Herpetology (1 Viewer)

[old-mo]

Hi Mo,[HI] where did you get this quote from?[/HI] I'm not questioning you, just the quote. I know we could (and have) waxed lyrical on this debate - but does anyone really know for sure?????? - Are the A frame manufacturers making illegal to use kit, or are they correct in their docs??? Anyway.

The information I had/have (could reveal the source in private) is that the arrangement we are on about (a car on an A frame 'trailer' with mechanical actuated overrun brakes) falls into the category of O2 (though EC71/320 is type approval directive) which it can't be seen where the toads fall foul.
However,
Looking at the 'in use' regs (as in use on the road) of our fair land (unless we are missing something quite obvious) and road categorisation of defects against the C&U regs we cannot, for the life of us, see where anything is being 'violated' by the A frame/toad is concerned, as long as it's braked efficiently etc (lets forget the MV lighting regs for a minute).

Speaking to VOSA on this and they have issued several prohibitions to MH's with toads attached, generally for un-braked A frames - nowt else to do with towing toads, in fact referring to the roads regs/CoDs etc there's nowt to use as a prohibition reason - of course unless not maintained, incorrect, broken, hanging off etc etc.

I intend pushing this further (within the law) as I wish to get a definitive (as in law) yay or nay as to whether actual road use law is being broken or not...

Can't find anything yet on 'a trailer must be able to be reversed' not had the time yet, but if someone can point me to it I would be grateful. If I take it steady and I'm on level ground I can reverse my little car (Lordy, one finger can push it on level ground) on the A frame into the drive, for sure not up hill or for hundreds of yards as the brakes would come on as they do when I brake the MH going forward.

I could turn up at a VOSA site and say 'do your worst' if they (MH/braked A frames/toads) are indeed prohibiltable together then I could just take the A frame off - now I have a MH and a car no longer prohibitable and away I go.......:Blush:

Just really bloody curious, that's all.

Trikeman.

Regarding the quote,,, and I believe it is an up to date one...:Cool:

Off of one of the legal "A" frame fitters...

But cannot remember which one... oh::sorry2: :Blush:

 

[rainbow chasers]

The a frame law has been a little inconclusive for years; they lastly just preferred 'braked' to unbraked.

When they first decided on braked trailers, they wanted a mechanical mechanism - like a caravan as that was time-proven. This wasn't possible though, as the over-run/reverse bake issue caused difficulties. But is was the best they had so they went with that.

The americans had the answer - electronic servo brakes......but they didn't like the idea of that so insisted they had to be mechanical as it would be reliable, and their was proof of that reliability that electronics couldn't do.......only today they have HAD to accpet it as an option - most modern cars have electronic park brake - so it is safe.

As this law comes out, it will make the towing regs much more straight forward and easier to understand at last - it has been a tussle that even Trafffic Policemen have got wrong and backed down on before now!

You currently have two options to bypass towing/braking regs;

Towing dolly PERMENANTLY ATTACHED - Ugly thing to have hanging on the back though!

Spec-lift - this will stow beneath the (RV IDEALLY!) and extend out to lift the vehicle. Again, permanenetly attached. That is you only two ways AROUND the law.:thumb:

 

[Trikeman]

Thanks for that RC.
However, which actual law do they currently break?
For a Police officer to prosicute he/she has to have the relevant law or act broken.
If a combination can meet the minimum brake efficiency (and it's maintained etc) what does he/she cite as the offence?

Anacdoteally there's lots but for me to clarify this head on I have to have the specific law/act relating to it. Several 'law' agencies cite they are illegal, however not one has yet quoted the law/act that specifies it.

To help me in my quest, where does the info just relayed come from?

Regards,
Trikeman.

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[cranky]

I too looked at the optionand decided against it. In the last 5 trips,all in this country and between 2-10 days i've spent about £40-50 in buses and taxis. Over the course of a year I reckon its a damn sight cheaper than towing although not as convenient. It also seems a shame to visit all these lovely little towns without the local pubs benefiting from my custom!!

 

[cranky]

as for renting izzirent.com is handy. And they do an app for your phone.

 

[rainbow chasers]

Thanks for that RC.
However, which actual law do they currently break?
For a Police officer to prosicute he/she has to have the relevant law or act broken.
If a combination can meet the minimum brake efficiency (and it's maintained etc) what does he/she cite as the offence?

Anacdoteally there's lots but for me to clarify this head on I have to have the specific law/act relating to it. Several 'law' agencies cite they are illegal, however not one has yet quoted the law/act that specifies it.

To help me in my quest, where does the info just relayed come from?

Regards,
Trikeman.

Have a nose here; should have all the relevent links you need.
Broken Link Removed

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[Trikeman]

Hi Rainbow Chasers,
many thanks for the link - the same 'letter' (information sheet) I received from DfT (bless them).

It is full of 'should do's', 'likely's' and no committals or reference to direct illegal commitment. However, the only two areas they highlight that could cause a well maintained trailer (car) and 'A' frame to become 'illegal' as stated, is

a) the braking efficiencies (which can't be tested specifically on the trailer (car) whilst in motion) are below the requirements (as they guess could be true without servo assistance). If the trailer (car) brakes are maintained and the 'A' frame brake actuation is adjusted correctly there should be no problem meeting more than the minimum requirements static - Mine does in a brake rollers with the brakes operated by the overrun connection,,,,, and that's without servo 'assistance'. Afterall, I think DfT doesn't acknowledge the servo is to assist the application of the brakes to all, eg, a 9 stone female driver could apply the brakes to the requirement to stop, not only a 19 stone rugby player (who would have no trouble without servo assistance for sure).

b) the trailer (car) won't be able to be reversed (from a specific date). I can reverse my trailer (car) no problems - nothing states it has to be a 20% uphill or for two miles - I reverse mine in the drive no problem and would have no problems demonstrating this to the 'Officials' if needed.

The more I delve into this and speak to 'Officials' the more I am getting the idea that no one has really tested the 'theories' of A framed cars are indeed illegal, again even the DfT says it's down to courts to decided (let us just sit on the fence as I have nowt definitive to state). It's not as clear cut and as definitive where a specific law has been broken, eg doing 80mph on the motorway or driving at night without lights.

The Categorisation of Defects (the 'in use' bible used by VOSA roadside vehicle examiners) has no prohibition items to use, should the combination be maintained, adjusted correctly with the specific plate fitted and all required lights working correctly.

There is a form of 'excitement' around this subject (for me anyway) as I will get (maybe eventually) a definitive, documented answer. All I am asking for is support from like minded people (us) and any written directions eluded to.

Again, thanks for the link RC - the plot thickens......

Regards,

Trikeman.

 

[PaulyP]

We had the same problem. We have an Insignia estate, far too big.
I have just bought a Fiat Panda, on an 07 plate. We went for the 100hp one, which is actually really fun to drive, and now the Insignia gets left on the drive, unless the all three children want to come out with us (which is pretty much never).
Pretty good on fuel, over 40 mpg, cheap insurance £200.
Not sorted the a-frame yet, but i`m looking at this type of system http://www.unibrake.co.uk/

I also bought a 07 plate fiat panda and got an A frame fitted at Armitage trailers, work a treat, about 5 mins to fit, I can drive it up and hook it on without any guidance (as my wife is disabled and can't help) don't know it's there when moving and we need it due to the wife's problems.
When we get home I unhook drive it into the driveway and it's all still fitted for when we next need it.
Nippy car for the 2 of us, 2 small dogs on the backseat and wheelchair fits snugly in the back.

 

[mikebeaches]

We use a Chevrolet matiz, small and light but can carry 4 adults and a medium dog if needed.

We had a Matiz as a second car for 8 years. Surprisingly spacious inside, given how extremely narrow they are. And good leg-room in the back seats too - our sons are both 6' tall. Great to zip through the traffic in the city - so easy to drive. :thumb:

Would definitely get another if thinking of having a toad.

Mike

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[TheBig1]

I really am very surprised that you havent got written advice from the various manufacturers. I know for a fact that at least one but maybe other manufacturers have employed solicitors and specialists to try and get a definitive answer from VOSA re the legality of their system.

If several companies, who have a great deal to gain financially from it cannot prove the legality of a braked A frame system, what chance do you stand??

At least 2 member states of the EU have deemed such towing methods illegal for use on public roads. It is more probable that others will follow suit. Especially relevant as the EU is making noises that motoring law should be the same across all the member countries. just this week we were told that most member states were signing up to a cross border treaty that means any motoring offences committed in other member countries can be pursued in your home country.

Personally i think youre wasting your time money and effort flogging a dead horse with your enquiries. mind youre not the first and doubt you will be the last to waste effort on this

 

[Chris]

I have thought about A frames and trailers but decided against it.

I can hire a car, use cabs , buses or trains.

If push really came to shove and I needed a car all the time I would get a caravan I think.

 

[Trikeman]

Hi, I don't think I will just give up,,, yet, more trying the reverse.
Not going to ask any one to say its legal, not many would/could state that without seeing it, probably pull up, 'there it is' and wait to be told it's illegal (hopefully due to lack of prohibital items I'm let go). Then if stated 'illegal' they will have to state which law/act it violates. If they have one I have a choice - give up and accept it or challenge it.
To date VOSA have not prohibited one braked A frame/car that is correctly fitted and maintained - plenty of unbraked ones though.
Just a precedent I'm after, not so much hearsay anacdotes.

Regards,

Trikeman.

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[sdc77]

Great title had to look it up too

We have considered an a frame and discounted it in favour of a small trailer