk" book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: HYPERLINK "http://www.tso.co.uk/bookshop" www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
HYPERLINK Link Removed Link Removed

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: HYPERLINK http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:


Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078
Fax: 020 7944 2196

alison.alleyne@dtlr.gsi.gov.uk

TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk"

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Everyone

This topic seems to have died,

Just wondering how George is getting on with his new invention as i am sure a lot of us would welcome the introduction of an "A" frame that meets all of the regulations, so George how are you getting on and when can we expect to be able to purchase one of your new models ?? This is not a Joke,

To summarise on where I think we got with the endeavours of those who inputted into this disscussion, to make an "A" frame meet the regulations it would appear that while we have no real answer the suggestions were as follows

(1) The "A" frame would need to operate the towed vehicles brakes no matter what weight the vehicle is, and some of possible ways to achieve this that were suggested could be by the introduction of a Over-run device similar to those that are used by caravans with perhaps a cable connected to the towed cars braking system/pedal this would need to have a manually operated hand brake and unless the vehicles brakes are not servo assisted, you would probably need a vacuum system possible 12 volt that replenished the towed cars servo so as to allow the brakes to function correctly/adequately ?

(2) The towed vehicles brakes, as it would have become a trailer would need to automatically release when the trailer was being reversed, and possible ways to achieve this that were suggested could be with the introduction of some form of electro/mechanical/hydraulic device that acted upon the over-run hitch linked to the reversing light that stopped or held the over-run device open when reverse gear was selected on the towing vehicle.

(3) Another problem that was raised was the possible need to enhance the frontal protection of the towed vehicle if the metal protrusions/additions for coupling the "A" frame have interfered with the construction of the vehicle, this would need to be looked into as no definitive suggestions have been made albeit perhaps the metal protrusions/additions can be made to be easily removed ??

(4) The other problem that has been raised is the ability to reverse the towed vehicle and whether any form of manual intervention can be applied before the reverse maneuver starts, this needs further clarification as it would seem that there are occasions where manual intervention is carried out on the trailer section of some of the ultra Heavy lorries that carry these extreme loads and while this may not filter down to the type of trailers we are talking about it would be very interesting to to check if there is any link as if manual intervention is not specifically excluded or if it is only applicable to the actual trailer when the reverse maneuver has actually started then one of the suggestions below may overcome the reversing of a "A" frame,

4.1 Could a steering locking device be applied (not the normal steering lock as it has been pointed out that in a lot of cases this does not align the front and rear wheels

4.2 Could a designated drivers mate ?? be instructed by the driver to steer the towed vehicle ?? this may sound strange but the orginal European regulations make reference to the use of a drivers mate, and on some of the very very large exceptional load lorries they have rear wheel steering that is manually operated ??

4.3 Taking 4.2, if there is no specific reference to manual intervention before the reverse maneuver is carried out and that a drivers mate can be used, what would stop the decoupling of the towed car and thus reverting it back to a car ? It may need a declaration that the trailer can only be operated when a drivers mate is present ??

Hope these points make you think, as they are not conclusive in anyway but they do reflect a sensible dissusion on the subject ?

I still think we have a long way to go and assuming that some of the suggestions are possible the actual costs of some of them could be prohibitive, and its still not certain that they would work

Been an interesting disscussion, and thanks everyone for staying with the theme of the orginal request and not letting it digress into a legal slanging match as this subject normally does

 

[Jim]

We were speaking to a guy from the National Trailer Association at the York Show who insists that information he has seen will ensure that A frames will be patently illegal in 15 months and any grey area about their legality removed. I did not quiz him further on what he had seen but he went on to say that he and a partner were working on a "trailer" system that would conform to all the Euro regulations and be as convenient and easier to use that the current A frame. He clearly did not want to offer any more info as patents and legal issues were still pending. If he is right and his new product is as good as he promised he might be a rich young man in a couple of years.

The guy seemed genuine enough and really seemed to know his stuff. I wasn't the only person who listened to him on our stand, so I know I didn't misunderstand him. I suppose its a case of watch this space to see if he was spinning a yarn.

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[Suzy]

Was it GT?

 

[Jim]

Was it GT?

Could have been, he was a young, good looking chap.

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Jim

Thanks for the information,

I really do hope that they can come up with something that can be stored in a similar way to an "A" frame.

Lets hope they make it soon, it looks like watch this space

Thanks

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[Suzy]

I will be watching with interest.

I hate having the trailer it always seems to be problem when you get to the site. Where to put it, and, whether it is secure. Towing it is not a problem though forward or reverse!

 

[Enodreven]

Hi,

Just one more thought, it seems that the breaking both going forward and automatically in reverse in principal can be overcome, Therefore the main problem that still seems at issue is the control of the trailer while being reversed, without ? locking the front wheels ??

Any of you engineers out there !! do you think that there would be a way of making an "A" frame that could be attached to the front wheels of the car, perhaps with some form of bearings, it would need to be wide enough to miss the body work when the wheels are being turned ?? but that shouldn't be a problem as most motorhomes are substantially wider that the towed cars ??

any one any thoughts

 

[Road Runner]

It seems to me they would be better banning caravansafter all it's always them you see overturned during the summer months and not a string of motorhomes using A frames

By the way was a tugger and have no axe to grindjust being factual

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[justme AKA Grath]

Er

It seems to me they would be better banning caravansafter all it's always them you see overturned during the summer months and not a string of motorhomes using A frames

By the way was a tugger and have no axe to grindjust being factual

Er, I did see a Autotrail parked on it's wing mirrors a couple of weeks ago at Hilton Park

 

[Road Runner]

Er, I did see a Autotrail parked on it's wing mirrors a couple of weeks ago at Hilton Park

so that's one:Sad:

Doubt my Kia would flip me

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Endroven (sorry not sure of your real name)

Fair summary

Point 2 using reversing light MAY invalidate the legality, something I am/have been looking into, but been a little preoccupied lately. BUT for me "or held the over-run device open when reverse gear was selected on the towing vehicle." is the ideal solution and the basis for the solution I have "drawn"

Point 4 Whatever system you design MUST fail with brakes on and working, manual intervention not ok for trailers, only special loads (not sure of all details but definately not of any use to us)

Drivers mates etc would require change of law (unlikely )

Hi Jim Jam

The NTTA hmmm these are the UK trailer association, which is why it surprised me that their website was wrong about A frames, They did Change it after I emailed them, but its still not fully correct (or wasnt last time I looked)

wow Just checked and actually they have now made it worse ie even more inaccurate than it was before......

Young and good looking heh, thanks Jim. But if you look at one thing the young good looking guy said you will know it wasnt me he said "any grey area about their legality removed" I have always maintained, that there never as been a grey area, there still isnt one.

Hi again endroven

with regards to the steering post, if you solve the auto reversing brake problem a simple addition sorts the steering by the way you dont want the front wheels solid straight on they will "scrub horribly" :

Storage not really much different to standard A frame

To be honest one of the reasons I have not sold a solution is that no-one as been done for riding round with an Ilegal A frame yet, ie there is no perceived problem, when and if someone gets prosecuted.....

If I give any more clues someones going to "invent" it.

Hi Road Runner

They have not actually banned A frames, it is just that the product has never conformed to the law UK or EEC, A frames are inherently far more stable than caravan's.

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