This is getting way too heavy for me I am out of this one
How Europeans see us. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Snowbird
- Start date
OP
OP
Snowbird
LIFE MEMBER
Me too.....Am gone :Cool:.
Momo
Free Member
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Momo
Free Member
Sorry, Peter and Snowbird, but your opinions are important to me and I guess to many others. Just because a MHF member had a little rant shouldn't mean the end to a very interesting thread! One of the most interesting since I have been a member.
Please don't go away!
Besides, JJ is having a fantastic time with Frankie and I don't doubt he can take it all on the chin! If he can't, I'm sure Frankie can sort him!
wivvy's dad
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Who wrecked British manufacturing? Thatcher
Who initially deregulated the banking system? Reagan, followed by Thatcher
Who initially deregulated the banking system? Reagan, followed by Thatcher
chesterfield hooligan
LIFE MEMBER
yes than greed set in 
old trade unioniest would have turned in their grave's if they knew how bent the trade union has turned into can you tell me they are not in it for thr power trip and money now and not for the "worker's" things have changed and not for the better Subscribers do not see these advertisements
ShiftZZ
LIFE MEMBER
I blame Cricket.
Let me explain, JJ is partially right, the UK is not poor, well not in comparison.
And that’s another question that has to be addressed, define poverty?
Anyhow back to Cricket.
What we have is a problem of ‘always doing the right thing’, even to our own detriment. Examples of which have been muted in previous postings. But I will highlight some.
A) We don’t have the ability to be harsh when it comes to the economy or commerce, indeed Dr Beeching was right, the railways were losing money and something had to be done (forget the bent politician who had vested interest in building roads, yes you Mr Marpels). Having said that Beeching was right, he was also wrong and we have found out with the French model. Who by all accounts have a good railway system. Therefore we wasted an opportunity to see beyond the potential short term loss or the railways compared to the ever spiralling costs of our road infrastructure.
B) We uphold the law and will go to the nth degree to do so. Look at H&S at work. We go OTT and in some ways that’s good, but in others it allows for abuse and that in turn increase the cost and burden.
C) Immigration and asylum. We again feel the need to be whiter than white (not a race issue) and will bend over backwards to abide by the rules, but, then that trait is abused by a large number.
D) Welfare and Benefits, my understanding is that the principle was a safety net and we were not happy to allow our fellow human, who by no fault of their own has fallen on hard times. Very noble gesture, but as we all know that is no longer the case, greed, want and abuse has taken over, combined with the political game of “who can get the most votes from this”.
E) We appear to waste a huge amount of effort, money, lives fighting wars that can’t be won (Afghanistan etc) just because some inbred US Nutter decides that he wants to save the world and the US economy (plus large vested interests in the defence industry, personal interest). The down side is that we lose, the Yanks gain from selling us the weapons to fire at the Taliban or whoever. Sounds very similar to NORAD!.
F) Defence, I fear r that invasion from a European nation is all in the mind, I fail to see any catalyst for the French to invade, we don’t have any industry, the roads are crap, railways expansive and late and to invade just for Stilton Cheese and Bacon is a bit extreme. I also don’t see the people of the Fatherland rushing over here for Tetley’s and a deckchair franchise in Bridlington. The EU. EEC whatever is the most ridiculous idea ever, they cant ever agree which city to live in, we send them money, they plonk it in a large pot, waste a lot of it and give the rest to some 3rd world European country or a study on bend bananas or some remote pond in deepest Suffolk to study the wildlife.post climate change.
G) Talking of Climate change, that’s something else, we all were scared $hitless with the large hole in the Ozone layer, it was skin cancer wall to wall, now that never mentioned (one we had spend millions/billions, I wonder who had shares in that ?)Then it was global warming, now that’s changed to Climate change. And no end of scientists and endless BBC reporters go all that way to the south pole to show you , SNOW, ICE and to tell you that its -89.7 degrees below zero. Yes, I know, I can tell by the SNOW AND ICE. Then we are told to be more economical with our travelling and that diesel is the way forward, so we all switch, what do they do, increase the price of diesel, why is it more expensive here compare to France? Supply and demand, yep, it’s been on short supply for the last 10 years plus. It’s nothing to do with the grabbing tax leaches or lack of political will to call their bluff (as do the French and sometimes win, well always)
So there you go Funsters, I blame Cricket, stiff upper lip, do the right thing, old boys’ network, send some money to the worlds starving (we still send aid to some of the world’s richest nations).
Finally, we may be rich, but we are an Olympic gold medal winner for wasting that wealth.
ShiftZZ
PS there may be some typo’s and spelling mistake, its too early in the morning…
Let me explain, JJ is partially right, the UK is not poor, well not in comparison.
And that’s another question that has to be addressed, define poverty?
Anyhow back to Cricket.
What we have is a problem of ‘always doing the right thing’, even to our own detriment. Examples of which have been muted in previous postings. But I will highlight some.
A) We don’t have the ability to be harsh when it comes to the economy or commerce, indeed Dr Beeching was right, the railways were losing money and something had to be done (forget the bent politician who had vested interest in building roads, yes you Mr Marpels). Having said that Beeching was right, he was also wrong and we have found out with the French model. Who by all accounts have a good railway system. Therefore we wasted an opportunity to see beyond the potential short term loss or the railways compared to the ever spiralling costs of our road infrastructure.
B) We uphold the law and will go to the nth degree to do so. Look at H&S at work. We go OTT and in some ways that’s good, but in others it allows for abuse and that in turn increase the cost and burden.
C) Immigration and asylum. We again feel the need to be whiter than white (not a race issue) and will bend over backwards to abide by the rules, but, then that trait is abused by a large number.
D) Welfare and Benefits, my understanding is that the principle was a safety net and we were not happy to allow our fellow human, who by no fault of their own has fallen on hard times. Very noble gesture, but as we all know that is no longer the case, greed, want and abuse has taken over, combined with the political game of “who can get the most votes from this”.
E) We appear to waste a huge amount of effort, money, lives fighting wars that can’t be won (Afghanistan etc) just because some inbred US Nutter decides that he wants to save the world and the US economy (plus large vested interests in the defence industry, personal interest). The down side is that we lose, the Yanks gain from selling us the weapons to fire at the Taliban or whoever. Sounds very similar to NORAD!.
F) Defence, I fear r that invasion from a European nation is all in the mind, I fail to see any catalyst for the French to invade, we don’t have any industry, the roads are crap, railways expansive and late and to invade just for Stilton Cheese and Bacon is a bit extreme. I also don’t see the people of the Fatherland rushing over here for Tetley’s and a deckchair franchise in Bridlington. The EU. EEC whatever is the most ridiculous idea ever, they cant ever agree which city to live in, we send them money, they plonk it in a large pot, waste a lot of it and give the rest to some 3rd world European country or a study on bend bananas or some remote pond in deepest Suffolk to study the wildlife.post climate change.
G) Talking of Climate change, that’s something else, we all were scared $hitless with the large hole in the Ozone layer, it was skin cancer wall to wall, now that never mentioned (one we had spend millions/billions, I wonder who had shares in that ?)Then it was global warming, now that’s changed to Climate change. And no end of scientists and endless BBC reporters go all that way to the south pole to show you , SNOW, ICE and to tell you that its -89.7 degrees below zero. Yes, I know, I can tell by the SNOW AND ICE. Then we are told to be more economical with our travelling and that diesel is the way forward, so we all switch, what do they do, increase the price of diesel, why is it more expensive here compare to France? Supply and demand, yep, it’s been on short supply for the last 10 years plus. It’s nothing to do with the grabbing tax leaches or lack of political will to call their bluff (as do the French and sometimes win, well always)
So there you go Funsters, I blame Cricket, stiff upper lip, do the right thing, old boys’ network, send some money to the worlds starving (we still send aid to some of the world’s richest nations).
Finally, we may be rich, but we are an Olympic gold medal winner for wasting that wealth.
ShiftZZ
PS there may be some typo’s and spelling mistake, its too early in the morning…
OP
OP
Snowbird
LIFE MEMBER
Well put Shifty. That answers my original post perfectly. Regarding F, a Spanish taxi driver explained that one to me last week. He said the Spanish never wanted to go into the EU. The Spanish government told the people it would be good for Spain and they would all be able to travel freely and have a single currency. They would not have to change money when they visit Germany !!!
. I wont tell you what he said about visiting Germany 
Well now where back on track
A little humour and a lot of sarcasm
I may just jump back in
A little humour and a lot of sarcasm
I may just jump back in
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2
2657
Deleted User
I find it exceedingly ironic for citizens of the USA to get upset about" illegal invaders", how do they think they got there!!!
Even more so as most of these illegals are Mexicans "invading" the large tracts of the western USA that were invaded and ceded to(annexed by) the USA at the end of the Mexican - American war.
There can be very few people in the world today who do not have ancestors orginating from a different location. Migrations and invasions have always been a fact of the human race.Borders, and flags, are political markers usually decided by wars and invasions, dictated by the victorious, and rarely taking account of the native inhabitants.
I find it ironic that invaders in white tin boxes who park up anywhere they can for as little as possible or better still free
Complain about foreign invasion
Funsters will take over the world
Or a least Southern Europe in winter
Complain about foreign invasion
Funsters will take over the world
Or a least Southern Europe in winter
OP
OP
Snowbird
LIFE MEMBER
Agree, very few can claim absolute pure blood. Some of my ancestors were thought to have originated from Egypt but I wouldn't dream of going into that one on here. Some from Wales, that seems to be the norm. Some from Ireland, that seems to be OK and even some from the now state of Israel. Human migrations have happened since the beginning of time, but nothing like the migrations we see nowadays.
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Is this a way out of the impasse?
Hi folks. Originally tuned in looking for motorhome tips but this thread clearly reflects a serious problem in our society and there have been some really excellent comments from wise people who have lived thru much of the flim-flam of decades of different politicians, thereby clearly illustrating the illusion of 'demoracy' in recent history.
The problem is that most people commenting have not come up with any suggestions to cure the situation. There is one and I thought i'd add my two-pennyworth.
The original idea of democracy/republicanism is based on Plato's Republic, a handbook written about 30BC which sought to perfect inter-societal relations for the ancient Athenian city state and which has been used ever since by 'democratists' to set and sell their political systems worldwide; e.g. the U.S. political system was squarely based on the 'Republic'.
What modern devotees of democracy rarely mention is that Plato's Republic was written for wealthy, high-status, influential Athenians like himself and relied on a permanent slave-class vastly outnumbering the 'intelligentsia'. The main purpose of this slave-class was of course to toil tirelessly for the higher-ups in return for small scraps for themselves. Sound familiar? A 2,000 year old Greek monumentalised the Class-System which we are all stuck in today.
The quote from Tyler was excellent and accurate but the historian missed out a couple of things. All 'successful' civilisations throughout history have come to prominence not by being clever but by judicious use of a slave class, which Tyler omitted to mention.
Britain came to world prominence and got it's empire in the same way the Roman Empire did, by raping countries that it invaded and subdued. Working class slaves in pre-WWII Britain who had to walk down their rat infested streets to find an outside loo before working 12 hour days 6 days a week, thought they were doing fine compared to slave Whallah's in India, in tow to the British Raj, who worked 14 hour days for a penny a day and then slept on the ground and crapped in any hole they could find.
In short 'profit' is only garnered at the expense of the suffering of other humans. Usually a slave class. In most recent times the slave class has been the Chinese who for two decades have provided us with cheap goods which would have been 10 times the price if produced in the U.K. Before that it was the Hong-kong/Tiawanese, previous to that Indians and before that Black African Slaves. etc.
One man by himself needs 100% of his time to maintain
himself and his family, and this with utmost difficulty. He cannot produce a 'profit' from his own work. It is the law of the wild. Thus robbing, and stealing from others (i.e. allowing enterprising individuals the space to prosper and then killing them and taking their produce from them) was the first, natural form of slavery.
But once you kill a man he cannot produce more and you are therefore cutting your nose off to spite your face. This is why serfdom developed. The 'nobles' took 25% of a serf's yearly production, year on year. The serf could subsist on this, just, but never get ahead.
In Scotland strong chieftans would invade areas and steal stored winter oats and barley from politically un-organised peasant farmers, leaving the farmer just enough to keep him alive to sow his next crop. This 'tithe' came to be known as Black Meal or as it is now known 'Black-mail'.
The structure of working for someone else in semi-slavery (serfdom) was a deal between ordinary agricultural folk who wanted space to live their life peacefully under the protection of warlike nobles who kept the Blackmailers and other criminals under-check. This is how capitalism started.
In short if one requires peace and law then one has to work collectively with others (army/police/courts) to maintain it and there is always a cost to this which will mean a compromise in one's income or lifestyle; perhaps a kind of national service if war looms, etc. etc. But there has to be a balance. The system has to be worth it to the serfs and that balance is constantly being erroded by the greedy higher-classes (bankers, politicians,courts, etc). When it costs too much a revolution is engendered.
As society became more complex and populations exploded we ended up with the 'democratic' system we have at the moment where Plato's 'intelligentsia' looks after our interests for us (we hope) and commune together in a central place (parliament) to convey the collective wishes of the populace to leaders from other areas. This was fine when it took 3 days to get from Edinburgh to London by a Coach-and-Four but is completely anachronistic today. All associations, unions, clubs and organisations which claim to look after and represent the will of a collective population or lobby today are built along these lines.
Of course with the Information Technology revolution this parliamentary approach has become an anachronism. The simple answer to 'demoracy' today is to allow every citizen to vote on every subject thought necessary to debate in parliament. Today we do not have to get agents to vote for us. We can vote ourselves efficiently and economically on-line for fast and perfect political representation.
The politicians fear this change because it is a form of proportional representation and will destroy the party-system. They cannot come to terms with losing their power over us so they continue to present us with the false choices of Conservative or Labour in a two-party system. It is the growing demand for proper individual personal representation which spawned the clash between the Arab Spring and old-style dictator-democracies in the middle-east. This was the first example of looming Internet Democracy.
Almost all businesses and most clubs and organisations now run on-line voting schemes and the percentage of members voting has shot up from around 20% to 80% and more in some instances. It is perfectly possible for there to be a secure Internet Parliament in which we (the people) can all take an active part which would RADICALLY alter the false pugilism of the old style two-party system which has bedevilled this country for the past forty years.
People therefore must get out of the habit of grumbling simply to assuage their frustration or to apportion blame and begin to demand an Internet Parliament and a proper choice in politics, otherwise democracy will be completely undermined and dangerous tyrannies will result to fill the power-vacuum with the inevitable revolution which always follows .
The Internet Parliament will happen sooner or later anyway but the sooner it occurs the better it will be for ordinary folk like those complaining in this thread, who feel powerless and disenfranchised in our modern democratic system.
Reggie
Hi folks. Originally tuned in looking for motorhome tips but this thread clearly reflects a serious problem in our society and there have been some really excellent comments from wise people who have lived thru much of the flim-flam of decades of different politicians, thereby clearly illustrating the illusion of 'demoracy' in recent history.
The problem is that most people commenting have not come up with any suggestions to cure the situation. There is one and I thought i'd add my two-pennyworth.
The original idea of democracy/republicanism is based on Plato's Republic, a handbook written about 30BC which sought to perfect inter-societal relations for the ancient Athenian city state and which has been used ever since by 'democratists' to set and sell their political systems worldwide; e.g. the U.S. political system was squarely based on the 'Republic'.
What modern devotees of democracy rarely mention is that Plato's Republic was written for wealthy, high-status, influential Athenians like himself and relied on a permanent slave-class vastly outnumbering the 'intelligentsia'. The main purpose of this slave-class was of course to toil tirelessly for the higher-ups in return for small scraps for themselves. Sound familiar? A 2,000 year old Greek monumentalised the Class-System which we are all stuck in today.
The quote from Tyler was excellent and accurate but the historian missed out a couple of things. All 'successful' civilisations throughout history have come to prominence not by being clever but by judicious use of a slave class, which Tyler omitted to mention.
Britain came to world prominence and got it's empire in the same way the Roman Empire did, by raping countries that it invaded and subdued. Working class slaves in pre-WWII Britain who had to walk down their rat infested streets to find an outside loo before working 12 hour days 6 days a week, thought they were doing fine compared to slave Whallah's in India, in tow to the British Raj, who worked 14 hour days for a penny a day and then slept on the ground and crapped in any hole they could find.
In short 'profit' is only garnered at the expense of the suffering of other humans. Usually a slave class. In most recent times the slave class has been the Chinese who for two decades have provided us with cheap goods which would have been 10 times the price if produced in the U.K. Before that it was the Hong-kong/Tiawanese, previous to that Indians and before that Black African Slaves. etc.
One man by himself needs 100% of his time to maintain
himself and his family, and this with utmost difficulty. He cannot produce a 'profit' from his own work. It is the law of the wild. Thus robbing, and stealing from others (i.e. allowing enterprising individuals the space to prosper and then killing them and taking their produce from them) was the first, natural form of slavery.
But once you kill a man he cannot produce more and you are therefore cutting your nose off to spite your face. This is why serfdom developed. The 'nobles' took 25% of a serf's yearly production, year on year. The serf could subsist on this, just, but never get ahead.
In Scotland strong chieftans would invade areas and steal stored winter oats and barley from politically un-organised peasant farmers, leaving the farmer just enough to keep him alive to sow his next crop. This 'tithe' came to be known as Black Meal or as it is now known 'Black-mail'.
The structure of working for someone else in semi-slavery (serfdom) was a deal between ordinary agricultural folk who wanted space to live their life peacefully under the protection of warlike nobles who kept the Blackmailers and other criminals under-check. This is how capitalism started.
In short if one requires peace and law then one has to work collectively with others (army/police/courts) to maintain it and there is always a cost to this which will mean a compromise in one's income or lifestyle; perhaps a kind of national service if war looms, etc. etc. But there has to be a balance. The system has to be worth it to the serfs and that balance is constantly being erroded by the greedy higher-classes (bankers, politicians,courts, etc). When it costs too much a revolution is engendered.
As society became more complex and populations exploded we ended up with the 'democratic' system we have at the moment where Plato's 'intelligentsia' looks after our interests for us (we hope) and commune together in a central place (parliament) to convey the collective wishes of the populace to leaders from other areas. This was fine when it took 3 days to get from Edinburgh to London by a Coach-and-Four but is completely anachronistic today. All associations, unions, clubs and organisations which claim to look after and represent the will of a collective population or lobby today are built along these lines.
Of course with the Information Technology revolution this parliamentary approach has become an anachronism. The simple answer to 'demoracy' today is to allow every citizen to vote on every subject thought necessary to debate in parliament. Today we do not have to get agents to vote for us. We can vote ourselves efficiently and economically on-line for fast and perfect political representation.
The politicians fear this change because it is a form of proportional representation and will destroy the party-system. They cannot come to terms with losing their power over us so they continue to present us with the false choices of Conservative or Labour in a two-party system. It is the growing demand for proper individual personal representation which spawned the clash between the Arab Spring and old-style dictator-democracies in the middle-east. This was the first example of looming Internet Democracy.
Almost all businesses and most clubs and organisations now run on-line voting schemes and the percentage of members voting has shot up from around 20% to 80% and more in some instances. It is perfectly possible for there to be a secure Internet Parliament in which we (the people) can all take an active part which would RADICALLY alter the false pugilism of the old style two-party system which has bedevilled this country for the past forty years.
People therefore must get out of the habit of grumbling simply to assuage their frustration or to apportion blame and begin to demand an Internet Parliament and a proper choice in politics, otherwise democracy will be completely undermined and dangerous tyrannies will result to fill the power-vacuum with the inevitable revolution which always follows .
The Internet Parliament will happen sooner or later anyway but the sooner it occurs the better it will be for ordinary folk like those complaining in this thread, who feel powerless and disenfranchised in our modern democratic system.
Reggie
gwil
Free Member
Hang on a minute. Instant voting would be responsive to the string pulling of the media. Demonization of a particular group would lead to punitive, and ignorant, responses.
A nasty murder? Bring back hanging.
One dole bludging child abuser kidnapping her own child for profit? Demonize a whole section of the working class.
Does anyone know we lose 1 billion annually on dole/benefit cheats, balanced by massive underclaiming? And that 70 billion is lost through tax evasion connived at by our politicians (eg; Lord Ashworth, ex treasurer and bankroller of the Tory party)?
I thought not. Yet a huge and influential section of the media is still hammering at the welfare state.
Online voting on serious issues is seriously scary.
A nasty murder? Bring back hanging.
One dole bludging child abuser kidnapping her own child for profit? Demonize a whole section of the working class.
Does anyone know we lose 1 billion annually on dole/benefit cheats, balanced by massive underclaiming? And that 70 billion is lost through tax evasion connived at by our politicians (eg; Lord Ashworth, ex treasurer and bankroller of the Tory party)?
I thought not. Yet a huge and influential section of the media is still hammering at the welfare state.
Online voting on serious issues is seriously scary.
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The media white washes the uk public, MAIL EXPRESS AND SUN are worse. One favourite subject single mothers.. according to them they are all teenagers and sponging on the state...FACT average age 38, 58% of their children conceived in marriage or partnership . Unemployed..no more or less than married parents. I HAVE FRIENDS THAT TELL ME ITS GOT TO BE TRUE , ITS IN THE PAPER. ha ha
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beachcaster
Free Member
Online voting will come for good or bad but not for some time I suspect...and as for the welfare state.........It was never envisaged to be as huge as it is today.
The incredible size of the welfare state is the reason we cant afford to continue as we have been for so many years.
barry
beachcaster
Free Member
The media white washes the uk public, MAIL EXPRESS AND SUN are worse. One favourite subject single mothers.. according to them they are all teenagers and sponging on the state...FACT average age 38, 58% of their children conceived in marriage or partnership . Unemployed..no more or less than married parents. I HAVE FRIENDS THAT TELL ME ITS GOT TO BE TRUE , ITS IN THE PAPER. ha ha
You forgot to mention 2 other bastions of " the truth"
The BBC and the Guardian barry
- Aug 18, 2011
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You have to remember that the welfare bill includes Old age pensions, bus passes, winter heating allowance which are probably a hugh proportion of the bill and are only paid when you retire and have been funded by probably 40 plus years of hard graft carried out by us old codgers.MPs get more for only 10 years in office.
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That is some statement reggie
One I think will cause some serious thought and discussion
Internet voting I don't think I could even envision such a system
It could lead to very fast changes and rash decisions made by people who are not fully aware of the facts and consciences
I will have to think about this one before commenting further its scary
And this from me a man that wants to live in a tin box
One I think will cause some serious thought and discussion
Internet voting I don't think I could even envision such a system
It could lead to very fast changes and rash decisions made by people who are not fully aware of the facts and consciences
I will have to think about this one before commenting further its scary
And this from me a man that wants to live in a tin box
- Aug 18, 2011
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forgot them
ShiftZZ
LIFE MEMBER
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Vote for me and the Motorhomes First Party and our 6 point plan
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No road tax for motorhomes
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Income tax at 5% flat rate for all motorhomers
Free ferries
Any loss on your original purchase price given back to you by the state
OP
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Snowbird
LIFE MEMBER
Didnt this one stir up a hornets nest . Some very good points though :thumb:. I never have this much interest when discussing things like this over a beer 
. Its my round next
. Some very good points though :thumb:. I never have this much interest when discussing things like this over a beer . Its my round next 
[QUOTE
Online voting on serious issues is seriously scary.[/QUOTE]
FORGET ONLINE VOTING
Postal voting has already opened the gates to abuse in Lancashire by certain groups.
Roll-on the Revolution!
Online voting on serious issues is seriously scary.[/QUOTE]
FORGET ONLINE VOTING
Postal voting has already opened the gates to abuse in Lancashire by certain groups.
Roll-on the Revolution!
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Mel
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Carol
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I always think the country started to go down hill, when more and more people started to rely on on the magic THEY to be responsible for them instead of people taking responsibility for their own lives, now it has got out of hand THEY are running out of money.
The current crowd are of party "leaders" are a prime example of this - they are all are "well educated", very rich and totally inexperienced in life.
It's hard to vote wisely when there is so little choice.
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JJ
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Love them or hate them (as most on here seem to) at least each member of the House of Commons has had to go to a certain amount of trouble and effort to get into a position to affect policy.
I suspect that if anyone and everyone could vote on every issue, whether they knew anything about it or not,simply by pressing a button on their remote control (in the break so they don't miss any of the latest reality TV programme), the outcome would be a disaster...
Thank goodness I am so lucky that, no matter what disastrous system is being used, I am mobile and self sufficient enough to look after most of my own simple needs... :thumb:
JJ :Cool:
I suspect that if anyone and everyone could vote on every issue, whether they knew anything about it or not,simply by pressing a button on their remote control (in the break so they don't miss any of the latest reality TV programme), the outcome would be a disaster...
Thank goodness I am so lucky that, no matter what disastrous system is being used, I am mobile and self sufficient enough to look after most of my own simple needs... :thumb:
JJ :Cool:
Last edited:
Carol
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As you say J J you have taken responsibility for yourself and not replying on. THEY. Some people won't even take responsibility for picking up their own litter, let alone their lives, but somehow these same people think they are qualified to run the country.
Last edited:
teddybard
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