Habitation Battery failing to charge (1 Viewer)

[Saltings]

Hi,have just joined the forum and am hoping someone has the answer to this prob.

Model is a Chasson C626 Flash '14 Reg.with 110 A Habitation battery. During winter of '15-'16 solar panel kept this fully charged. This last winter there was no charge at all. Ducato motor batt. reads 11.8v, hab. battery 1.88v, solar cells 21 vs.

Took it to our local dealer and they said oold battery had a dead cell (as it is a sealed battery I fail to know how they new). Changed this for new battery (£200) but that is now also reading 1.8v (and I am £200 lighter). Kept old battery and charged it with my Cetek and it has been reading a constant 13.3vs for the last week.So it seems totally healthy.

Firstly has anyone any idea what is causing the problem(s) and secondly how do you remove the front seat in the Chasson to be able to charge the battery! have thought of taking the fuse out from the wire that leads to the +ive terminal and then adding the -ive contact to metal that leads to the -ive terminal.

But the thought of leaving this on when the Cetek becomes warm during the early stages of charging inside such an expensive vehicle makes me shudder!
Help would be appreciated - am sure it is something simple and hundreds have had the same problem no doubt.

Thanks for reading this folks.

 

[Jaws]

Sounds like the fault is not actually the battery, but the connection between the battery and the control panel/hab area
That would explain the very low reading ( which MUST be wrong as any battery that went that low would not have recovered the way it has ) and the fact it is not actually charging

 

[Saltings]

Hi Jaws
The reading via a voltmeter is actually reading 1.8 vs in two places - across the wires leading from the two hab. terminals and across the two screws on the Solar Charger which also gives accurate readings for the motor battery and the solar panel. Are you saying that if it has gone that low it could not possibly re-charge?

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[Jaws]

Hi Jaws
The reading via a voltmeter is actually reading 1.8 vs in two places - across the wires leading from the two hab. terminals and across the two screws on the Solar Charger which also gives accurate readings for the motor battery and the solar panel. Are you saying that if it has gone that low it could not possibly re-charge?

Pretty much.. once a lead acid battery drops below about 9v it is rare for one to come back to life properly..

You say the readings are 1.8v in two places.. But have you actually put the probes ON the battery terminals ?

Are you going to Peterborough at all ? If you are I would be happy to take a gander and run a meter over things

 

[Saltings]

Thanks for your offer, but she is off the road at the moment untaxed. The problem with trying to read between the two terminals is they are under the front seat. The nearest I could get was the +ive lead coming from the battery just by the 20 amp fuse with the -ive on a piece of metal that clipped onto the terminal.
Not only was it under the seat but they also have covers on the terminals to ensure you can't read from them!

Thanks once again.

 

[Saltings]

What is the best way of checking the voltage can remain constant on the old battery that is reading 13.3 vs? I want to add a load to it to just ensure it will last, and if it doesn't at least we know it is U.S. and can be written off.

Not that that solves this habitation battery problem. I am checking the fuses between the solar charger and the battery again as well as test the mains supply (through its contact in the motorhome) to see if that ups the voltage in the Ducato battery from its present 11.8 vs reading.

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[Jaws]

Headlight bulb..
Most are 55w so that would give you roughly 4.5 amp draw.
After about ten hours that would give a 45 amp draw.. should get the battery down to ABOUT 12.1 to 12.2 v

BTW, the fact the solar panel is reading 21v indicates further the battery(s) are not actually connected to the system as they are running free

 

[Saltings]

Hi
I think I may at last have discovered the main fuses or relays.The one by the Solar Controller (see pic.) I have inspected this and the 5 A fuse is removable whereas the 50 A is not. I have found an identical relay* that may well house fuses as it is marked in a similar way. I have attached pictures of both so perhaps you would like to comment on these.
Also attached pics of electrics layout and one of wires leading from front of battery under drivers seat to a yellow connector that comes from the +ive terminal to a 20 A fuse. No fuse on the -ive wire. On the back of the drivers seat there is a picture of another connector that comes from the battery charger via the relay* to the habitation battery terminals.
My thoughts were one of these relays is for the motor battery (prob. the one near the Solar Controller) and the other for the habitation battery. The latter is almost impossible to get to as it is right behind the drivers seat.
If you think my idea is correct how do we check the 50 amp fuse?

Here's a key to pics:
1. Relay behind driver and next to hab. battery
2. Relay under Solar Controller
3. Wires at front of drivers seat with 20 amp fuse in blue
4. Grey connector and wires leading from the electrics to the hab. battery
5. Overall view of electrics layout

Thanks for helping once again.

 

[andy63]

have attached pictures of both so perhaps you would like to comment on these.

The two relay boxes in your picture,ie one on the bulkhead and the other on the floor beneath the solar controller are the main relays which
1.. connect the engine and hab batteries when your engine is running.. to allow charging of hab battery via the alternator.
2 ..the other is switched from your control panel and supplies power from your hab battery to your 12v distribution system...
If you start your engine you should hear at least one of them clicking in..
Again if you switch on your control panel and listen carefully you will hear a click from a relay...
If I remember correctly the 5a fuse protects the relay coil circuits and the 50A fuse (which I thought was removable ) the main circuit through the relay...
Unless you are not seeing a rise in your battery voltages when the engine is running then all is well there..
As long as your solar controller is connected directly to the batteries and does not go through the management panel then the other relay that connects the hab electrics should not come into play with your problem..
Haven't got my van handy to check but your control panel may have to be switched on to allow the mains charger to charge the hab battery... I can't remember if that's the case
I'm still can't see how both solar and mains charger are not working... John mentioned that they could be connected to the battery via a common wire and if the inline fuse has gone that would explain things but one is an original fit and I assumed the solar would be an aftermarket job and unlikely to use the same connection....
Hope you can get to bottom of it ... you will know your electrical system a bit better by the time you have finished
Andy

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[Saltings]

Hi Andy
We will try your idea of starting the motor whilst I listen for the relay to kick in and see what happens. Will also double check to see if the 50 amp fuse is removable.

Can't understand why they didn't build the battery in beneath the side seat behind the driver - should be plenty of room there. maybe the French like to put us to the test.

 

[Saltings]

Hi Andy

Started the motor this morning but no sound from relay 1 (on bulkhead). On second attempt thought there was a very faint clicking from relay 2.

Voltage with engine running was just over 14 vs measured on the contacts beneath the Solar Controller. Dropped back to 12.3 vs when engine was turned off.

Have used the ehu (checked this wire but voltmeter "prongs" are too short to properly meet the internal contacts) this morning and will try to see if there is even the slighest change in the voltage on either battery. It is sunny and the cells are generating just over 21 vs so one of the methods should work.

One worrying aspect is that the hab. battery voltage has dropped slightly overnight from 1.88 to 1.83 vs.

Cheers
Saltings.

 

[andy63]

Hi..again just to be clear..
The voltage you are noting at 14 odd volts is on which battery...
It should be that on both batteries... ie engine and habitation...
If it's only on the vehicle battery that would indicate the batteries are not been connected via the relay...
Again on ehu if your mains charger is working and switched on you would expect to see a similar voltage on the hab battery and the start battery is I think supposed to receive a charge when the hab battery voltage is at a certain level...
I think that's the case on my chausson but can't say for sure on yours..
Your solar should also be producing a healthy voltage on hab and start battery, but as it's a dual battery controller I'm not sure how it's set up...
Think you are going to have to check all the connections to your batteries...and if your hab battery is 1.8v see if you can get it charged asap and hope it recovers.
Seat removal time me thinks...
Andy

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[pappajohn]

Voltage with engine running was just over 14 vs measured on the contacts beneath the Solar Controller. Dropped back to 12.3 vs when engine was turned off.

As you have 14v at the controller terminals with the engine running that indicates the wiring is connected to the battery and OK so I suspect the controller circuit to the hab battery has failed internally.
carefully swap centre 2 wires with 2 right hand wires at the controller to confirm.
If it begins charging the hab battery my suspicions are correct.

 

[andy63]

suspect the controller circuit to the hab battery has failed internally.
carefully swap centre 2 wires with 2 right hand wires at the controller to confirm.
If it begins charging the hab battery my suspicions are correct.

Hi john. .. do you not think that it's more than just the solar controller that's the problem... I'm reading it that he is possibly not getting any charge to the hab side regardless of charging source...
With his engine running he is at least getting 14 volts on most probably his start battery but the hab battery should be connected to the start battery as well...
If the hab battery isn't receiving a charge from any source it may be worth checking the connections to that battery..
Andy.

 

[Saltings]

Hi John and Andy

Just to clarify I am getting just over 14 vs to the motor battery only (not the hab battery) with the alternator charging.

Before I start changing wires around (which I don't feel too confident about yet!) I need simple instructions as to which ones.

From L to R the first two connect to the solar panel (charging at 21 vs), the second two are for battery 1 (motor battery) and the final 2 are for battery 2 (hab battery). Can't recall off hand which is +ive and which is -ive but the voltmeter will tell me with its voltage or - voltage readings.

I would like to check the connections to the battery but that means removing the seat, which is a two man job. The Flash 626 has 2 bolts at the rear of each front seat support (4 in total) and then one grub screw at the front of the supports. Beneath the seat the cables come from the battery charger and are connected to the hab battery with a slott-in switch. I have disconnected and then re-connected this in case it was faulty. There were no readings there at all. Also under the front seat is a thinner grey cable that is attached to what looks like a multi-pin socket similar to the ones used prior to USB's being used on PC's etc. This is not connected to anything.

Andy - with regard to charging each battery I think our Chasson is the same as yours, in so far as it will charge the motor battery up to a defined level after which it switches to the hab battery and then does a balancing act between the two to ensure they both remain charged.

To save the "new" hab battery I am going to charge it with my Cetek charger which does a Recon as it charges. Luckily dry for the moment so can take the extension wire through the cab window. is it possible to charge from battery to battery - the "old" hab battery reads 13.3 vs

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[Saltings]

Hi John

To return to your idea of changing the two centre wires (charging battery 1 {motor batt}) to the two right hand wires (that charge batt 2 {hab batt}) am I correct in assuming these just unscrew as per a 3 pin plug connectors?

Sorry to appear dim but although I understand the logic I wish to be 100% certain prior to going ahead!

 

[Saltings]

Hi

After using the ehu and solar panels all day have checked the battery voltages and they have changed slightly as follows:
At 11.00 am
Hab batt:

 

[Saltings]

Hi

After using the ehu and solar panels all day have checked the battery voltages and they have changed slightly as follows:
At 11.00 am
Hab batt:1.83 vs
Solar cells: 21 vs
Motor batt: 12.3 vs

At 16.00:
Hab batt: 1.82 vs
Solar cells: 20.05
Motor batt: 12.52

So although it is only a little, the motor battery is receiving a charge and the hab batt is still losing to something and definitely not receiving a charge from either the ehu or the solar cells.

Will attempt to get a contact onto the +ive of the hab battery from terminal under the seat by the 20 amp +ive fuse and attach the -ive to a metal plate attached to the -ive terminal, prior to loosing everything.

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[andy63]

Just to clarify I am getting just over 14 vs to the motor battery only (not the hab battery) with the alternator charging.

Leave the solar for a min...
That's not right... ..both batteries should be linked when the engine starts.. so regardless of solar there's a problem with one of your relays...whether it's not linking because it sense's a very low hab battery or its another fault I wouldn't like to say..
That's for starters lol...
Will look in later. .. got to go get my case off a baggage carousel. .
Andy..

 

[Saltings]

Cheers, don't loose the baggage for goodness sake!

 

[andy63]

Cheers, don't loose the baggage for goodness sake!

Lol got it ..
What I'm getting at is your hab battery appears to be dead. . Ie 1.8v... none of the charging sources are doing anything...
I think you need to check the connector to that battery...
I'll leave it at that
Andy.

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[Saltings]

Hi Andy

Cheers and thanks for all the time and advice given.

Hab battery is now on Cetek mains charger to try to recover it. Once that is properly charged can put my mind to finding out why the solar cells and mains will not charge it - as you say poss faulty relay.

Thanks again.

 

[pappajohn]

Hi

After using the ehu and solar panels all day have checked the battery voltages and they have changed slightly as follows:
At 11.00 am
Hab batt:1.83 vs
Solar cells: 21 vs
Motor batt: 12.3 vs

At 16.00:
Hab batt: 1.82 vs
Solar cells: 20.05
Motor batt: 12.52

So although it is only a little, the motor battery is receiving a charge and the hab batt is still losing to something and definitely not receiving a charge from either the ehu or the solar cells.

Will attempt to get a contact onto the +ive of the hab battery from terminal under the seat by the 20 amp +ive fuse and attach the -ive to a metal plate attached to the -ive terminal, prior to loosing everything.

Back to square one then.
I misunderstood thinking there was 14v at the controller terminal 5 & 6 with the engine running.
When the sun shows its face again unplug hook up and check voltage at terminals 5 & 6.
Should be around 13 to 14v with good sun.
That should confirm the solar is working and the battery is in circuit.
20 plus volts indicates the battery is NOT in circuit and somewhere between the controller and hab battery there is a break (open circuit). Could be a blown fuse or broken/disconnected wire somewhere inbetween.
I'm still convinced there's a common wiring connection between solar and hook up BEFORE to the hab battery which is at fault as it doesn't charge on either source. Whoever fitted the panel could have tapped into the charger wire for ease (laziness) of connecting and the charger wire should have a fuse near the battery...which if blown will kill both solar and charger supply.
You really need to get the seat out and check everything under there.
Unless the design has changed in recent years there are 2 x 13mm bolts at the front (on the front face of the seat base) and 2 x Allan bolts within the seat runners at the back.
No idea what the grub screw does so just remove those four and see if it will lift off.....it's heavy and awkward.
Also check for any wiring connected to the seat for occupancy sensors for airbags/seatbelt warning etc.

 

[Saltings]

Hi Andy
Managed last night to get the Cetek charger attached to the +ive and -ive terminals of the hab battery that was reading 1.82 vs. It began charging at 1 (on a scale of 1 to 8). This morning the Cetek was showing a fault and would not charge possibly due to poor connections at the terminals, excess sulphate on the plates. Tried repeatedly to re-connect without any luck.

Re: removing the seat, ours is held on the runners with two bolts on each runner at the rear (4 in total) with a large Allan bolt at the front of the runner. I am not certain about any airbag/safety belt connections yet.

Readings this morning with the sun out: solar cells: 21 vs, motor battery (at Solar Charger Controller) 12.3 vs and hab battery 1.82 vs. So judging from what you mention above although we are getting 21 vs at the Controller nothing is going to the hab battery and possibly nothing to the motor battery as it is only 12.3 not 12.7. As you say poss a blown fuse or poss the relay on the bulkhead has a 50 amp fuse that has gone. The latter is in such an awkward place I haven't taken the lid off this yet but will try. Why the battery isn't under the side seat behind the driver and the relay on the floor next to the other relay beats me.

Will keep in touch after looking at the relays to see if there is a removable fuse that has gone.

In the meantime many thanks for all you help and guidance - it really is very much appreciated.

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[andy63]

Hi Andy
Managed last night to get the Cetek charger attached to the +ive and -ive terminals of the hab battery that was reading 1.82 vs. It began charging at 1 (on a scale of 1 to 8). This morning the Cetek was showing a fault and would not charge possibly due to poor connections at the terminals, excess sulphate on the plates. Tried repeatedly to re-connect without any luck.

I'm not sure where you made the charger connections but from what you say it looks like sooner or later you are going to have to get to that battery and check the connections....

Re: removing the seat, ours is held on the runners with two bolts on each runner at the rear (4 in total) with a large Allan bolt at the front of the runner. I am not certain about any airbag/safety belt connections yet.

I'm sure my seats are removed by removing 4 bolts...one at each end of the seat runners.. the whole seat complete with swivels comes out leaving the seat plinth..
You will have to remove the seat belt anchorage if you want to move the seat any distance..
my hab batteries are under the passage seat ,the vehicle battery under the drivers... that's on a ford Base.

The relays I refered to in the photograph yesterday one of which connects the two batteries ie hab and start when the engine is running may need looking at but from everything you have said my first priority would be to get at your hab battery so that you can check/trace back the wires from there to the different charging sources... none of which appear to be working...
I can't think of anything else
Andy.

 

[Saltings]

Hi Andy
Many thanks. I am speaking to the technician who fitted the battery Thursday a.m. in the hope that he may throw some light on the charging problems.

We also have the question of why was lack of electrical charge not put right when the Chasson was with them in March. Just adding a new battery doesn't cure the problem, only costs money. Their Job Card (15/03/17) actually says "CHARGING SYSTEM ERROR - No fault found - faulty battery. Replace battery. Monbat 110LB Battery".

After having spoken to him we can put our minds on taking the seat out.

Cheers
S.

 

[denisejoe]

You say 21volts of solar that must be the 2 wires from the solar panel What are the other readings from the two wires to the hab and two to engine bat at the regulator if it's 21v at either of these your controller is kaput

Joe

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[Saltings]

Hi Joe

The readings at the Solar Controller today are as follows:

SP: 21.2 vs
Motor battery: 12.3 vs
Hab battery: 1.82 vs

Tried charging the hab battery with ehu and solar panels - no joy. Tried re-charging it with Cetek charger on clips by the terminals and it shows a fault due to either poor connection (batt. is under the drivers seat and terminals cannot be reached properly) or excess sulphur on the plates due to it being so low.

This is a brand new battery put in by the dealers in mid March who also said there were no electronic faults!

 

[Saltings]

Hi Andy and others who have helped,

My Chasson Manual has under "Operation of Appliances" PC150 & 180 TR Functions the following note:

Low Voltage Control:
An electronic device cuts out all 12V uses when the auxilliary battery reaches the minimum level of 10V.

This may be the reason why the mains and the SC's are not charging the hab battery. The technician who fitted this I have spoken to this morning and apart from saying he knew more about caravans than motorhomes, (suggesting I contact the local Chasson dealerwires) suggested changing the wires over on the Solar Charge Controller so that if the SP is charging the motor battery it will then charge the hab battery instead. i.e. swap wires 3 & 4 (motor battery) for wires 5 & 6.

So I have done this, left the mains charging (for the moment), and will see if the SP increases the voltage in the hab battery.

Readings at the moment are:
SC's: 21.2 vs
Main battery: 1.84 vs (this did read 12.5 prior to changing the wires over)
Hab battery: 12.5 vs

The other alternative is to "trick" the mains into thinking it was charging/topping up a full battery by linking up my "old" hab battery, (that is fully charged), with the "new" but flat, battery. Yet to try this approach.

However none of these get to the bottom of the problem really - why did the cells not charge the habitation battery. I did ask about fuses in the relays and these (50 amp) fuses do not just unplug. If anyone know how they are tested and changed I would like to know.

 

[denisejoe]

Something is reading wrong somewhere are you using a multi meter. Try disconnecting the wires from the solar controller and see what the battery readings are

Joe

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