How clever are the EU's border forces? (1 Viewer)

[orridge]

There are a lot of comments about no border guards at each country so how will they check and stop us but are missing the point that we are checked leaving the UK and checked upon re-entering the UK at which point any overstaying would be picked up and could cause problems in the future going back into Europe.

 

[2657]

Only to the extent that some countries, UK included, offer longer periods. BUT the EU directive clearly states that after 90 consecutive days you automatically are classed as a resident.
Any sensible country required you to register as a resident as in that way any that could not comply , although unable to be deported/asked to leave, had in no way to be offered any type of assistance/benefits if they found themselves in need.
& so do those from southern Ireland, Eire.
& the UK passport holders are ****ed about something chronic.

I can assure you, after queuing for 20 minutes to clear passport control at Roscoff after a crossing from Cork, which is definitely in the Republic of Ireland, that all passports were checked and scanned.

 

[Hilewaychile]

UK will be a Third Country so Third Country rules will apply. Whether you spent longer than 3 months at a time in EU countries previously, you soon won’t be able to, holidaymaker or not.
You may be able to extend your stay with a Visa, but this is not clear yet.
The U.K. and EU may work out some arrangements later giving more flexible stays, but the people voted to stop this for everyone.
Re the bold type in your post, this is so often quoted but still incorrect.

This is from HMG's F & C Office page of advice. In fact it is the very first sentence for these popular destimation countries. All the others, ditto.

Visas and residency

You must register as a Spanish resident if you want to stay in Spain for more than 3 months.
You must register as an Italian resident (in Italian) if you want to stay in Italy for more than 3 months
You must register as a Portuguese resident if you want to stay in Portugal for more than 3 months

If you have authoritative info that contradicts this, please let us have it.

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[Allanm]

I can’t speak for those countries as all EU countries have their own definition of legally resident, but the title of the article you posted is “Visa and residency” It states that you want to stay for more than 3 months thereby assuming your intention is to live there.
We moved to France and only after living here for 3 months could we apply for residency.
it is not automatic nor were we considered resident after 3 months.

this is part of an authoritive document from French Law.

Article 4B of the Code Général des Impôts (CGI), where it gives a definition that is personal, professional and economic.

It states that you will be fiscally resident if:

• It is considered you have your main home in France;
• You carry on a professional activityin France, either self-employed or as an employee;
• Your centre of economic interests is in France, e.g. investments, business.

In order to assist with the determination of residency status the general rule that is applied is that if you spend 183 days per calendar year in France then you are deemed to be resident.
You will be resident in France if you live in France for at least six months of the year. This rule does not require that you live in a permanent home you have in France, but that you are merely on French soil for six months of the year.

However, the six-month rule is not absolute and there are circumstances, particularly in the case of business owners or professionals who may travel regularly, where even though they may have a home in France they may not be considered to be resident if they are frequently abroad.

In such cases, the French authorities and courts have been willing to review the circumstances for a longer period than a year in order to establish whether there is tax residency.

Conversely, even though you spent less than six months in France, you could also be resident if you spent more time in France than in any other country.

 

[2657]

This is from HMG's F & C Office page of advice. In fact it is the very first sentence for these popular destimation countries. All the others, ditto.

Visas and residency

You must register as a Spanish resident if you want to stay in Spain for more than 3 months.
You must register as an Italian resident (in Italian) if you want to stay in Italy for more than 3 months
You must register as a Portuguese resident if you want to stay in Portugal for more than 3 months

If you have authoritative info that contradicts this, please let us have it.

There is one problem that involves Portugal in particular but may involve other countries.

Upon taking out Portuguese residency, which is a relatively simple procedure, it is necessary to acquire a Portuguese driving licence within 3 months which at the moment is a relatively simple procedure.

After we leave the EU it will be necessary to take a driving test to acquire a Portuguese driving licence which is not a relatively simple procedure, just the opposite.

However this is not the main problem for me, and I suspect many others, having a Portuguese driving licence prohibits the driving of foreign registered vehicles in Portugal which would be a major problem.

That is my interpretation of what I have read and the experience of others, I am by no means an authority on these matters and would be happy to be corrected.

 

[moulin 87]

There is one problem that involves Portugal in particular but may involve other countries.

Upon taking out Portuguese residency, which is a relatively simple procedure, it is necessary to acquire a Portuguese driving licence within 3 months which at the moment is a relatively simple procedure.

After we leave the EU it will be necessary to take a driving test to acquire a Portuguese driving licence which is not a relatively simple procedure, just the opposite.

However this is not the main problem for me, and I suspect many others, having a Portuguese driving licence prohibits the driving of foreign registered vehicles in Portugal which would be a major problem.

That is my interpretation of what I have read and the experience of others, I am by no means an authority on these matters and would be happy to be corrected.

Perhaps Spain as well? France insist now you change your licence for a French one so that penalty points can be administered if required etc. though no new requests have been accepted in 2019 because of huge backlog carried over from 2017/18. I think a 12 month reprieve has been put in place after Brexit for everybody to change over.

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[tacr2man]

IIRC its a international requirement that if you are resident in that country you cannot drive a foreign vehicle on a foreign licence or even local licence with certain exceptions ? https://expatriates.stackexchange.c...ong-can-i-drive-a-eu-registered-car-in-the-uk

 

[2657]

I won't be worrying about it or changing my UK driving licence, in touring Europe for 30 years I have been asked to produce my driving licence once. I think I would be very unlucky for a normal police stop to enquire and check my residency status when driving a UK registered vehicle with a UK driving licence.
On the other hand driving a UK registered vehicle with a Portuguese driving licence would be immediately obvious.
I will take my chances and cross any bridges when and if they appear.

 

[jumartoo]

Perhaps Spain as well? France insist now you change your licence for a French one so that penalty points can be administered if required etc. though no new requests have been accepted in 2019 because of huge backlog carried over from 2017/18. I think a 12 month reprieve has been put in place after Brexit for everybody to change over.

Yes in Spain as well.

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[Rapido925M]

We lived in Marbella in 2009 and road-blocks to check cars with GB plates were moderately regular: allegedly there were lots of ex-pats driving vehicles without MOTs, insurance, tax or "having lived in Spain for more than 3 months". It was a good source of income!

Will Brexit (if it happens) reduce or increase that revenue stream?

Answer the question and make your decision about how long to stay there (and anywhere else between a UK port and a Schengen destination).

Gordon

PS Once when we landed in Portsmouth I was questioned in depth about where I'd come from: "that ferry" wasn't accepted as a sufficient answer.

 

[veevee]

One small piece of practical information re passport scanning and France.

On Sunday 15 September we passed through Folkestone headed to Calais. At the Eurotunnel border check points noticed the queue for French border passport checks was far longer than the UK one, usually it's by miles the other way round especially at 02:30am.

Sitting in the cab of a van could look down into the French control office and saw I think for the first time passport readers that looked the same or very similar to those used by UK border control. Time taken at the French office window was about the same as for regular UK passport checks. All this is unusual in our regular crossing experience as we were often just waved through if the office was attended at all.

Perhaps they are already geared up for 31 October and just putting into practice what will become the norm.?

The point is they certainly now know exactly when we are crossing into France and I assume when we exit France/Schengen), plus in what vehicle.

My understanding is you can only get extra time on top of the 90 days in 180 if you leave the Schengen area during the 180 days. So if you need an extra say 2 weeks in Spain or Portugal or other Schengen country you will have to leave Schengen for 2 weeks to gain that amount of credit, life could become complicated.

 

[veevee]

What happens now is really of no consequence with regards to what will happen when the UK leaves the EU. At the moment there is still free movement and checks on the amount of time you spend in EU countries isnt strictly monitored.
However, once the UK leaves there will be checks carried out, possibly by recording or stamping passports and if you are found overstaying in a Shengen zone, it won’t be the UK border force that takes action.

Remember, some people voted for this to happen!

This is from the Shengen info website.

If you are being tempted to do such thing, you should just know the following things:


First thing that you should know, is that an overstayed visa never goes unnoticed. The immigration authorities have registered in their databases every person that enters and leaves the Schengen, and every overstaying, even just for a day, is recorded.

Secondly, intentional or unintentional, no overstaying is left unpunished. It could be a fine, immediate deportation or even getting banned from entering the Schengen Zone for a specific amount of time.

Finally, yet importantly, it does not matter if you have entered Schengen territory on a Schengen Visa, or if you are the national of a country, to which a visa waiver has been applied. You are not allowed to overstay the 90 days amount of permitted stay per 180 days, even if you belong to one of the latter. It does not also matter if you are overstaying a Schengen tourist visa or you are overstaying a student visa. There is a visa overstaying penalty for each, and if you do such thing, you will get yours.

Consequences of overstaying in Schengen Zone
Despite that there is not a common policy for all Schengen Member States on the overstaying penalties, each of the states applies different types of penalties.

Therefore, the consequences of overstaying in Schengen territory, whether your visa or the permitted 90 days for nationals of the countries under the visa-waiver program, depend a lot on the number of days you have overstayed, and the country you get caught in. Germany is known to have the strictest immigration laws in the EU in this direction; while Greece is known for applying very high fines to those caught overstaying.

In general, all of the member states apply one of the following types of penalties for overstaying a Schengen visa or a permitted stay.

Deportation
When you get caught staying illegally in Europe, you will totally be deported to you home country. The deportation procedures depend on your case and the country where you are caught. You may be deported immediately, within just a few hours or after a few days. On the other hand, if you get caught engaging in paid activity while overstaying your visa, or engaging in illegal activities, you will most possibly be taken into custody where you will wait for your trial. If you are found guilty then you will be held in prison or fined with a high amount of money. Upon completing the punishment, you will then be deported to you home country and banned from entering the Schengen for a specific amount of time.

Deportation is always followed by another consequence. Usually you will know about it before being deported, since you will receive the decision on you case. If you have just overstayed a few days, and you are lucky to be caught in one of the countries that go easy on overstayers, you may leave without another penalty.

Allanm

Can you post a link to this site please or name it, looks very informative.

Thanks

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[SandraL]

Tourism - France-Visas

View all the details regarding your tourist or personal visa for France.

france-visas.gouv.fr

Seems you can apply for a tourist visa for france for up to a year. Hard part is providing an address, not sure if motorhome aires various will be ok.
Cost is 99 euros each. Will need to visit consulate and jump through a few hoops.
Not sure if you would be able to visit uk during the year.....

Note this is a french document, not an eu document

Follow the long stay link and then use the wizard button to try it out.

Since we only use eurotunnel , not spanish ferry etc it might work????

 

[Paddywack]

Tourism - France-Visas

View all the details regarding your tourist or personal visa for France.

france-visas.gouv.fr

Seems you can apply for a tourist visa for france for up to a year. Hard part is providing an address, not sure if motorhome aires various will be ok.
Cost is 99 euros each. Will need to visit consulate and jump through a few hoops.
Not sure if you would be able to visit uk during the year.....

Note this is a french document, not an eu document

Follow the long stay link and then use the wizard button to try it out.

Since we only use eurotunnel , not spanish ferry etc it might work????

Just don't forget to take your 44,000 euros that they'll need from you to cover the year your there. Oh and it's a one off so don't plan to go the following year.

 

[Northernraider]

The joys

17.4 million balloons

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[ceejayt]

Almost certainly there will be a visa waiver and there will be a visa system for staying longer than 90 days but it will be a long tine coming as all 27 states will need to agree how it applies to the UK

IF we get a deal then there will probably be a couple of years when nothing changes whilst it is sorted out.
IF No Deal the. The rules will immediately apply.

what I find interesting is that the polls on this site overwhelmingly supported Brexit and often rubbished the consequences of overstaying jn Europe.

I for one am dismayed at this curtailment if my freedom to travel.

One has made ones bed...

 

[CazPaul]

Almost certainly there will be a visa waiver and there will be a visa system for staying longer than 90 days but it will be a long tine coming as all 27 states will need to agree how it applies to the UK

IF we get a deal then there will probably be a couple of years when nothing changes whilst it is sorted out.
IF No Deal the. The rules will immediately apply.

what I find interesting is that the polls on this site overwhelmingly supported Brexit and often rubbished the consequences of overstaying jn Europe.

I for one am dismayed at this curtailment if my freedom to travel.

One has made ones bed...

The EU have right from the start done and said anything they can to make it awkward, try to change opinion, lie, most people see through them I hope because the EU are desperate for us to stay.

 

[2x2camper]

The EU have right from the start done and said anything they can to make it awkward, try to change opinion, lie, most people see through them I hope because the EU are desperate for us to stay.

Why would they make it easy, we are leaving their club but still want the advantageous of being in it.

Could you point me to some lies, I don't remember seeing or hearing any?

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[Paddywack]

The EU have right from the start done and said anything they can to make it awkward, try to change opinion, lie, most people see through them I hope because the EU are desperate for us to stay.

You mean the EU has stood by the statements it made prior to the referendum? And that the promises made by the Leave group, were as experts said at the time, undeliverable. We set the red lines that gave the EU no options but to protect the single market and those members that were staying in the club. If you want to understand their position just step into their shoes and tell me how they should act?

The issue for us as motorhomers is that some thought that traveling across the European continent would return to how it was 40 odd years ago and are only now beginning to see the issues caused by Schengen - and it's not good.

 

[Deneb]

Surely the EU didn't need to say anything. The position of citizens of non-EU member states has been clear for anyone to see before Brexit was even mentioned. We all have the means at our disposal to use the internet and read!

 

[moulin 87]

Surely the EU didn't need to say anything. The position of citizens of non-EU member states has been clear for anyone to see before Brexit was even mentioned. We all have the means at our disposal to use the internet and read!

Yes, but Brexiteers of course believe in unicorns, and that rules that don't suit are not for them, ie they are able to have their cake and eat it. A bit like proroguing parliament when it suits!!

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[Spriddler]

Oh! the Border force can catch them OK, 80 last night alone I understand. What they DONT do (and should) is put them straight back on a FRENCH beach, after Photgraphing, Fingerprinting and taking DNA. NOT bring them to the UK!. Same with the one`s who actually manage to land here.

I think it's because although we see them as economic migrants they actually claim asylum which gives them the right to remain here whilst their claim is processed.

 

[gus-lopez]

I think it's because although we see them as economic migrants they actually claim asylum which gives them the right to remain here whilst their claim is processed.

My understanding is that those picked up are landed in the Uk , processed, then returned to the French?

 

[Spriddler]

My understanding is that those picked up are landed in the Uk , processed, then returned to the French?

Hmm, not sure how long that processing takes but my understanding is that it can take a very long time. It seems that some have to wait a year or more and if asylum's refused, SURPRISE! ...they can't be found.

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[Deneb]

Back in the 70's when we detained illegal immigrants, we had to inform HM Immigration in Croydon. If they weren't interested in sending someone to the nick (which was most of the time) we'd give the detainee a map of how to get to the immigration centre and the train fare, then kick them out. Usually never to be seen again.

 

[Paul an Jane MK]

Aren’t we missing something? The way things are going, Brexit may well not actually happen or possibly be so watered down it barely makes any difference.

Our vet suggested not bothering to renew our dogs rabies jab for her passport as he did not even know if the passport would be valid in November.

Any one got a crystal ball?

 

[moulin 87]

Aren’t we missing something? The way things are going, Brexit may well not actually happen or possibly be so watered down it barely makes any difference.

Our vet suggested not bothering to renew our dogs rabies jab for her passport as he did not even know if the passport would be valid in November.

Any one got a crystal ball?

The ONE thing which is certain is if you're travelling abroad with your dog you'll need to keep up to date with it's rabies jab...….

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[The Lord Squid]

The EU have right from the start done and said anything they can to make it awkward, try to change opinion, lie, most people see through them I hope because the EU are desperate for us to stay.

Where have you got this from? You must live in a different world from mine.

 

[vwalan]

the rules were you could be a full member or a half member .
but once a full member you couldnt change to a half member so to me the choice we had was stay or leave .
there was no deal to be had .
stay or leave.
the vote was leave .
better we slam the door on the way out.
dont buy eu vehicles or anything from the eu.
dont buy from lidl or aldi etc etc .
not hard to under stand.

 

[gus-lopez]

Hmm, not sure how long that processing takes but my understanding is that it can take a very long time. It seems that some have to wait a year or more and if asylum's refused, SURPRISE! ...they can't be found.

No the arrangement is that any picked up in the channel are shipped straight back. No asylum applications accepted.

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