How to Make "A" Frames better

[Enodreven]

Hi, Everyone

What I really find quite strange that when most questions are asked on any of the motorhome internet forums everyone tries to provide helpful suggestion s on ways to overcome the problems EXCEPT WHEN "A" FRAMES ARE MENTIONED everyone comes out with the same old stuff regarding the legalities, and even to the extent of some people finding enjoyment in trying to ridicule people who use them WHY ???

What would be interesting and a lot more helpful is to put all of the expertises that exist on this site into finding a method for making them legal. as from all of the information I have read it does seem from a motorhomers point of view if these could be made legal then they would become a much more used resource as they certainly are more user friendly than a trailer and so far no one appears to be saying they are dangerous it appears the only problem if you chose and "A" frame with an overrun device operating a cable braking system is one of reversing it and I certainly know quite a number of people who tow so called legal vechlices that cannot reverses them ?? .

So come on lets examine what would need to be done to make them legal and then lets put all of our minds together to overcome the problems please don't let us get bogged down on the legalities.

If you actaully look at one with a overrun cable braking system and hand brake etc. and assume that they can achive the minimum braking affect that is required ? without the servo operational what would need to be done to make this legal and far more important HOW WOULD YOU DO IT


If I haven't explained myself correctly please don't start nit picking I am sure you can all understand what I am trying to say


So come on stop quoting the legal system put your heads together and find a method of making them legal.

Brian

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

I see your idea, but in the case of legal trailers they can be reversed under control, in the case of A frames Roadsurface castor and camber decide where the vehicle is going not the skill of the driver. So unless the law changes to allow reversing in any random direction without control, I dont see that it is possible.

We cannot just assume that the braking effort on any given vehicle would be high enough, that would be dangerous.

If you want them to be legal then you need to get the law changed to allow trailers that cannot be reversed under control and that have suspect untested braking systems

 

[fordy]

Very helpful George oh:

hi Brian if the wheels are locked with the steering lock it is then controllable as a 4 wheel trailer, and the braking can be tested on each car to see if it needs any extra help like adding extra cable to the hand brake cable of the car to give more power to the braking, but most will be towing a small car which will have more than enough power from the overrun to be legal without the servo ..

FORDY

 

[Geo]

that cannot be reversed under control and that have suspect untested braking systems

They call them caravans George
geo

 

[moandick]

Reverse steering?

Fordy

I have a £2K trailer sitting on the park rotting for at least eleven months of the year and so I am really interested in seeing someone achieve a legal 'A' Frame.

Following your thoughts through, I simply cannot for the life of me see how the car could be steered backwards or forwards as a four-wheel trailer - if the steering wheels are locked?

If you are talking about an 'A' frame that fits directly onto the front axle ( for want of a better description) then I can agree with you to a certain extent but even so the steering shouldn't be locked, surely?

If you are talking about an 'A' frame that simply locks onto a bar that sits in front of the radiator - that could have no effect whatsoever on the steering, locked or otherwise.

Dick

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Fordy & Dick

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to look at this positively, I don't know enough about towing to really comment on reversing but from what you have said i really can't see why if the steering was locked with the wheels aligned why it wouldn't respond the same as any other 4 wheeled trailer or caravan. I also can't see why as you say that the brakes can't be tested in the same manner as trailers.

The problem that seems to keep being raised is the method for allowing the car/trailer to be reversed and from what i have read on other forums people keep saying that the mechanism for releasing the brakes when you want to reverse has to be automatic is this true or is it legal to make adjustments before you reverse e.g. by removing a pin and then locking the steering ??

Dick
"Quote
If you are talking about an 'A' frame that simply locks onto a bar that sits in front of the radiator - that could have no effect whatsoever on the steering, locked or otherwise.Quote"

Dick, I don't quiet understand your reasoning can you explain a little more as my thoughts were that when that "A" frame is attached to the bar it effectively makes the whole vehicle ridge e.g. the cars chassis becomes part of the "A" frame and visa/versa and if the front wheels of the car were locked in alignment with the rear wheels what would be the difference between that and your trailer ?

Please Everyone try to be positive in your replies don't keep trying to move the thread into the legality area

Brian

Very helpful George oh:

hi Brian if the wheels are locked with the steering lock it is then controllable as a 4 wheel trailer, and the braking can be tested on each car to see if it needs any extra help like adding extra cable to the hand brake cable of the car to give more power to the braking, but most will be towing a small car which will have more than enough power from the overrun to be legal without the servo ..

FORDY

 

[fordy]

Hi, Fordy & Dick

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to look at this positively, I don't know enough about towing to really comment on reversing but from what you have said i really can't see why if the steering was locked with the wheels aligned why it wouldn't respond the same as any other 4 wheeled trailer or caravan. I also can't see why as you say that the brakes can't be tested in the same manner as trailers.

The problem that seems to keep being raised is the method for allowing the car/trailer to be reversed and from what i have read on other forums people keep saying that the mechanism for releasing the brakes when you want to reverse has to be automatic is this true or is it legal to make adjustments before you reverse e.g. by removing a pin and then locking the steering ??

Dick
"Quote
If you are talking about an 'A' frame that simply locks onto a bar that sits in front of the radiator - that could have no effect whatsoever on the steering, locked or otherwise.Quote"

Dick, I don't quiet understand your reasoning can you explain a little more as my thoughts were that when that "A" frame is attached to the bar it effectively makes the whole vehicle ridge e.g. the cars chassis becomes part of the "A" frame and visa/versa and if the front wheels of the car were locked in alignment with the rear wheels what would be the difference between that and your trailer ?

Please Everyone try to be positive in your replies don't keep trying to move the thread into the legality area

Brian

Hi Brian that's exactly what i mean all wheels aligned it becomes the same as a trailer hence it can be reversed,and not allowed to turn on its own as i said before i have tried my car with the steering lock on and it backs up fine and tows fine but i do tend to tow with the lock off. the auto reveres is part of the aframe hitch or car coupler as it should be called now same as a caravan
We are talking about the same thing here i hope a fitted Aframe not a cheep recovery type strap on effort that are not safe for long term towing but the ones that have a frame fitted to the tow car permanently and you fit the tow hitch as and when you need to tow??

FORDY

 

[TestPoster]

Hi Brian
I like your approach to this problem mate...
I have read somewhere that an American company markets an A Frame system that provides a vacuum pump that is operated when the toad is connected to the towing vehicle, this then provides the same braking efficiency as when the car driver puts their foot on the brake pedal. It also mentioned that the braking effort was proportional not just on/off. I will try to find this company and if I manage I will put up a link.
I think the overrun braking could be overcome in much the same way as on a caravan, and that is by having a heavy duty damper on the head, which is sufficiently powerful to at least slow down the compression of the braking system, but not too powerful as to prevent it from operating when the towing vehicle applies its brakes.
Regarding steering, I think the problem is that with the front wheels locked in the straight ahead position (if this was possible, as most steering locks are not in the straight ahead but at some other, non defined angle...) the front wheels would drag when steering around corners etc. With a conventional trailer the wheels are amidships and as such the body of the trailer swings about the central axis, when there are wheels on each corner this is not possible, so the front wheels would inevitably scrub. When you see a four wheeled trailer the wheels are usually in the center as said except when they are mounted on a bogey and this allows the whole front axle to pivot around its mid point and thereby allows the trailer to steer.
The pivoting bogey does provide an element of steering control and allows the towing vehicle driver to determine the direction that the towed vehicle will travel in.
I hope this helps

Keith

 

[fordy]

Fordy

I have a £2K trailer sitting on the park rotting for at least eleven months of the year and so I am really interested in seeing someone achieve a legal 'A' Frame.

Following your thoughts through, I simply cannot for the life of me see how the car could be steered backwards or forwards as a four-wheel trailer - if the steering wheels are locked?

If you are talking about an 'A' frame that fits directly onto the front axle ( for want of a better description) then I can agree with you to a certain extent but even so the steering shouldn't be locked, surely?

If you are talking about an 'A' frame that simply locks onto a bar that sits in front of the radiator - that could have no effect whatsoever on the steering, locked or otherwise.

Dick

Hi dick well if the steering wheels are fix IE not steering then the only pivot point is from the hitch point same as a trailer i take it your wheels on the trailer don't steer? this was what made backing up a car on an aframe non controllable if that makes sense.

FORDY

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Fordy

I think we are talking about the same thing but i must first admit I have never towed anything so i really don't know the methods, but from the "A" frames I have looked at the only ones which seem to cover most of the objections I have read are the ones that have plates bolted onto the chassis of the vehicle and these have a tie bar across the front of the radiator to which you mount a "A" frame and it is held on to the lugs by some removal pins, they then have a brake cable that is routed through the car and connected to the brake pedal this from what i understand is actuated by a ALKO overrun device that forms the towing hitch they then have the wiring to connect the lights etc

Is that the same sort of thing as you are talking about

On the part of the automatic reversing someone gave me this link

http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18


the link states that EEC 71/320/EEC covers auto reverse braking systems and couplings. I did a Google on this reference number and found this site

Link Removed

I started to read through the documents and I don't seem to be able to find any specific mention within the main document or the supplemental changes of the need to have automatic brakes that will allow the vehicle to reverse ?

Obviously there needs to be a method to reverse the vehicle but its the automatic part that is the real concern, as in the orginal documents a drivers mate was acceptable for control purposes ? that's not to say we all want to have "motorhome mates" LoL but it does start to question some of the information that has been raised as to the method of releasing the brakes before affecting a reverse maneuver.

I will continue to search the documents but if anyone knows where within the EEC legislation this can be found I would be grateful

Brian

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[fordy]

Hi yes that's the same as I'm talking about. and all good aframes have auto reverse couplers as far as i can see from looking at them and breakaway and hand brake
and overrun. so its just the backing up under control

FORDY

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi

right with proper trailer brakes they are a known quantity and have been tested, with random cars there is no tesing done without servo assistance, trailers also have a built in facility to not apply the brakes when reversing.

At present the steering wheels on the car are free to turn at will, which works without problem when being dragged forwards, however on reversing they will turn one way or the other seemingly at will (its the Road camber, caster angles and roadsurface that cause this random behaviour)

Brian to give you an idea of the problem, try to reverse your car without holding the steering wheel and try to guess which way it will swing. The other problem is that if an over-run is fitted it will apply the brakes because car brakes are not fitted with auto reverse backplates.

Keith

A simple electric vacuum pump would do the same thing as used on electric vehicle conversions http://www.evconvert.com/article/electric-vacuum-pump

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Fordy

The auto reverse part is in the backplate on the hub thats all sorted in a trailer hub, but not in car Hubs and is there even such a thing fior a disc brake?

The silver part drops the pressure off the shoe if it is applied to the shoe in reverse, beautifully simple pce of engineering but alas not fitted to cars

Before anyone races out to reverse engineer their car, think about what it would do? yes thats right you would have no braking at all when reversing.......... unless of course you dont mind changing all the hubs over when on site (assuming you can find a car with 4 drum brakes)

 

[TestPoster]

Hi
The other problem is that if an over-run is fitted it will apply the brakes because car brakes are not fitted with auto reverse backplates.

Keith

A simple electric vacuum pump would do the same thing as used on electric vehicle conversions http://www.evconvert.com/article/electric-vacuum-pump

Hi George
I have obviously misunderstood this auto reverse concept. I did not realise that trailers had different brake back plates to achieve the reversing maneuver. I understood that the overrun device was a damper fitted between the coupling head and the brake actuation linkage so as to allow the brakes to actuate under towing vehicle braking, but hold off the application of the trailer brakes during the (gentler forces) reversing maneuver. I am certain that my caravan worked in this way?
I have seen, many times, a caravan being reversed up a slight gradient only to find that half way up (or thereabouts) the trailer brakes became engaged and reversing maneuvers stopped, this being due to the weight of the trailer being applied to the coupling and overcoming the overrun damper, thereby applying the brakes, in the same way that braking of the towing vehicle forces the weight of the towed vehicle to be subjected to the towing head and compression of the overrun device engages the trailer brakes.
I would be interested to find out more on this topic

Keith

 

[moandick]

Trailer wheels and steering

Hi Fordy

I'm still not on the same wavelength as you, at present.

My trailer is a twin axle, with both axles in the middle of the trailer, so when I go around corners, the front wheel rotates while the second wheel tends to 'skid' around a little bit quicker having a further distance to travel.

My car obviously has two axles , one at front and one at back but the distance between the axles makes it impossible to turn corners if the wheels are locked in line. One set of wheels must be able to turn corners in order to make the car go around a corner - just like a shopping trolley etc., etc., etc.
Surely you must have, at one time, tried to push a shopping trolley where the wheels are locked and the darned thing simply will not go where you want it to.

If you are going to turn the car into a four wheel trailer with all wheels locked into a straight line - then yes, you can push it forward or backward quite happily - but the camber of the road etc., etc will try to push it all over the place.

In order to counteract that movement you must be able to steer the trailer - which you cannot do if the wheels are locked in a straight line. (Or am I getting this thing entirely wrong?)

Dick

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Enodreven]

Hi,

As said above we will probably need to get the brakes tested without the servo unless the people on here like yourself can devise an acceptable method or making the servo operable when its being towed, so lets start devising before we give up ??

As said above there have been some suggestions that applying the steering lock and using this to lock the front wheels aligned with the rear may allow a reasonable reversing maneuver to be carried out (I have never reversed anything) but it does appear to look like a possibility albeit it may cause tyre wear ?

The over run brakes are only a problem if the legislation dictates that these must allow reversing to take place without the driver being allowed to leave his/her seat and not ask anyone to do it for them, e.g. walk to the rear of the vehicle and remove install a pin? to release the brakes for the reverse maneuver ? Having said that if they can't leave their seat or ask anyone else can they use electronic assistance ??

loads of questions and we are getting some very helpful input, lets solve this its surly not impossible? I have faith in you lot ?


Brian

Hi

right with proper trailer brakes they are a known quantity and have been tested, with random cars there is no tesing done without servo assistance, trailers also have a built in facility to not apply the brakes when reversing.

At present the steering wheels on the car are free to turn at will, which works without problem when being dragged forwards, however on reversing they will turn one way or the other seemingly at will (its the Road camber, caster angles and roadsurface that cause this random behaviour)

Brian to give you an idea of the problem, try to reverse your car without holding the steering wheel and try to guess which way it will swing. The other problem is that if an over-run is fitted it will apply the brakes because car brakes are not fitted with auto reverse backplates.

Keith

A simple electric vacuum pump would do the same thing as used on electric vehicle conversions http://www.evconvert.com/article/electric-vacuum-pump

 

[moandick]

Reverse steering

As far as I can see, the only way you can reverse a four wheel trailer (car+A Frame) is if the A Frame is locked rigid to the steering mechanism - be that an axle or whatever. That way the car has to go in the direction that you point the A Frame.

For an example I point you to the many 'drive and drag' lorries operated on the Continent. Not the 'mid-trailer' axle or the Artic type trailers but proper full-blooded trailers with a wheel in each corner.

As any decent driver, whether HGV or farm-tractor driver will tell you, these trailers can be reversed quite happily BUT it takes lots and lots and lots of practise!

From my caravan park management experience, many average caravan drivers can't reverse a simple caravan (hence the growth in the caravan motor-mover devices) let alone a four wheel trailer.

Dick

 

[TestPoster]

Hi Brian
I have answered some of your points in my post above matey

Keith

 

[justme AKA Grath]

How about something where by the 2 front wheels of the towed car ride on an articulated boggie and this way it could be reversed under control!:thumb:

 

[TestPoster]

Hi Justme
Are you suggesting that the front wheels are lifted off the ground, like a suspended tow? If so this will transfer a huge proportion of the towed vehicles weight onto the tow ball/hitch and probably more than the 50 kgs that is recommended. It would also have adverse handling characteristics for both vehicles as well as preventing proper braking by the towed vehicle
Just a thought

Keith

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[justme AKA Grath]

Hi Justme
Are you suggesting that the front wheels are lifted off the ground, like a suspended tow? If so this will transfer a huge proportion of the towed vehicles weight onto the tow ball/hitch and probably more than the 50 kgs that is recommended. It would also have adverse handling characteristics for both vehicles as well as preventing proper braking by the towed vehicle
Just a thought

Keith

No, what I meant was some sort of boggie on 2 wheels with the towed cars front wheels driven up onto the braked boggie.
In other words a 2 wheel braked trailer just for the fromt wheels.
Dont know how practical to use quickly, it was just a gut reaction.
Have I not seen something similar with some recovery services?

 

[Enodreven]

Hi,

This is getting very interesting just to summarize the input you have all been giving this subject it would appear that we are getting some where and assuming that we accept for this discussion that an "A" Frame is/consists of

A specially manufactured set of brackets that bolt/welded onto the tow cars exist chassis, to which are fitted a suitable designed cross-bar which has lugs at either end which will accept a suitably manufactured "A" which will be attached and held in place by locking pins this "A" frame will include a hand brake and a suitable towing hitch which incorporates a over-run device all connected to the cars existing braking system by means of a cable attached to the foot brake pedal.

Does that sound about right for what we are all calling an "A" frame ? just so we are all singing from the same hymm sheet so to speak ? if it is then from what i can see we need to answer the following questions

[1] Has anyone any reason to think or know that this suggested type of arrangement would be dangerous to use ?

[2] Do you think that when this device is fitted to the car it would make the car a trailer ?

[3] If it does become a trailer would it meet all of the requirements when moving FORWARD ?

[4] If it does become a trailer would it meet all of the requirements when moving in REVERSE ? if the following was carried out

The driver or another person went to the rear of the towing vehicle and inserted or removed a pin/link that temporarily disconnected the over-run device from the car braking system while the reversing maneuver was carried out, and at the same time applied the steering lock in the car making sure the wheels were in line ? all while the reversing maneuver was carried out?

[5] If the brakes are found to not be operating sufficiently without the servo, would it be acceptable to install a vacuum pump to assist the servo,

[6] How or where do any the above suggestion specifically meet or fall outside of the current trailer legislation

Just some thoughts ?

 

[justme AKA Grath]

No, what I meant was some sort of boggie on 2 wheels with the towed cars front wheels driven up onto the braked boggie.
In other words a 2 wheel braked trailer just for the fromt wheels.
Dont know how practical to use quickly, it was just a gut reaction.
Have I not seen something similar with some recovery services?

Answer this myself.
Wont work as the rear wheels would not be brakedoh:oh:

 

[TestPoster]

@ Graham...... Difficult isn't it??? Also specific speed limits apply to this type of recovery device, like 20 MPH on main roads????
Brian, I thought that the current legislation called for the brakes on the towed vehicle (trailer) to be mechanically actuated and if this is the case, then clearly use of the "cars" footbrake utilises a hydraulic system, therefore not mechanical in the true sense of the word?
I could be wrong, but that is my understanding anyway

Keith

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi all

In no particular order

Keith

Braking must be achieved by Mechanical or Hydraulic these are the only acceptable methods in euroland. I can hear people wondering about air brakes....... but as the great man said thats not important right now.....

Trailer brakes must be operated on over-run and auto-reverse (tractor trailer units are different and definately not applicable to what we are discussing)

Brian

to answer your question list

1] Yes it could be dangerous, the braking regs for trailers are there for a reason.
2] yes, but not a legal one.
3] No
4] No
5] yes it would be acceptable, however it would still be ilegal as a whole
6] No auto reverse brakes, No able to reverse (under control) without manual intervention.

Question

while sitting here, I think I have come up with a totally legal A frame set up, the question now is, who would be willing to buy it off me and for how much?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[moandick]

Dollies

Hi Justme

I know you have answered the question already but there is a legal situation which we could never overcome with the use of a dolly - and that is that the dolly itself is considered a trailer in it's own right so if you put a car onto the dolly, the Police consider that you have a trailer on a trailer - and that is illegal except for certain 'Showground or Fair men'

I quote:

Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere.

Note that there is a very specific difference between recovery and transportation. Recovery is the removal of a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. It does not include removing a rotor arm (for instance) and travelling the length and breadth of the country. The police are well aware of the difference due to the regulations covering Tachographs and Operators Licences. Recovery vehicles are exempt.

I know we are not supposed to quote regulations on this thread but I can't ever see a way to get over this one - and therefore it should be considered a total non-runner (unfortunately).

As for George and his legal A Frame - there are 7000 RV's registered in this country and lord knows how many Eurobuses. The possibility is limitless and I, for one, would start the ball rolling with an offer of £1,000. BUT IT HAS TO BE LEGAL AND TOTALLY RELIABLE!

(Or is it April 1st already????)
Dick

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Dick

No, its not April fool

Nothing is totally reliable, be reasonable

I am not selling a product or even working model, only the knowhow ie a drawing of a system which would meet the regulations.

Would work on any vehicle (could possibly be universal fitting or maybe simple adaptors required for each model) (any vehicle= we are talking normal towable cars here)

Fully functional brakes on the tow car

Over-run

Auto-reverse braking without manual intervention

Predictable controlled reversing

I cannot find a thing wrong with the idea, from a legal or engineering point of view

 

[moandick]

The Legal A Frame

Hi George

If you really think that you may have the idea on paper, why not register it with someone (copyright or certified copy signed/timed and dated by notary and placed in Bank Vault) and then talk to Chris Cox Towing Frames or Car-a-tow etc., etc., etc.

Or maybe show the basics to somebody who is really much, much more informed on the subject than me - an RV engineer such as Damon Dunc from Star Spangled Spanner, for example.

On the reliability point I simply ask what the Insurance Companies would make of it: -

"... I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers, most of whom will not cover the process. So what happens if, for example, the car unhitches itself and runs into a crowd at a bus stop? Will the car's insurer pay up - very unlikely unless you've got his prior written agreement since the car clearly wasn't being driven at the time. Will the towing vehicle's insurer pay up - normal insurance covers towed trailers for Third Party cover only. Well, maybe - unless, of course, they can make a case that what you were doing was illegal and thus not covered by the policy".

I, honestly, would be your first customer if it proved as good as you think - and I am willing to put my few measly quid where my mouth is. :thumb:

Dick

 

[TestPoster]

Hi all

In no particular order

Keith

Braking must be achieved by Mechanical or Hydraulic these are the only acceptable methods in euroland. I can hear people wondering about air brakes....... but as the great man said thats not important right now.....

Trailer brakes must be operated on over-run and auto-reverse (tractor trailer units are different and definately not applicable to what we are discussing)

Brian

to answer your question list

1] Yes it could be dangerous, the braking regs for trailers are there for a reason.
2] yes, but not a legal one.
3] No
4] No
5] yes it would be acceptable, however it would still be ilegal as a whole
6] No auto reverse brakes, No able to reverse (under control) without manual intervention.

Question

while sitting here, I think I have come up with a totally legal A frame set up, the question now is, who would be willing to buy it off me and for how much?

Hi again George
Now I am confused????? I never mentioned tractor trailer braking so I am unsure what your comment alludes to?
Secondly you have posted several times recently that brakes HAVE to be mechanical, I have copied a few of your posts here:

If you use a brake buddy its ilegal because braking must be mechanically controlled not electrically.


Regarding wagon and drag as you call it, the braking is mechanical and as such legal

Some people dont understand how air brakes can be legal, the answer is that they default to braking mechanically, only the removal of braking force is done by the air system. ie if the air fails the brakes get applied and you cannot then release the brakes until you fix the air system.

Also some buses have electromagnetic brakes, but in this case they are supplementory to the mechanical ones.

Braked trailers must be fitted with a parking brake that operates on at least two road wheels on the same axle. At all times it must be capable of being maintained in operation by direct mechanical action without the use of hydraulic, electric or pneumatic systems – i.e. Operated by rod or cable action. The efficiency of the handbrake must also comply with EEC Directive 71/320/EEC; i.e. It must be capable of holding a stationary trailer on a gradient of at least 16% (1 in 6.25)

I hope that you can assuage my confusion, as this seems to me to be an important topic, and whilst I broadly agree that A Frames would appear to be illegal for use in the UK under current legislation, I am left wondering what legislative documents you have read recently, that would now seem to indicate that you think hydraulically operated braking systems are OK, whereas you argued against them previously?
I think the easiest solution is for the government to change the law and then we could all tow like our American cousins
I'm off to bed now, but I do look forward to reading the reply, good night all :thumb:

Keith

 

[Xoxoc]

I think the easiest solution is for the government to change the law...

The danger is that any changes the governmebt made would be to bring us in line with the EU and declare a-frames for transportation illegal.

Bryan

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}