Having Cab Battery problem. (1 Viewer)

[Miss Trinity]

I have a Burstner 2016 which has developed an odd electrical fault whilst parked on my drive. Initially finding the cab battery fully discharged 2 weeks ago & habitation batteries low I put it down to the extreme cold and replaced cab battery as it was 5 years old and did not respond to EHU. But the new battery now fitted is similarly showing a rapid discharge on the control panel over the habitation door. Though the tracker app shows a fully charged battery. Everything looks fine when engine is running, if a little over-charging at 14v on the panel. But within 2 hours of turning off cab battery shows flat again at under 12v even though on hook-up. Similarly once off hook-up the App shows a rapid voltage drop over the next day or so. I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who's encountered or knows where the fault may lie as I cant be without my only transport and am really struggling. Thanks all and keep safe, Trinity =",'=

 

[autorouter]

If everything is fine when the engine is running, and the habitation battery voltage is 14v then that's about what I would expect. The main fuses on the habitation battery and starter battery must be OK if they are charging from the engine.

First thing I'd do is check that the mains charger is working. I'd guess it's not working, and that could be a number of reasons. Can you confirm the EHU is working? Do the mains sockets work? Is there a light to confirm that mains power is reaching the mains charger?

Does this MH use an Electroblock; if so what model number is it? There is a fuse for the mains charger, which might be labelled 'Internes Lademodul', probably 15 or 20 amp. Do you have a multimeter to take some voltage readings?

One possibility is a fault in the mains charger, that is draining the battery. You can test this by pulling out the charger fuse - if the drain stops that confirms it..

 

[Miss Trinity]

Ya sure helped clarify my broad understanding of the charging system. And I really like your FUSE suggestion. It's a EBL99: Pb-Akku>55Ah unit if that helps and the very fuse was 20amp. Fuse now pulled, voltage readings dropped to 12.5A cab/ 13A hab. 240v sockets working fine still. Interestingly my tracker App showed cab battery at 13.9v, way higher than normal, yet panel gauges over hab door indicating 12.5v initially, but if I repeatedly pressed the test button the voltage reading crepd up to 13v. That should not happen and is at odd with App reading. I'll see what the situation is over the next few hours. Thanks =",'=
Trinity

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[autorouter]

I'm sure the control panel and tracker app give you good voltage readings when everything is working OK. However there are many possibly bad connections between them and the batteries.

When there's a fault, there's no substitute for directly measuring voltages using a multimeter. You can find out if the battery is really flat, or maybe just a bad connection to the control panel that makes it look that way.

Can you use a multimeter? Any cheap multimeter will do for the voltages you need to measure. You can get one for a tenner or less from Screwfix or Toolstation. Measuring voltages is easy and safe - 12 volts isn't enough to give you a shock.

The 'resting voltage' of a 12V battery, ie no chargers or loads connected to it, is 12.0 to 12.8V. 12.7 to 12.8V is fully charged.

If the voltage is below 12.0V, it is flatter than you'd normally like it to be, so it needs charging ASAP.

When actively charging, the voltage is 14.0 to 14.8V. When fully charged, the charger drops to 'float voltage', 13.0 to 13.8V, which keeps the battery topped up without overcharging. The exact voltages depend on the state of charge and the battery type.

So directly measuring the battery voltage when the battery is resting, charging from the engine and charging from EHU can give you a lot of information.

 

[andy63]

Another one for suggesting you need to use an separate meter to either confirm your panel voltages or not..
In your initial post you said that your electris hook up didn't recover a flat start battery..that could be quite normal..a lot of the start battery charging systems from the power supply unit are only maintenance charges designed to keep it topped up..not capable of fully recharging a flat battery..
In those instances it's best to get them charged fully with a separate charger ..
It does sound like your mains charger has stopped working if there has been a recent failure and all was OK before that..
Some solar and a battery master device fitted may be a bit help in the longer term..
Andy

 

[autorouter]

Fuse now pulled, voltage readings dropped to 12.5A cab/ 13A hab.

What were the voltages before the charger fuse was pulled?

When charging is switched off, it takes quite a long time for the battery voltage to drop back to its resting voltage, often several hours. However the fact that the voltage drops at all indicates that the mains charger is working.

This might sound a bit random, but does the fridge work from 12V when the engine is running? If not, it might be related. The fridge 12V heater element is powered from the engine alternator by a separate wire with a 20A fuse near the starter battery.

When the engine isn't running, this same wire is used to charge the starter battery from the mains charger. So if that 20A fuse blows, you lose the fridge while driving and the starter battery charging when stopped.

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[Miss Trinity]

Latest news, I think I was I initially fooled by the conflicting panel & tracker app voltage readings. Having not actually checked the batteries directly with an AVO meter till today... I know a beginners mistake grrr :-/ Having now taken readings 5 hours apart it appears cab battery is stable at 13.0v with the EBL99 charger fuse pulled out. The habitation batteries are also stable at 13.5v and the over-door panel is showing EHU is live. But the actual monitoring gauge which provides all the various readings for batteries and tank levels is now very poorly responding. It was already playing up and functioned poorly over the last month so I think its failing. Anyway I'll recheck batteries again t'row, then if all good, will disconnect the EHU before refitting the EBL99 charger fuse and see if there's any voltage drain. If ok after 6 hours, I'll give the engine a run to check the alternator is charging both sets of batteries. If that looks fine and the solar also appears to be showing a fully functional system. I will then reconnect the EHU and recheck cab battery is receiving boosted voltage. After all that i am only left with a faulty gauge on the IT 92-6 PANEL over the hab door. Let's hope it's all been a case of a dodgy gauge which I can live with for now. I really appreciate all the advise and suggestions. Its reassuring to know us lone female wanderers are not on our own in a crisis. I will know more t'row night. Would it be worth while fitting a BM2 blue tooth battery monitor to the cab battery as it's generally hidden away and would help clarify battery condition. Has anyone used one? I know digital and electronic tech is moving at a rapid pace with the introduction of Lithium batteries. Be interested to know what other Funsters do about battery monitoring. Many Thanks Trinity =",'=

 

[andy63]

Having now taken readings 5 hours apart it appears cab battery is stable at 13.0v with the EBL99 charger fuse pulled out. The habitation batteries are also stable at 13.5v and the over-door panel is showing EHU is live

those battery voltage readings indicate both your cab and hab batteries are receiving a charge from most likely your solar...thats assuming ive picked you up correctly and you have not reinstalled the fuse for the mains charger..

on the battery monitoring front..
quite a few folk have the clipper battery monitor ..BM1 or BM2... it involves installing a shunt and running wires from your battery banks to the screen but really handy for checking voltages and the net current flow on the leisure bank..
Andy

 

[Miss Trinity]

Yep, glad you confirmed the solar input. I had forgotten about that with so much to think about. And thanks for the BM2 addition. I had no idea these were about. So that will be a reassuring addition. Hopefully I will have a result regards the fault in the next 24 hours...

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[Tombola]

this works a treat for your cab battery and is easy to fit, displays and sends alerts to your phone.

Amazon product ASIN B08F9ZN5XW

 

[autorouter]

If your display panel is playing up, it's worth checking the plugs of the data cable between the EBL and the panel are pushed in properly, and not under strain. It's a 12-way connector, smaller than the other connectors, with thin wires. Check the other similar connectors for the tank and temperature sensors too.

Battery monitoring has advanced a lot recently. As well as monitors like the BM1 and 2, and the BMV 7xx types which have wired display panels, there's the Victron SmartShunt which is also wired into the battery negative wire but has no display panel - the data is displayed on a phone app via Bluetooth. So no extra wires to bother with.

There's also the Victron SmartMonitor, which sticks on the battery, and measures just voltage and temperature (not amps), again to a phone app. They are intended to coordinate with Victron solar controllers and other stuff, but they work well as stand-alone monitors too.

Are you aware that you can download the manual for the EBL99, including the wiring diagram, from the Schaudt website? The site's in German, but there are English manuals available. You select the manual for download, enter your email address and they email a download link, usually within a couple of minutes.

 

[donkey]

this works a treat for your cab battery and is easy to fit, displays and sends alerts to your phone.

Amazon product ASIN B08F9ZN5XW

Hi Tombola

I looked at those as a way of monitoring some batteries, but it was amphours as well as volts I wanted to monitor. The BM2 only monitors volts.
Also, you say it sends alerts to your phone?
I may be wrong but I can,t see that it has the capability to do this, as its only output is via bluetooth, so you would need to be within a few feet of the vehicle to receive any information.
Geoff

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[Richard n Ann]

Hi Tombola

I looked at those as a way of monitoring some batteries, but it was amphours as well as volts I wanted to monitor. The BM2 only monitors volts.
Also, you say it sends alerts to your phone?
I may be wrong but I can,t see that it has the capability to do this, as its only output is via bluetooth, so you would need to be within a few feet of the vehicle to receive any information.
Geoff

Yes you have to be in Bluetooth range. Mine sends a report every 24hr, got one on the car and van

 

[Tombola]

Hi Tombola

I looked at those as a way of monitoring some batteries, but it was amphours as well as volts I wanted to monitor. The BM2 only monitors volts.
Also, you say it sends alerts to your phone?
I may be wrong but I can,t see that it has the capability to do this, as its only output is via bluetooth, so you would need to be within a few feet of the vehicle to receive any information.
Geoff

yes sorry I meant via buetooth. If your van is in storage not too helpful. That said, it reaches via my drive from inside my house about 30-35 feet away, which is better than the victron app i have installed.

 

[Miss Trinity]

Gee wow, I had no idea. Such monitoring devices would sure help ease my concerns, and I will definitely invest in one with a little more research. Anyway back to me battery issue. It now appears all batteries are good, are not discharging when not on EHU or solar and do receive a charge from the EHU, Solar and alternator. I am finally left with a rogue gauge on the over habitation door monitoring panel IT96-2 which over reads on EHU & when engine is running yet shows negligible reading for the cab battery when not receiving a charge. I've checked all the EBL99 connectors and fuses as suggested but cant find anything wrong. Is this just a passing glitch through lack of use or something to be concerned with. At least I now know my Burstner is safe to drive and I will speak with my dealer in the morning to figure out my options. I take it i now no longer need to involve fiat Professional in this saga? Phew. Cheers Funsters, you have been immensely helpful and thoughtful too. Tis muchly appreciated, kind regards Trinity

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[autorouter]

I looked at those as a way of monitoring some batteries, but it was amphours as well as volts I wanted to monitor. The BM2 only monitors volts.

There's two basic types of battery monitor. The simpler less expensive one measures volts, but not amps.It has a thin positive and negative wire to the battery terminals.

The more complex type measures volts and amps, and also has a microchip with a clock, so it can measure the amps minute by minute. From this it calculates the amp-hours going into and out of the battery, and can show the percentage state of charge quite accurately. These monitors are wired into the main battery current, usually at the battery negative terminal. This process is referred to as amp-hour counting or coulomb-counting.

The BM2 in the link above is the simpler voltage-only type. There is another called the NASA BM-2 which is the amp-hour counting type. It confused me at first, too. The Victron BMV 7xx and SmartShunt are also amp-hour counting types.

 

[donkey]

Hi Autorouter

Yes, I have one bought from China, now there's a surprise.

I find it extremely useful for carrying out capacity checks on batteries. It shows SOC in volts, kwhrs, amps, amhrs, time and resistance
I have 100amp and 200amp shunts.
To carry out a capacity check, I just charge, leave to settle, then introduce a load. The monitor calculates the amhrs drawn and I can clearly see the lapsed time. Also good because with heat etc, the load current can vary, but as it is calculating total amps drawn, it remains accurate. I always stop at 11v, so I can compare capacities between various batteries.
It came in very useful when I purchased a pair of AGMs for my mobility scooter, from one of the major battery suppliers. They were sold as 105ah, but I could clearly show they were nowhere near that. they very quickly collected the batteries and gave me a full refund.
My only criticism is that the amp hours does not differentiate between amps being drawn and amps being charged. So to know how much I am putting back in, I first need to zero the readings, takes about 5 seconds to do.

Geoff