Hello and help (1 Viewer)

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
53
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47,350
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Novice
Hello all,

This is my first time on a forum, so I'm sorry if I'm doing it wrong or typing in the wrong place. It looks interesting the information about Rallies and other peoples travels. I can't wait to read more! At the moment though...I’m just wondering if there’s anyone with the same or similar model motorhome who might be able to offer some advice.

We have just bought our first Hymer, it’s a B544 year 2000 left hand drive with a Traumatic C system with boiler and heating via gas. I filled the water tanks today and then opened the hot water taps in the bathroom and kitchen to fill the boiler. I left the taps running until all of the air appeared to have come out of the taps and then turned them off and turned on the hot water boiler on the control panel (on the side, exterior of the wardrobe. The boiler is in the base of the wardrobe.)


The yellow light came on (on the panel) as indicated in the handbook and then when the yellow light went off (I checked and it had after about 20 minutes) I ran the hot water…it let a little water out for about a second and then spluttered and was forcing air out all over again for quite a few minutes. After that the water ran freely….but it was completely cold(n)(n). The yellow light came back on the control panel and so I thought I’ll leave it for 50 minutes, maybe I’d not given it enough time (being a complete novice). I came back again and the exact same thing happenedo_O.

I felt the boiler and it was really warm and started to get concerned as I’d heard horror stories about boilers burning dry:(. The little red valve (for emptying the boiler) was up as per the previous owners instructions and the manuel (we’ve also tried this after we bought it when we brought it home to drain it for the cold weather and it did indeed empty the tank.) I then pressed the little red valve down to see it there was any water in it as I couldn’t understand how the boiler was warm but the water was completely cold. It was empty, it made some sighing and gulping noises but no water came out at all! So now I’m worried that I’ve killed my boiler but also where the water is going and why it is not staying in the boiler. I’ve emptied the whole system to see if it was an air lock and started again. But again the same thing happened (I opened the hot water tap to fill the tank…however didn’t switch the boiler on this time). When I came back the boiler had drained itself again.

So this is all that I know, the boiler seems to be emptying itself off straight away into the grey waste tank (as this was empty and had water in it after I came back having left it with the boiler full…I had the plugs in the sinks when running the air/water through to fill the tank so there was no water going through from these). Also there are three little pipes under the motorhome (under where the boiler is, one of them is where water would normally come out if you drain the boiler) and once I’ve filled the boiler….I can hear it sucking up air into one of these tubes. I wondered if there was another valve that had come open (we haven’t opened any others to my knowledge, I’ve looked around the boiler and can’t find any other valves apart from the main red one either).

Any advice would be much appreciated, many thanks in advance Helen:D:D:D
 

MikeD

Free Member
Dec 21, 2011
3,936
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IH PVC
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Since 2012
Hi Helen - I alas can't help you but welcome to the Fun.

I am sure someone will be giving you some good advice soon.

:welco:
 
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3874helen

3874helen

Free Member
Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
Funster No
47,350
MH
A Class
Exp
Novice
Ps sorry if I've garbled on for too long....I just wanted to make sure you had all of the information that I could think of, to save you having to ask me lots of questions(y)

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Lenny HB

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 18, 2007
52,375
146,639
On the coast in West Sussex
Funster No
658
MH
Hymer B678 DL
Exp
Since 2008 & many years tugging
:pink:

Hi, it is probably a faulty relief valve a common fault, it is a red T piece on the side at the top of the boiler it is to let air out as the boiler fills from empty. There is an inlet pipe to it and the outlet one will exit through the floor, if there is water coming out of this pipe that is is your problem.

Leisure Shop Direct stock them about £10.

The only way water can get into the grey tank is from sink, shower and wash basin waste outlets.
 
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3874helen

3874helen

Free Member
Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
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47,350
MH
A Class
Exp
Novice
Hi Lenny,

Cheers, I'll go and have a look for this valve and check it, I checked earlier and there is no water at all on the floor inside the boiler cupboard, the water seems to be going into the grey waste tank. I'll go and look again now.
Thanks H :)

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3874helen

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
Funster No
47,350
MH
A Class
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Novice
Hi Lenny, is this what you mean (photo attached)? Its a red hose coming up to a plastic junction which goes into the top of the boiler and a clear tube going up and away from the junction. The only other red thing i can see is the button to drain the boiler.
 

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Nov 4, 2011
5,863
37,797
Uk
Funster No
18,763
MH
A class
Exp
2001
We have a 2001 Hymer with the boiler in the wardrobe as you have. As well as the red dump valve( electric cold temp protection) you also have 2 manual valves for draining water out of system, these have a screw valve on top and dump through the floor and also another pipe tee off the boiler outlet,goes through the floor and this has a non return valve built in and that's probably the air sucking in. So get the valves on the floor are shut.
This is a photo of the valve that goes through the floor, I've removed my hot water one as it was leaking in van.

IMG_2059.JPG
 

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3874helen

3874helen

Free Member
Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
Funster No
47,350
MH
A Class
Exp
Novice
Hello Manic, thanks for your reply, sorry If I sound totally daft...I am little but keep that quiet....so I've looked in the cupboard for these valves and I can't see them, will go and have another gander. The t piece out of the top of the boiler, is that like the photo I attached? The other thing I wondered, when these valves on the floor are open, does the water come out under the motorhome (similar place to when you dump the boiler water) if so its totally dry and I keep watching for any water coming out when I refill the boiler but it really seems to be going into the waste water tank, is this what should happen? Sorry for all of the question, it's a steep learning curve for me :ROFLMAO::D2

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3874helen

3874helen

Free Member
Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
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47,350
MH
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Novice
Hi again Manic, ok so there are none of these valves on the floor, it has three plumbing type black pipes underneath the boiler, they come towards the front of the cupboard and then go under the floor, I've the front of the panel off and looked all underneath. With regards to this t piece, was the photo I attached earlier the correct thing? If so if that was the problem would that normally suck the air back into the tank and send the water out of the boiler into the grey waste tank? I just want to try and be as sure as I can before I go messing with that in case it's ok haha. Thanks again for all of the advice so far.
Thanks Helen
 

XRN

Oct 10, 2014
312
294
Plymouth
Funster No
33,775
MH
Hymer B680 Starline
Exp
We are no longer Newbie's.
We have a 2001 Hymer with the boiler in the wardrobe as you have. As well as the red dump valve( electric cold temp protection) you also have 2 manual valves for draining water out of system, these have a screw valve on top and dump through the floor and also another pipe tee off the boiler outlet,goes through the floor and this has a non return valve built in and that's probably the air sucking in. So get the valves on the floor are shut.
This is a photo of the valve that goes through the floor, I've removed my hot water one as it was leaking in van.

View attachment 148320
The valve shown here may have a red or blue screw cap and are for hot and cold water system draining. They will be screwed to the floor in the boiler compartment and probably hidden by the blown air ventilation tubes so you may have to move them to see. When open, (anticlockwise) water from right and left sides comes out of the bottom pipe and through the floor which drains water from bathroom and kitchen taps. These 2 valves need to be closed (fully clockwise) before filling the fresh water system and boiler using the tank pump. The red one you pull up to fill the boiler is just for the boiler draining when the temperature outside and in drops below something like 8 deg to prevent it freezing up. It also should be closed (up) for filling. You do get a lot of air out when filling, hold the shower head up and open valve also to expel air. If the tank pump does not have a non return valve fitted the fresh water system tends to syphon back to the water tank which draws in air and causes spluttering when the taps are opened the next time. If all the valves above are closed you should not see water draining out of the bottom of the van unless the non return valve you have photographed on the side of the boiler is faulty which is a cheap fix. No water goes to the grey water tank from the boiler or water system as has been stated before so where that is coming from can only be from sinks and shower.
Rob
 
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irnbru

LIFE MEMBER
Jun 27, 2013
13,501
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26,684
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Benimar 264
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Sorry I can't be of any help but
smiley-hello-clipart-1.jpg.gif

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3874helen

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
Funster No
47,350
MH
A Class
Exp
Novice
Hello Rob,

sorry I'm a newbie and some of this is a bit technical for me, can I just confirm what you mean on some bits before I go waving around my socket set :LOL:
Ok so I'll go and lift the blown air ventilation pipes up to look underneath...do these break pipes easily as they seem quite rigid in place?
Is the non return valve the "t valve piece"? If not what does one look like?
When you say if we don't have a non return valve fitted it can siphon back to the water tank, my boiler was completely empty, would that normally be the case? Whilst the boiler was on, heating up.....I pressed down the red valve for a few seconds to check there was in fact water in there but it had completely drained out. I don't understand how the grey water tank is filling up (I empty it after running the water through the hot taps when filling the boiler) and I come back half an hour later and it's got quite a bit of water that comes out of it and I don't see any wet patches from under the boiler on the drive.

Also just thought I should mention...we had drained the system for winter as we had quite a frost a couple of weeks ago and this the first time I've tried to use it since then. Plus I didn't drain these two red or blue cap valves as I didn't know they existed, so maybe that caused some damage under there...

Thanks for your patience - Helen
 
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3874helen

3874helen

Free Member
Feb 16, 2017
53
19
France
Funster No
47,350
MH
A Class
Exp
Novice
Hi Rob,

sorry I forgot to say, when you mention "You do get a lot of air out when filling, hold the shower head up and open valve also to expel air" which valve do you mean?

Thanks Helen
 

Lenny HB

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 18, 2007
52,375
146,639
On the coast in West Sussex
Funster No
658
MH
Hymer B678 DL
Exp
Since 2008 & many years tugging
Hi Lenny, is this what you mean (photo attached)? Its a red hose coming up to a plastic junction which goes into the top of the boiler and a clear tube going up and away from the junction. The only other red thing i can see is the button to drain the boiler.
Yes that looks like it, I've only every seen them in red.

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Nov 4, 2011
5,863
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MH
A class
Exp
2001
The tee you show has a non return built in which failed on minehttps://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/truma-ultrastore-elbow-34150-01/3284 , the top vent pipe exit the van just in front of rear wheel and runs down wheel arch trim. The drains I showed are in each pipe, the one in the red pipe is screwed to the floor where the pipe comes from boiler and goes down to the floor(about 600mm from boiler)
 
Aug 6, 2013
11,931
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Kendal, Cumbria
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27,352
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On my 2005 B584 there are three places to drain water: the first is the main cold water storage tank drain which in my case is under the table. There's a cut-out in the panel that falls out when pressed & the main drain cock is behind it. The second place has two drain cocks in the pipework. On mine the bottom panel of the shelves at the base of the wardrobe (next to the floor) lifts out and exposes the two drain cocks. These drain the pipework. The third is the hot water drain accessed by lifting the flap in the base of the wardrobe itself. This drain cock is also automated and will allow the heater to drain if the van internal temperature drops below 5 - 8 degrees. All these drain cocks, when open, drain onto the ground below the van. A further point: trying to heat the water when there's none in the system is very unlikely to cause any damage. TheTtruma heater is designed such that no harm will result.
 
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3874helen

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
53
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Brilliant, cheers Manic, I will have a look at ordering one of those and seeing if it sorts us out.
I don't know whether I'm being really daft or my system is different to everyone elses, haha, probably the first option. I've just got my camera under the boiler and the red pipe coming from the bottom of the boiler doesn't have one of those valves...it comes out of the boiler, doesn't touch the floor until the corner of the cupboard where it goes into the ground and in the direction of the shower room. There is no valve/connection or anything on there. I'll attach pics to make sure I'm looking at the right thing haha.
Thanks again Helen
 
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3874helen

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
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I think one pic shows the red pipe going through the wall into the showed room direction. One shows diff types of pipes (I don't think you mean these). Ans the last shows the red pipe going into the base of the boiler. The red pipe has no valves or connectors on it...it goes in a straight piece from the boiler into the wall. Am I looking at the right things? Cheers Helen

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3874helen

3874helen

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Thanks Tony, that's reassuring to know that I probably haven't killed my boiler, phew!
I think my system is slightly different to yours, I just can't find anywhere where the hosepipe type pipes connect to anything they're just smooth, with no breaks and then seem to go out under the shower tray. It is left hand drive if that makes any difference?
 

JFD

Apr 9, 2015
392
238
Crawley Down, West Sussex, UK
Funster No
35,784
MH
Pilote Aventura G730
Exp
since 2014!
I wonder if someone has tried to make the overflow route into the grey waste tank, with the pipe under the shower tray. If you have a mole grip, you could clamp the red pipe by the heater, then fill the water tank and turn on the pump, with taps open. That should fill the heater. Do not turn the heater on yet - if you get to the stage of water flowing out of the taps, and the pump cutting out when the taps are turned off, then the heater should be full, which you can check with the cold drain valve, which should allow water to flow. If that happens, and you should see that under the Moho, then you have proved that the relief valve needs replacing, AND that someone has routed your relief pipe into the grey water tank!

Good luck!

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XRN

Oct 10, 2014
312
294
Plymouth
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Hi Rob,

sorry I forgot to say, when you mention "You do get a lot of air out when filling, hold the shower head up and open valve also to expel air" which valve do you mean?

Thanks Helen

Open the shower valve to hot and hold the shower head vertical till water comes out without spluttering then move valve to cold and do same.
 
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3874helen

3874helen

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Lovely cheers, hopefully one of these solutions will work in the morning :):):)
 

XRN

Oct 10, 2014
312
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Hello Rob,

sorry I'm a newbie and some of this is a bit technical for me, can I just confirm what you mean on some bits before I go waving around my socket set :LOL:
Ok so I'll go and lift the blown air ventilation pipes up to look underneath...do these break pipes easily as they seem quite rigid in place?
Is the non return valve the "t valve piece"? If not what does one look like?
When you say if we don't have a non return valve fitted it can siphon back to the water tank, my boiler was completely empty, would that normally be the case? Whilst the boiler was on, heating up.....I pressed down the red valve for a few seconds to check there was in fact water in there but it had completely drained out. I don't understand how the grey water tank is filling up (I empty it after running the water through the hot taps when filling the boiler) and I come back half an hour later and it's got quite a bit of water that comes out of it and I don't see any wet patches from under the boiler on the drive.

Also just thought I should mention...we had drained the system for winter as we had quite a frost a couple of weeks ago and this the first time I've tried to use it since then. Plus I didn't drain these two red or blue cap valves as I didn't know they existed, so maybe that caused some damage under there...

Thanks for your patience - Helen

Blown air pipes are reinforced cardboard and can be delicate on an old van but should only have to move them slightly to see underneath.

There is a non return vent valve on the boiler which you have photographed (with the red pipework), if that is defective the boiler will fill up and vent through it to the floor (or waste water tank in your case if someone has rerouted it there!). The pump non return is in the water tank either as part of the pump or fitted in the pipe just after the pump. I didn't have one fitted and I had similar draining of fresh water lines and subsequent spluttering if taps not opened for a while.

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XRN

Oct 10, 2014
312
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Helen, just looked at your photos and I cannot see any blown air pipework on any photos, the black rigid pipes are the drain pipes from sinks and shower to waste water tank underneath
 

XRN

Oct 10, 2014
312
294
Plymouth
Funster No
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Hymer B680 Starline
Exp
We are no longer Newbie's.
Hi Lenny, is this what you mean (photo attached)? Its a red hose coming up to a plastic junction which goes into the top of the boiler and a clear tube going up and away from the junction. The only other red thing i can see is the button to drain the boiler.

The attached photo you sent to Lenny is the boiler vent valve, clear pipe I think should go through the floor to outside, I can check mine tomorrow but its a 680 not 544 but probably same Trumatic.
The big fat corrugated brown pipe is the blown air pipework by the way.
 
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3874helen

3874helen

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Feb 16, 2017
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I've found these sneaky pipe valves in the floor cupboard under the sink with grey and red pipes! Unless there should be some there too, in which case....I haven't found them at all. There are definitely no valves like that under the boiler. There are blown air heating brown papery pipes under there (I didn't include photos of these) and I've felt all underneath them and there are no valves on the red or grey hoses. Going to start from scratch again tomorrow just incase it's me and its just an airlock going back into the tank (although I suppose that wouldn't explain the gulping from the pipes outside under the boiler once its full). Its been a great lesson in getting to know my motorhome and hopefully I will solve it tomorrow with everyone's help/advice combined. Thanks again :roflmto:

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