How does the ANPR system identify the "type of vehicle"?

[BrianS]

Speed limits for our vans/mohos seems to be a bit of a grey area and I have been using Google to get some answers.

I just read this on the Business Vans website:

"With the vast major of latest generation safety cameras being directly linked to ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) systems, the data they record can immediately determine the type of vehicle being driven and therefore its appropriate limit for that type of road."

I am interested to know what details the ANPR collects to identify the type of vehicle and its "appropriate" speed limit. Is it from one or more of the Categories on the V5, perhaps D5 or J and, if not, where does it get the data?

Do we have anyone in the club that is in the traffic police that can advise or can someone point me to where I might get the question answered please?

 

[62272]

Assuming it is linked to the DVLA data base then it will be able determine vehicle class and weight, and the software script will merely link that to the legal rules applied in the program. The automated facts will be verified by a human before a letter summons/ticket procedure is instigated.

 

[gus-lopez]

it cannot differentiate between a van & a van being used as a campervan/motorhome which has higher limits & is classed as such just by its use & not on the data base.
there was a member on here who recieved a nip based on the assumption he was a van. ,which on the dvla base it was , who wrote back & informed them it was used as a motorhome & the nip was scrapped.

 

[andy63]

it cannot differentiate between a van & a van being used as a campervan/motorhome which has higher limits & is classed as such just by its use & not on the data base.
there was a member on here who recieved a nip based on the assumption he was a van. ,which on the dvla base it was , who wrote back & informed them it was used as a motorhome & the nip was scrapped.

im always interested in this subject , as I have had dealings with the Scottish force over this ...if its me you are referring to gus thats not quite right.... it wasn't scrapped and can't be if you accept the issued notice..
I got a sp10 notice , for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit,,, it was a self build camper van but re registered as a motor caravan...and the higher limit should have applied...I was within that limit..
without giving it a great deal of thought at the time and not really realising it was for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit , I just held me hands up accepted I was speeding and paid the fine.. and got 3 points...
when insurance renewal time came up they asked what notice id been issued and it was only then I realised id been incorrectly issued the ticket... the police just said it came back from the dvlc as a ford transit and they issued the ticket...
I had no recourse in law to overturn the points and fine so was stuck with them...my fault but rather annoying that the points were still kept..

 

[62272]

im always interested in this subject , as I have had dealings with the Scottish force over this ...if its me you are referring to gus thats not quite right.... it wasn't scrapped and can't be if you accept the issued notice..
I got a sp10 notice , for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit,,, it was a self build camper van but re registered as a motor caravan...and the higher limit should have applied...I was within that limit..
without giving it a great deal of thought at the time and not really realising it was for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit , I just held me hands up accepted I was speeding and paid the fine.. and got 3 points...
when insurance renewal time came up they asked what notice id been issued and it was only then I realised id been incorrectly issued the ticket... the police just said it came back from the dvlc as a ford transit and they issued the ticket...
I had no recourse in law to overturn the points and fine so was stuck with them...my fault but rather annoying that the points were still kept..

Assuming it is fairly recent I would advise you dispute it. i suspect from your response it occurred some time ago though. Just shows the system is not fool proof and you need to be on your game when these notices arrive.

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[andy63]

Assuming it is fairly recent I would advise you dispute it. i suspect from your response it occurred some time ago though. Just shows the system is not fool proof and you need to be on your game when these notices arrive.

im guessing it was around 2014, and I did take legal advice from a firm in Scotland ( at the time I realised my mistake,) that did supposedly specialise in this field...
it was them that told me that once you accept the fixed penalty notice you can have no further comeback... no way to turn back the clock...I even said that I wasn't bothered about the fine, but thought it a bit unfair that I had points on my licence that I thought technically shouldn't be there...

 

[gus-lopez]

im always interested in this subject , as I have had dealings with the Scottish force over this ...if its me you are referring to gus thats not quite right.... it wasn't scrapped and can't be if you accept the issued notice..
I got a sp10 notice , for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit,,, it was a self build camper van but re registered as a motor caravan...and the higher limit should have applied...I was within that limit..
without giving it a great deal of thought at the time and not really realising it was for a goods vehicle exceeding the speed limit , I just held me hands up accepted I was speeding and paid the fine.. and got 3 points...
when insurance renewal time came up they asked what notice id been issued and it was only then I realised id been incorrectly issued the ticket... the police just said it came back from the dvlc as a ford transit and they issued the ticket...
I had no recourse in law to overturn the points and fine so was stuck with them...my fault but rather annoying that the points were still kept..

No it wasn't you Andy but another thread as I remember you making exactly this comment on that posters thread who did dispute it.

 

[Oldrat]

And here is the problem.

Those cameras that do link to the DVLA database use the vehicle type on that database to identify the applicable speed limit.


However, as the DVLA themselves admit, the database should not be used for that purpose
See attached letter

 

[Orion]

Speed limits for our vans/mohos seems to be a bit of a grey area and I have been using Google to get some answers.

I just read this on the Business Vans website:

"With the vast major of latest generation safety cameras being directly linked to ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) systems, the data they record can immediately determine the type of vehicle being driven and therefore its appropriate limit for that type of road."

I am interested to know what details the ANPR collects to identify the type of vehicle and its "appropriate" speed limit. Is it from one or more of the Categories on the V5, perhaps D5 or J and, if not, where does it get the data?

Do we have anyone in the club that is in the traffic police that can advise or can someone point me to where I might get the question answered please?

This quote from your post has me thinking.

With some MoHos wouldn’t the applicable speed limit (within the U.K.) be based on unladen weight - which AFAIK isn’t on the V5 nor even supplied by many manufacturers - so impossible for the ANPR system to calculate?

 

[Whitebirdyman]

I also wonder if any of the cameras are able to detect that you are towing? Having a toad would lower the speed limit, but are cameras able to detect it?

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[Emmit]

it cannot differentiate between a van & a van being used as a campervan/motorhome which has higher limits & is classed as such just by its use & not on the data base.
there was a member on here who recieved a nip based on the assumption he was a van. ,which on the dvla base it was , who wrote back & informed them it was used as a motorhome & the nip was scrapped.

I had a similar conversation with a PVC owner who had been given a ticket from a fixed camera down in Cornwall.

Trouble was, because he didn't know better he paid the fine and accepted the points.

I often wonder what happened to his attempts to get his money back and the point rescinded.

 

[BrianS]

It looks as though we have ruled out "body type" as being relevant to a "motor caravan's" speed limit and that it is the unladen weight that is the key. However, this is not shown on the V5 so goodness knows how the police decide whether a speeding notice should be produced!

If your motor caravan' maximum unladen weight is not more than 3.05 tonnes then the 60/70 limits apply - the same as for cars. This web page is the key: https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Also, check out this You Tube video from Explore Van UK:
Campervan / Motorhome Speeding Ticket - Why you might get one and how to challenge it.

 

[Orion]

It looks as though we have ruled out "body type" as being relevant to a "motor caravan's" speed limit and that it is the unladen weight that is the key. However, this is not shown on the V5 so goodness knows how the police decide whether a speeding notice should be produced!

Probably just run with it and hope the ‘offender’ isn’t informed enough to challenge the NIP.

 

[martin2603]

DVSA Tax and MOT database will show the revenue weight of all vans and goods vehicles. Mine is recorded as a motor caravan revenue weight 5000kg PHGV. If your MH has been registered correctly take a printout and add it to your file.

 

[bigtwin]

DVSA Tax and MOT database will show the revenue weight of all vans and goods vehicles.

But, as noted previously, that isn’t relevant to the speed limits that are applicable.

Ian

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[activecampers]

OK, some facts rather than speculation

ANPR works on "body type" on the V5. Van, van with windows, (or whatever) - vs. MotorCaravan

Sadly, speed limits are NOT based on what the V5 says, so, sadly, if you have a VWW you can get fined even though you are legal. See my video after much research Sources for the information (Authoritative, not Forum Freddy) are in the description. Also read comments, someone got fined (incorrectly), they complained (rejected), then sent off links to the legislation then got the fine cancelled and an apology. To be fair, its a "niche" area of law and you can't expect the people processing it to know every little aspect. OK, we can expect it, but lets be real...... (my info is only based on < 3.5t - as I had no interest above that)

You can check what DVLA thinks you are by going here https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose and saying "make a one off payment". The response will give you a "class" of vehicle. Class B is "motor caravan" - and (I believe) the same data use used by ANPR. If you are class C, its a "van". So the tolls and ANPR will take that into account

My van was a "C" and after I won my DVLA battle due to self build (after 3 failed attempts, 2 failed complaints - but still won lol) mine changed to a "B" after a month or so. NO other data fields on V5 were changed, so I *believe* this is the best test you can do to see what you are according to DVLA

(Note: I am aware of cases (from google, not personally) who have pre-paid "motor caravan" tolls for Dartford, only to get fined for the system saying its a van! So its a PITA having a van registered as a VWW or whatever, albeit not a legal issue, just a pain for *every* congestion/air/parking/toll zone. Even internationally...... But thats another argument)

Anyway, here is my speed limit research and sources:-

 

[dunnah01]

According to the manufacturer's literature the Poids a Vide of RAPIDO camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order,
the driver - (75kg),
the gas bottle - 15kg
fresh water (20l) - 20kg
fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacity - 81kg
with a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21).

My Rapido 7065+ has a plate showing PV - 3.26t -- Poids à Vide = 3260kg

The www.gov.uk - Unladen weight shows the following:

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of:
fuel
batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

So my maths is as follows:

UK Unladen Weight = 3260kg (PV) – 75kg (driver) – 15kg (gas) – 20kg (water) – 81kg (fuel)= 3069kg +/- 5% (EC 92/21) = 2915kg to 3223kg

So is my Speed limit 50mph or 60mph on single carriageways and 60mph or 70mph on dual carriageways?

 

[Coolcats]

Speed limits for our vans/mohos seems to be a bit of a grey area and I have been using Google to get some answers.

I just read this on the Business Vans website:

"With the vast major of latest generation safety cameras being directly linked to ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) systems, the data they record can immediately determine the type of vehicle being driven and therefore its appropriate limit for that type of road."

I am interested to know what details the ANPR collects to identify the type of vehicle and its "appropriate" speed limit. Is it from one or more of the Categories on the V5, perhaps D5 or J and, if not, where does it get the data?

Do we have anyone in the club that is in the traffic police that can advise or can someone point me to where I might get the question answered please?

Simple’s it’s all held in a database just go DVLA put in your reg number of that of your neighbours vehicle and you will get some good base details…..they hold much more than is displayed to you such as the ViN number of vehicle. If It’s logged as a van rather than a MoHo in theory an automatic fine could be sent for a van travelling at over 60 mph for instance.

 

[Coolcats]

it cannot differentiate between a van & a van being used as a campervan/motorhome which has higher limits & is classed as such just by its use & not on the data base.
there was a member on here who recieved a nip based on the assumption he was a van. ,which on the dvla base it was , who wrote back & informed them it was used as a motorhome & the nip was scrapped.

A camper van is registered as just that, if the conversion has taken place but not registered it will be marked as a van.

So I think your comment is correct if the van has not been registered as a camper

Mistakes are made but whilst not unusual are probably not that common.

 

[Ranger]

Just to add a bit more confusion, on the v5 vehicles are classed as either N1 (goods) or M1 (passenger) but can still be registered as "Motor Caravan". Our "Motor Caravan" is classed as N1 so a goods van apparently.

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[Emmit]

According to the manufacturer's literature the Poids a Vide of RAPIDO camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order,
the driver - (75kg),
the gas bottle - 15kg
fresh water (20l) - 20kg
fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacity - 81kg
with a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21).

My Rapido 7065+ has a plate showing PV - 3.26t -- Poids à Vide = 3260kg

The www.gov.uk - Unladen weight shows the following:

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of:
fuel
batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

So my maths is as follows:

UK Unladen Weight = 3260kg (PV) – 75kg (driver) – 15kg (gas) – 20kg (water) – 81kg (fuel)= 3069kg +/- 5% (EC 92/21) = 2915kg to 3223kg

So is my Speed limit 50mph or 60mph on single carriageways and 60mph or 70mph on dual carriageways?

If it were me, (and I appreciate that not everyone would be sanguine about being in a Courtroom atmosphere), I
would regard your vehicle as being under 3.05 tonnes.

Whilst the 'Gross' weight? of 3069kgs is above the upper limit of 3.05T, the +/-5% as provided by the European Directive takes it
under the 'magic' figure.

Should some Hot Shot prosecutor fancy his/her chances at making a name for themselves, arguing that as a result of 'B'!!! we were not covered by the EU rules, I would argue that weight limit legislation here in the UK also uses the +/-5% flexibility to determine weights to put before a Court.

Go on. Be a devil and drive at 70mph on the dual carriageway.

 

[Pausim]

My V5C does not show N1 or M1 for vehicle category it shows 31. Does anyone know what this means?

 

[nicholsong]

My V5C does not show N1 or M1 for vehicle category it shows 31. Does anyone know what this means?

Probably means another c*ck-up in Swansea.

 

[Nigel P]

I also wonder if any of the cameras are able to detect that you are towing? Having a toad would lower the speed limit, but are cameras able to detect it?

Bus lane camera mistakes woman's sweater for number plate

A couple were sent a fine after a word on a woman's clothing was mistaken for their number plate.

www.bbc.co.uk

No it cannaot detect towing, it simply picks up a number plate and links to whatever that number is registered as with DVLA. The above article shows that much of the process has no human intervention unless queried. It is possible to create bespoke files for hotlists to account for unusual circumstances, non-UK registered vehicles, mis -configured ones etc.

 

[weefish]

Is this whole issue not caused by the DVLA ignoring the road traffic act and making up their own rules as to what constitutes a motor caravan?
On what authority are they allowed to do this?

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[Coolcats]

Is this whole issue not caused by the DVLA ignoring the road traffic act and making up their own rules as to what constitutes a motor caravan?
On what authority are they allowed to do this?

Lol that's like asking on what authority do the police courts have, they are part of HM.Gov

 

[nicholsong]

Lol that's like asking on what authority do the police courts have, they are part of HM.Gov

View attachment 680656

That answer totally ignores the 'Separation of Powers', see here -

Separation of powers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[nicholsong]

It would be very interesting to know what access various countries have to other countries vehicle registration information.

For example, which countries can access my Polish 'Antique' registration?

 

[Coolcats]

That answer totally ignores the 'Separation of Powers', see here -

Separation of powers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indeed it does but it isl a .Gov department and is bestowed with certain powers according to the law passed in parliament which is what gives its authority (I am sure a legal beagle will come along with a better explanation)

 

[Lenny HB]

It's a crazy situation in the UK with Motorhome speed limits set by unladen weight when most manufacturers do not give an unladen weight, the only one I know that does is Carthago and they have only been doing it for the last few years.
Also a van derived from a passenger vehicle the higher speed limit apply.

And if you get nicked it's down to you to prove the unladen weight of your vehicle which can sometimes be impossible.

Our next van on order is on the maxi chassis at 4250kg but the unladen weight is only around 2700 kg, can't see Mr plod believing that when it's registered at 4250 kg.