Help! - To buy or not to buy?

[chenderson1965]

Hi all.

So I’ve now been for the test drive In a 2012 N+B Arto 79R manual 3.0l. It’s only done 20k miles, HPI is clear and service history all looks good with only minor issues all of which seem to have been dealt with. It looks like it’s had new tyres relatively recently. It has a few extras including satellite TV, hydraulic levelling, habitation air con and a cat 1 alarm. We’ve agreed a price of £56,500 with the dealer - which seems from my research to be reasonable.

I noticed a couple of issues today that I’d read about elsewhere on here.

1) We didn’t get much of a chance for reversing, but when he was reversing it back into place there was definitely some juddering.

2) The front side windows both had a bit of condensation. On a warmish dry day the drivers side looked a bit smoky (no visible droplets but definitely not completely clear). I couldn’t see anything on the passengers side but the salesman thought the seal might be going there too - and made it clear that they didn’t have enough margin in the price we have agreed to put them right.

So my questions are, how serious are the problems, how much will they cost to put right and what is likely to happen if they aren’t attended to?

I’ve paid a deposit (which we agreed would be returnable if issues were found), and have an inspection booked for next week. There’s no point wasting money on an inspection though if I should be walking away...

Any help any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[MikeD]

Whilst I don't know who makes the windows for the motorhome you are thinking of buying there are not so many makers around for them.

The makers of the motorhome will almost certainly buy them in.

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A replacement window glass is generally under £200 and a whole new window is around £600.

Whilst misted up windows are a bit of a pain only you can decide if the pain is too much.

There are other pieces on the motorhome that cost a whole lot more and you definitely want to see them operating correctly. Cooker, heating, Fridge etc.

Re: the juddering - we had a Fiat 2012 and had no problems but I would definitely find a hill to reverse up before paying the final bill if you are worried.

 

[DaveandJen]

Get your deposit back as quickly as possible and walk away. If the salesman thought the front window seals had gone and openly stated that they didn’t have enough margin in the sale to replace them —- they are not the type of people you want to be dealing with when spending £56,500.00. If they won’t replace the window seals when the £56k is still in your bank account what chance do you think you would have resolving any other issues found after you paid them. I remember reading lots in the past about Fiat based vans and Motorhomes suffering from bad juddering when in reverse and driving up-inclines about the time this Motorhome was produced which I understand was caused by the gearing in the diff but unable to remember the year or build numbers as of little interest to me at the time. It could be worth having a look around on the internet to see what you can find.

 

[Crazylegs]

If you consider the asking price reasonable and it’s the model that works for you, spend a couple of hundred on an inspection. You will then be armed with facts rather than opinions, any faults that are identified can then be priced so that you can make an informed and balanced decision.
I work within the motor trade, a general rule of thumb is that a dealer will usually bend over backwards to sell that over age vehicle that there has been little or no interest from customers. On the other hand if the vehicle is in fair condition for its age and is desirable, they know if you don’t buy it someone else will.

 

[rb62]

funflair replaced the front side windows in his N&B I think,had them made by a chap in Banbury,can't find the thread just now ?

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[Ivory55]

Was the dealers lips moving ? If so he was lying. Haha

 

[Grianan]

I’d be more worried about the juddering than the windows ... you should be able to work out replacement cost of those quite easily,

In your position I try to persuade myself on one course of action e.g. to go ahead then see how ai feel about it. If I feel worried and anxious I know to walk away. It’s not the most rational approach but it works for me.

 

[funflair]

Get your deposit back as quickly as possible and walk away. If the salesman thought the front window seals had gone and openly stated that they didn’t have enough margin in the sale to replace them —- they are not the type of people you want to be dealing with when spending £56,500.00. If they won’t replace the window seals when the £56k is still in your bank account what chance do you think you would have resolving any other issues found after you paid them. I remember reading lots in the past about Fiat based vans and Motorhomes suffering from bad juddering when in reverse and driving up-inclines about the time this Motorhome was produced which I understand was caused by the gearing in the diff but unable to remember the year or build numbers as of little interest to me at the time. It could be worth having a look around on the internet to see what you can find.

I that is slightly unfair to the dealer, assuming he had discounted and given a good price “as is” to expect him to then stump up a few grand for new windows is a bit much.

Martin

 

[funflair]

Hi all.

So I’ve now been for the test drive In a 2012 N+B Arto 79R manual 3.0l. It’s only done 20k miles, HPI is clear and service history all looks good with only minor issues all of which seem to have been dealt with. It looks like it’s had new tyres relatively recently. It has a few extras including satellite TV, hydraulic levelling, habitation air con and a cat 1 alarm. We’ve agreed a price of £56,500 with the dealer - which seems from my research to be reasonable.

I noticed a couple of issues today that I’d read about elsewhere on here.

1) We didn’t get much of a chance for reversing, but when he was reversing it back into place there was definitely some juddering.

2) The front side windows both had a bit of condensation. On a warmish dry day the drivers side looked a bit smoky (no visible droplets but definitely not completely clear). I couldn’t see anything on the passengers side but the salesman thought the seal might be going there too - and made it clear that they didn’t have enough margin in the price we have agreed to put them right.

So my questions are, how serious are the problems, how much will they cost to put right and what is likely to happen if they aren’t attended to?

I’ve paid a deposit (which we agreed would be returnable if issues were found), and have an inspection booked for next week. There’s no point wasting money on an inspection though if I should be walking away...

Any help any advice greatly appreciated.

OK cant help with clutch judder as ours is a Flair on IVECO chassis, Hydraulic legs that is £5k?

So the windows £2k per side if you go to the only UK dealer, a bit less if you go to the factory in Germany, possibly a lot less if you talked to PSV glass OR depending how hands on you are you can take out the frame very easily and drill out a few rivets, split and clean the glass panels and have them revealed for less than £100, I had new panels made for less than £200 I is from Yorkshire so don’t like wasting money?

As rb62 rightly says it was a firm in Banbury that made me the panels, they have to finish up at 12mm thick which means 4mm heritage glazing bars and 4mm glass the original Mekuwa windows are 3mm toughened and 6mm glazing bar but getting 3mm toughened in the UK is quite difficult hence the 4 4 4.

OK its a bit of a mess on but the double glazing is so much warmer in the winter and they don’t steam up,

If the van is right for you and the price is right with a little bit on the side to make it perfect why walk away?

Martin

 

[normanandsue]

I have owned one of these with the same problem. It became so bad I coulď not see out of my wing mirror so it is a serious problem. I could mot find anyone to replace them and so took it to Germany to the factory who cut put the bonded windows and replaced them for half what Travel world were going to charge

Unless you are absolutely certain you can get these windows repaired or replaced walk away as the problem will only get worse quite rapidly.

I must admit they are lovely mhs

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[Wagoneer]

The judder problem was present on both the 2.3 and 3.0 litre up to a certain manufacturing date but didn't manifest itself in all cases. There was a fix on the 2.3 where they fitted a lower ratio reverse gear. This was not possible on the 3.0 litre because of insufficient space.

About 2010/11 the problem was apparently resolved. If you have the VIN number you should be able to determine when the base vehicle was manufactured. MH's tend to have a longish gestation period between base vehicle production and registration.

A new clutch and dual mass flywheel (approx £2k) may cure the problem but can't be guaranteed. It's a pity you weren't able to get the driver to test it on a steeper slope. Think your first course of action is to determine when the base vehicle was manufactured.

 

[chenderson1965]

The judder problem was present on both the 2.3 and 3.0 litre up to a certain manufacturing date but didn't manifest itself in all cases. There was a fix on the 2.3 where they fitted a lower ratio reverse gear. This was not possible on the 3.0 litre because of insufficient space.

About 2010/11 the problem was apparently resolved. If you have the VIN number you should be able to determine when the base vehicle was manufactured. MH's tend to have a longish gestation period between base vehicle production and registration.

A new clutch and dual mass flywheel (approx £2k) may cure the problem but can't be guaranteed. It's a pity you weren't able to get the driver to test it on a steeper slope. Think your first course of action is to determine when the base vehicle was manufactured.

Thanks. I do have the VIN number. How do I use this to get the date of manufacture?

Thanks. Chris

 

[chenderson1965]

OK cant help with clutch judder as ours is a Flair on IVECO chassis, Hydraulic legs that is £5k?

So the windows £2k per side if you go to the only UK dealer, a bit less if you go to the factory in Germany, possibly a lot less if you talked to PSV glass OR depending how hands on you are you can take out the frame very easily and drill out a few rivets, split and clean the glass panels and have them revealed for less than £100, I had new panels made for less than £200 I is from Yorkshire so don’t like wasting money?

As rb62 rightly says it was a firm in Banbury that made me the panels, they have to finish up at 12mm thick which means 4mm heritage glazing bars and 4mm glass the original Mekuwa windows are 3mm toughened and 6mm glazing bar but getting 3mm toughened in the UK is quite difficult hence the 4 4 4.

OK its a bit of a mess on but the double glazing is so much warmer in the winter and they don’t steam up,

If the van is right for you and the price is right with a little bit on the side to make it perfect why walk away?

Martin

Thanks. If I can get them replaced for that little money then certainly I’d do that. Can you let me have the name of the company in Banbury you used and I’ll give them a call?

Thanks. Chris

 

[funflair]

Thanks. If I can get them replaced for that little money then certainly I’d do that. Can you let me have the name of the company in Banbury you used and I’ll give them a call?

Thanks. Chris

Hi Chris

The company in Banbury are CN Glass, they made two new panels for me after I broke one of mine I had to do everything else, remove frame from the van split frame and remove glazed panels then supply them with a template and refit panel to frame and fit and seal frame to van.

If you don’t want/can’t do that work you need one of the other more expensive options.

Martin

 

[Cheshirecat57]

So to be clear, you have agreed a deal and left a deposit ( presumably shaken hands, actually or metaphorically)
Now you want to change your mind........

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[funflair]

I have owned one of these with the same problem. It became so bad I coulď not see out of my wing mirror so it is a serious problem. I could mot find anyone to replace them and so took it to Germany to the factory who cut put the bonded windows and replaced them for half what Travel world were going to charge

Unless you are absolutely certain you can get these windows repaired or replaced walk away as the problem will only get worse quite rapidly.

I must admit they are lovely mhs

Yes yours was an older Arto I believe and the factory used to bond the frame to the body so not so easy to remove.

And yes you are right they only get worse and if left with condensation for too long the glass gets etched and won’t clean up so it has to be a new panel.

Martin

 

[funflair]

So to be clear, you have agreed a deal and left a deposit ( presumably shaken hands, actually or metaphorically)
Now you want to change your mind........

The original post explains the arrangement I believe.

Martin

 

[Cheshirecat57]

The OP was interested in ex hire vehicles just 2 weeks ago

Has now booked an inspection on this 7 year old vehicle, but is considering cancelling that as well as the purchase

Just trying to get my head around it, thats all. I’m sure they can answer for themselves BTW

 

[maz]

There will always be other motorhomes coming on the market. If in doubt, walk away.

 

[funflair]

The OP was interested in ex hire vehicles just 2 weeks ago

Has now booked an inspection on this 7 year old vehicle, but is considering cancelling that as well as the purchase

Just trying to get my head around it, thats all. I’m sure they can answer for themselves BTW

OK sorry, I thought it was just a conversation so I joined/butted in.

Martin

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[Hymer 1961]

I couldn’t find the MH advertised online so I assume this is not a main dealer.
Do you know how long it has been on the dealers forecourt and the ownership history?

I would certainly pause for a moment and reflect before I parted with £57K+ and ask myself a few questions. Is the dealer acting with integrity? The price you say is competitive, however there is no wiggle room to put right defective windows which could be very costly and time consuming.

Inevitably once you have parted with your hard earned cash, windows and gearbox aside, there is going to be the odd problem that will need a repair/fix under warranty, assuming you get one. I guess the bottom line is, do you trust your gut and have confidence that the dealer will honour any problems going forward?

 

[Campervan_man]

Ask Autoglass for a quote on the windows. They do and can be replaced. Be careful when filling with fresh water as the water tanks are in between the double floor and can over flow in to this area if over filled. I have seen a few of these vans swamped with water. All the habitation electrics are housed in this area. They are very nice vans though.

 

[Wagoneer]

Thanks. I do have the VIN number. How do I use this to get the date of manufacture?

Thanks. Chris

A Fiat Professional Services garage should be able to interrogate their database, perhaps for a fee.

Alternatively, the documentation that came with the vehicle should include the Fiat Motorhome Warranty and Services booklet. On the inside page there should be a date when the Fiat base vehicle was received by the converter. Also, there should be a green coloured document from Fiat with date of manufacture.

The other problem is determing the definitive VIN from when this problem was apparently resolved.

If there is some detectable judder in reverse, it's only going to get worse and a good reason to reject. Perhaps time to walk away.

 

[gus-lopez]

If I feel worried and anxious I know to walk away

That means I'd be walking away from everything.

 

[maz]

I couldn’t find the MH advertised online so I assume this is not a main dealer.
Do you know how long it has been on the dealers forecourt and the ownership history?

It’ll be the one at SMC. Newly arrived with them so no pictures yet.

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[chenderson1965]

The OP was interested in ex hire vehicles just 2 weeks ago

Has now booked an inspection on this 7 year old vehicle, but is considering cancelling that as well as the purchase

Just trying to get my head around it, thats all. I’m sure they can answer for themselves BTW

Yes, I was looking at ex hire vehicles a couple of weeks ago. I asked for some advice for things to look out for before we went to look at it. When we did, we didn’t like it. It just felt cheap and a bit fragile so we have been looking around for something with a little better quality - which meant a bit older given our budget. Then we found this N+B.

 

[chenderson1965]

Update. I have been back to have a second test drive to check particularly for me clutch. I think it’s fine. It does judder, in the way that any vehicle would, if you allow the revs to drop too far and it gets close to stalling but just a dab more on the accelerator and it pulls perfectly smoothly and happily. I’m satisfied that it has no issues but will ask the inspector to double check that as well.

I took the opportunity to have another look at the windows. At the moment it is noticeable but only just so. What I don’t know of course is how much worse that will be in cold/damp weather. I’m following up on some of the suggestions that people have made for alternative fixes since I did check with the main N+B importer - who would charge £1775 plus £450 fitting for each side!

 

[chenderson1965]

I couldn’t find the MH advertised online so I assume this is not a main dealer.
Do you know how long it has been on the dealers forecourt and the ownership history?

I would certainly pause for a moment and reflect before I parted with £57K+ and ask myself a few questions. Is the dealer acting with integrity? The price you say is competitive, however there is no wiggle room to put right defective windows which could be very costly and time consuming.

Inevitably once you have parted with your hard earned cash, windows and gearbox aside, there is going to be the odd problem that will need a repair/fix under warranty, assuming you get one. I guess the bottom line is, do you trust your gut and have confidence that the dealer will honour any problems going forward?

Thanks. A few people have made comments to this effect – some implying more directive and others that dinners are not, perhaps to be entirely trusted!

I’ve done my research on this dealer who is large and reputable. The vast majority of reviews I can find for them are positive. I took his warning about not being able to do anything on the price for remedying the windows to be both open (I would rather he said that now than allowed me to spend money on the inspection and told me later) - and also a savvy bit of negotiating/positioning to try to dissuade me from arguing later for an adjustment to the price!

In short, I do believe they are a reputable and trustworthy dealer and I do think the salesman I am dealing with is straight. They do, of course, have commercial interests to protect - as do I - when it comes to agreeing a price and the costs of remedial work, so my trust has to be tempered by some negotiating pragmatism!

 

[Lenny HB]

If you are certain the clutch is OK, negotiate £5k off the price to cover the windows. Never believe dealer BS that they have no margin, UK dealers normally work on high margins.

 

[MartMaeve]

nd made it clear that they didn’t have enough margin in the price we have agreed to put them right.

Haha I laughed out loud at this - You are spending £56K and think there is no margin in the sale price? Try asking the salesperson how much they paid for the vehicle, what their preparation costs were and what margin they think is reasonable on a luxury purchase like this.

Then walk away.

In a very short period of time you will hear the scramble of well heeled feet running after you...